Will Roger Maris ever get into the HOF?

[UKCardGuy]

So what do you think?

To me, he seems like one of the major omissions from Cooperstown. While you could argue that he had a too few great seasons, I'd argue that there are lesser players in the HOF.

I'm not arguing that he's at the same level as the likes of Ruth, Gehrig and Aaron. But is he really less deserving than Richie Ashburn, Ron Santo and Bill Mazeroski?

If he's ever elected to Cooperstown, would a bump in his card prices likely follow?

Let the debate begin!

[John1941]

No, I don't think he will ever make it to the Hall. And I don't think he deserves it either. I really like Maris, but the thing is is that Maris had 2 great seasons and 3 very good seasons. Ashburn had 3 great seasons, more than Maris, and 6 very good seasons. Santo had 5 great seasons, and 4 very good seasons. I'm not gonna compare him to Mazeroski, because I'm not sure Maz belongs in the Hall either, but overall I'd say 2 great seasons don't make a hall of famer.

[jayshum]

Maris is not a Hall of Famer. Yes, he had 2 great years and won 2 MVP awards, but he only played 12 seasons and had a total of 1325 hits and 275 home runs with a .260 career batting average. Dale Murphy also won 2 MVP awards but had a much longer career (18 years), 2111 hits, 398 home runs and a .265 career batting average, and he didn't come close to getting the the Hall of Fame. The only reason Maris is talked about for the Hall of Fame is for hitting 61 home runs in a season. One great feat doesn't make you a Hall of Famer.

[D. Bergin]

As a Yankee fan and as a Roger Maris fan, I say no.

If he somehow does make the Hall, there will be a bump simply because it will be surprising, but Roger's card already carries a premium above many other HOF'ers because of his milestones and overall popularity in the hobby.

I think, especially in the last couple years, several popular, but not HOF caliber players have seen a bump, even beyond many established HOF'ers. Especially when it comes to their "Rookie" cards.

I think it's a good thing. As collectors age, they're becoming more intrigued by players that captured their imagination in their younger days.

Yankees have several other examples: Mattingly, Munson, Randolph, Guidry

A few on other teams off the top of my head, I've noticed movement on: Mark Fidrych, Fernando Valenzuela, Bobby Grich, Dwight Evans, Jose Canseco


I'm sure a few of those guys are because of anticipation of one day getting in the Hall........especially after the Baines enshrinement...........but certainly not all of them.

I'm sure there's lots more examples.

[egri]

I don't see it. He was a good player who had a couple great seasons, but if Maris had hit 59 home runs that year, we wouldn't be having this conversation. At least not while sober.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by egri

I don't see it. He was a good player who had a couple great seasons, but if Maris had hit 59 home runs that year, we wouldn't be having this conversation. At least not while sober.

Agreed. I almost included the exact same thing in my earlier post but then deleted it.

[UKCardGuy]

I completely get the points above. But somehow it just doesn't sit right with me. He may have had only a few great seasons but WOW weren't they great.

3x World Series Champion (the last being with the Cards)
7x All-star
2x MVP

I look at some of other names in the HOF and really can't understand the disparity. I mean Fergie Jenkins....really???? I remember watching him during the 70s. Nobody I knew considered him a star. Yet there he is in the HOF.

It seems to me that if you had a longer fairly average career that allowed you to rack up some career totals, you have a shot at the HOF. Somehow, it it doesn't seem right.

Even Nellie Fox (and I love Nellie)...is he really that much better than Maris?

[Frankish]

Very interesting question. Personally, I think Maris should have been elected to the HOF a long time ago. That said, I doubt he will be now and each year that passes seems to make it less likely, as generations of players change and baseball moves on.

I understand and appreciate all of the points made to the contrary. My own opinion is that long and consistent careers are overweighted in HOF selections. The length and/or consistency of some careers is remarkable but many HOFers are simply top 5% players that maintained that level of play over a healthy career. Nothing wrong with that. But I think the HOF should have room for the record-shatterers, the boundary breakers, etc. It is after all the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Consistent High-Level Execution.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I completely get the points above. But somehow it just doesn't sit right with me. He may have had only a few great seasons but WOW weren't they great.

3x World Series Champion (the last being with the Cards)
7x All-star
2x MVP

I look at some of other names in the HOF and really can't understand the disparity. I mean Fergie Jenkins....really???? I remember watching him during the 70s. Nobody I knew considered him a star. Yet there he is in the HOF.

It seems to me that if you had a longer fairly average career that allowed you to rack up some career totals, you have a shot at the HOF. Somehow, it it doesn't seem right.

Even Nellie Fox (and I love Nellie)...is he really that much better than Maris?

People who didn't consider Jenkins a star were wrong.

[mortimer brewster]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

But is he really less deserving than Richie Ashburn, Ron Santo and Bill Mazeroski?

If he's ever elected to Cooperstown, would a bump in his card prices likely follow?

Let the debate begin!

The reason why the above mention players and guys like Rizzuto got into the Hall of fame is because they never left the public eye. They were sportscasters or broadcasters for their respective teams. Maz even had his own Magazine for years. Santo even openly campaigned for inclusion into the Hall. They were ambassadors of the game and were wildly popular with the fans.

This point was illustrated in the NFL last year when Bill "I am on the CBS pregame show every week" Cowher and Jimmy "Fox Network" Johnson were elected to the Hall of Fame, where Tom Flores 2 time Super Bowl winning coach with the Raiders was barely given consideration.

Maris was not associated with the game after he retired. He valued his privacy. Also, if he hit the 61 home runs playing for the Washington Senators there would be no Hall of fame discussion.

[packs]

I think he valued his privacy for a reason. People were threatening to kill him for hitting home runs. Not exactly a welcoming atmosphere for the guy. Winning back to back MVPs isn't an automatic HOF resume (Dale Murphy, for example) but it is also quite the feat.

I do not believe the HOF would be watered down with Maris in it. His 1961 season was one of the greatest seasons any player has ever had.

[UKCardGuy]

I wish the criteria for voting was more transparent. Koufax valued his privacy after retirement and it didn't impact his induction.

If players have a great broadcasting career then let them get into the Broadcasting Hall of Fame. But if middlng players with ho-hum records can get inducted and record breakers can't, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I remember Fergie Jenkins playing for the Rangers when I was a kid in Dallas. We were pretty disappointed when it was Fergie's turn in the rotation. 4.07 ERA in 1979...need I say more?

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I wish the criteria for voting was more transparent. Koufax valued his privacy after retirement and it didn't impact his induction.

If players have a great broadcasting career then let them get into the Broadcasting Hall of Fame. But if middlng players with ho-hum records can get inducted and record breakers can't, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I remember Fergie Jenkins playing for the Rangers when I was a kid in Dallas. We were pretty disappointed when it was Fergie's turn in the rotation. 4.07 ERA in 1979...need I say more?

I'm not sure why you're picking on Fergie Jenkins, but from 1967 to 1974, he won 20 or more games every year but one, won a Cy Young award, finished second twice and third twice for the Cy Young. By 1979, he was 36 years old, but the season before, he was 18-8 with a 3.04 ERA. When Maris was 36, he had been out of baseball for 3 years. There are definitely some pitchers in the Hall of Fame who don't belong there, but I don't think Fergie Jenkins is one of them.

[Touch'EmAll]

Can't wait to see the plaque of Harold Baines. And while I am visiting, didn't I hear of some guy who broke Babe Ruth's record - please direct me to his plaque.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

Can't wait to see the plaque of Harold Baines. And while I am visiting, didn't I hear of some guy who broke Babe Ruth's record - please direct me to his plaque.

I agree that Harold Baines doesn't deserve a plaque, but just because he got in, it doesn't mean Maris should. I would guess there is plenty more in the museum part of the Hall of Fame about Roger Maris than there is Harold Baines even if Maris doesn't have a plaque.

[toppcat]

He needed another 2-3 top years IMO and also raked in what were two expansion years, so there is some dilution there of MLB talent.

Two guys who really should be in are both second basemen: Bobby Grich and (especially) Lou Whitaker.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

So what do you think?

To me, he seems like one of the major omissions from Cooperstown. While you could argue that he had a too few great seasons, I'd argue that there are lesser players in the HOF.

I'm not arguing that he's at the same level as the likes of Ruth, Gehrig and Aaron. But is he really less deserving than Richie Ashburn, Ron Santo and Bill Mazeroski?

If he's ever elected to Cooperstown, would a bump in his card prices likely follow?

Let the debate begin!

Hello, Gary. Nice post from our "resident" London mate. I began becoming aware of baseball and collecting cards of the players in 1961. Roger Maris became a hero of mine that year, and I've never thrust him aside as a hero. I fully agree with you, Gary; Roger Maris belongs in the Baseball Hall of Fame. The arguments against him are compelling, while some are immature. I won't discredit anyone else's admission to the BBHOF. I for one believe one outstanding season should carry more weight than what it does. Had Rog hit 59, we wouldn't be talking about the matter.

Really? What a hollow argument.

The fact Mr. Maris broke the record in more games than the Babe has been de-bunked sufficiently. The fact that it was an expansion year is true, yet the opportunity for record numbers was out there for every player, but only Roger Maris was able to break baseball's most revered single-season record. The man did this under some of the most trying, stressful, and discouraging conditions. How he held up is anyone's guess, but his devotion to his family, his team, and his personal drive to do his dead level best every game, no matter what the press threw at him, is the height of courage.

They call it a hall of fame. Roger Maris earned more fame than half the enshrinees in that one season. Same with Gil Hodges managing the Amazing Mets of 1969, and yet he's not in, either. Same with Bobby Thomson's Shot Heard Round the World magical one-game moment, but it wasn't enough to elect him. Granted, where would Hack Wilson, Dizzy Dean, and Big Ed Walsh be without their Mount Everest years? So? That's irrelevant; their career year made such a huge impression on the voters that they enshrined them, whether while they were alive or almost forgotten.

The guys who vote players in nowadays demand big numbers from a couple decades, with lots of rings, or lots of league leaderships. I'm not saying they're entirely wrong, but I'm with you, Gary; when a player plays his heart out trying to bust the Babe's "sacred" record of 60 homers in a season, AND DOES IT, it sure says a lot about the people involved with the sport, and its fans, who decide that man doesn't deserve to be in the BBHOF.

As our Exhibit expert said, collectors have priced him as a Hall of Famer, 'cause a bunch of us, including me, value Roger Maris as a Hall of Famer.

Back to the OP question. No, Gary, I don't think the BBHOF Veterans Committee will elect Roger Maris. I'll be mighty pleased if they do, and scream, "Well, it's about time!!!!!" However, given the value system of today, and the fact that ball-less MLB has never addressed the matter of the players who achieved moon-shot record years due to their shooting up with steroids, I guess Roger's memory will continue to be cherished by his devoted fans who have their rich patina plaques of Roger Maris entrenched in their hearts and minds until they die.

That's my nickel pack's worth. Keep enjoying Roger Maris cardboard, Gary!

--- Brian Powell

[toppcat]

It would be interesting if the HOF ever decided to honor meritorious individual seasons or feats with some kind of honor. You could have things like No Hit Vandermeer's back to backs, Maris in '61, etc.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by toppcat

It would be interesting if the HOF ever decided to honor meritorious individual seasons or feats with some kind of honor. You could have things like No Hit Vandermeer's back to backs, Maris in '61, etc.

This is already done in the museum portion of the Hall of Fame. The plaque gallery contains plaques for the inducted Hall of Famers. The rest of the museum contains plenty of information, displays and memorabilia recognizing the history of baseball including records, individual feats and accomplishments, etc.

[Popcorn]

I’m usually tuff on HOF inductees but I think he deserves it. They basically “maris” proofed baseball after his 61 season.

The hr record was always the most important stat in sports for a 100 years and he owned it. I’d put him in.

[brian1961]

Hey Gary, that's a nifty Roger Maris Hartland Statue, introduced in 1961 I believe, right after Roger's 1960 MVP season. The company did the same for the National League MVP, Dick Groat. Groat is the most notorious scarcity among Hartland baseball statues.

It was about 1971 or 72. A cross-country buddy of mine, Fred, had me over for supper. I noticed he had a Roger Maris Hartland on display, which immediately caught my interest. All alone, it was probably a cherished childhood gift that still meant something to him. Anyways, I tried a couple of times that evening to get him to sell it to me. He quietly refused each time----good for him! Deep down, I wouldn't want to deprive a dear friend of something that meant a lot to him. As it turned out, that was the closest I ever came to a Maris Hartland. I hope my buddy Fred is doing well, and still has his Hartland Rajah! Thanks for showing that beautiful statue to us, Gary. All the best to you, Brian Powell

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by brian1961

Hello, Gary. Nice post from our "resident" London mate. I began becoming aware of baseball and collecting cards of the players in 1961. Roger Maris became a hero of mine that year, and I've never thrust him aside as a hero. I fully agree with you, Gary; Roger Maris belongs in the Baseball Hall of Fame. The arguments against him are compelling, while some are immature. I won't discredit anyone else's admission to the BBHOF. I for one believe one outstanding season should carry more weight than what it does. Had Rog hit 59, we wouldn't be talking about the matter.

Really? What a hollow argument.

The fact Mr. Maris broke the record in more games than the Babe has been de-bunked sufficiently. The fact that it was an expansion year is true, yet the opportunity for record numbers was out there for every player, but only Roger Maris was able to break baseball's most revered single-season record. The man did this under some of the most trying, stressful, and discouraging conditions. How he held up is anyone's guess, but his devotion to his family, his team, and his personal drive to do his dead level best every game, no matter what the press threw at him, is the height of courage.

They call it a hall of fame. Roger Maris earned more fame than half the enshrinees in that one season. Same with Gil Hodges managing the Amazing Mets of 1969, and yet he's not in, either. Same with Bobby Thomson's Shot Heard Round the World magical one-game moment, but it wasn't enough to elect him. Granted, where would Hack Wilson, Dizzy Dean, and Big Ed Walsh be without their Mount Everest years? So? That's irrelevant; their career year made such a huge impression on the voters that they enshrined them, whether while they were alive or almost forgotten.

The guys who vote players in nowadays demand big numbers from a couple decades, with lots of rings, or lots of league leaderships. I'm not saying they're entirely wrong, but I'm with you, Gary; when a player plays his heart out trying to bust the Babe's "sacred" record of 60 homers in a season, AND DOES IT, it sure as anything says a lot about the people involved with the sport and its fans that that man doesn't deserve to be in the BBHOF.

As our Exhibit expert said, collectors have priced him as a Hall of Famer, 'cause a bunch of us, including me, value Roger Maris as a Hall of Famer.

Back to the OP question. No, Gary, I don't think the BBHOF Veterans Committee will elect Roger Maris. I'll be mighty pleased if they do, and scream, "Well, it's about time!!!!!" However, given the value system of today, and the fact that ball-less MLB has never addressed the matter of the records of players who achieved moon-shot record years due to their shooting up with steroids, I guess Roger's memory will continue to be cherished by his devoted fans who will have their rich patina plaques of Roger Maris entrenched in their hearts and minds until they die.

That's my nickel pack's worth. Keep enjoying Roger Maris cardboard, Gary!

--- Brian Powell

Thanks Brian. I agree with everything you said.

To add something a little different, rather than a card, here's a photo of a 1960 Maris Hartland Statue.

[Brianruns10]

I was wondering, is there ANY single season achievement that might get someone in the HoF? Like, suppose someone broke DiMaggio's hitting streak, or batted .400 for a season, but then their career fell apart due to an injury. Do you think that single season's achievement would be HoF worthy?

[packs]

Originally Posted by Brianruns10

I was wondering, is there ANY single season achievement that might get someone in the HoF? Like, suppose someone broke DiMaggio's hitting streak, or batted .400 for a season, but then their career fell apart due to an injury. Do you think that single season's achievement would be HoF worthy?

I don't think there's any other reason why Dizzy Dean is in the HOF except for winning 30 games once. He only pitched in parts of 12 seasons in total and in three of those seasons he pitched exactly 1 game. Why else is he in?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think there's any other reason why Dizzy Dean is in the HOF except for winning 30 games once. He only pitched in parts of 12 seasons in total and in three of those seasons he pitched exactly 1 game. Why else is he in?

He had a very strong 4.5 year prime, won 20+ games each season. He finished 1st, 2nd, 2nd and 7th in MVP voting. The next season he was injured in the AS game and struggled with injuries the rest of his career. Those 4.5 seasons he averaged 25+ wins per season. So, yes he did a lot more than have a one season career. He got very strong support from the baseball writers who saw him play and elected him.

[mortimer brewster]

Originally Posted by rats60

He had a very strong 4.5 year prime, won 20+ games each season. He finished 1st, 2nd, 2nd and 7th in MVP voting. The next season he was injured in the AS game and struggled with injuries the rest of his career. Those 4.5 seasons he averaged 25+ wins per season. So, yes he did a lot more than have a one season career. He got very strong support from the baseball writers who saw him play and elected him.

Also Dean was a larger than life character as a player. He was constantly generating publicity for the game (and himself).

His period of domination was about the same as Koufax who was certainly Hall worthy.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

He had a very strong 4.5 year prime, won 20+ games each season. He finished 1st, 2nd, 2nd and 7th in MVP voting. The next season he was injured in the AS game and struggled with injuries the rest of his career. Those 4.5 seasons he averaged 25+ wins per season. So, yes he did a lot more than have a one season career. He got very strong support from the baseball writers who saw him play and elected him.

I think his 30 win season is why he's in the HOF. Do you think he gets in without it? Without hitting a milestone like 30 wins I mean. Not without winning his MVP.

A lot of pitchers have had some impressive stretches. Johan Santana comes to mind. If Johan Santana won 30 games in his prime I think he's in the HOF too.

[Jim65]

Does Jack Chesbro get in if he doesn't win 41 games in 1904?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

I think his 30 win season is why he's in the HOF. Do you think he gets in without it? Without hitting a milestone like 30 wins I mean. Not without winning his MVP.

A lot of pitchers have had some impressive stretches. Johan Santana comes to mind. If Johan Santana won 30 games in his prime I think he's in the HOF too.

If he had only won 29 games in his MVP season I think he still makes it. He still averages 25+ wins over 4.5 seasons before his injury Not many pitchers have had a peak like that. There is just no comparison between Dean and Maris who is well short of HOF standards.

[nat]

Originally Posted by Brianruns10

I was wondering, is there ANY single season achievement that might get someone in the HoF? Like, suppose someone broke DiMaggio's hitting streak, or batted .400 for a season, but then their career fell apart due to an injury. Do you think that single season's achievement would be HoF worthy?

The instructions that the hall sends to voters explicitly say that players are not to be elected for a single achievement. They're not clear about a whole lot, but they are clear that it's a lifetime achievement award.

Someone else said:
"I always felt that the Hall should be reserved for those players that were iconic at their position within the era that they played, and numbers in line with the elites of the game"

It hasn't been this since the 1940s. Tommy McCarthy was elected in 1946. Frank Chance was elected the same year. Pie Traynor was elected two years later, along with Herb Pennock. And so on. Except at the very beginning, the hall has never been just for the Babe Ruths.

That said, Maris doesn't belong. Even by the hall's rather lax standards, there have been some notable mistakes. Maz is one. Harold Baines is the most recent example. These guys are far below the hall's usual standards. So to say that Maris is better than some of the guys in the hall isn't much of an argument. Maris burned brightly but briefly. And given that the hall prohibits electing players for single achievements, he burned too briefly.

[jchcollins]

People like to bitch and moan about Harold Baines, but truth is the HOF has a long history of enshrining "borderline" players - at least back to the 1940's. Herb Pennock? Rube Marquard? I'm a 30+ year Cubs fan, and I will give you that even I don't know that all three of the "Tinkers to Evers to Chance" poet laureates deserve enshrinement. Frank Chance probably has the strongest case.

Others - Bobby Doerr? Ted Lyons? Ducky Medwick? Bill Mazeroski?

It's much more a Hall of popularity than it is only a collection of players like Ruth, Mays, Musial, Williams, and Ken Griffey Jr. That much is for sure.

[jingram058]

Well, after reading through all of these very well thought out discussions, I guess in the end it really just doesn't matter. Frankly, I have my own HOF. There are quite a few non-actual-HOFers in it. Roger Maris is well included, and there are folks who would pay a lot of money for some of these cards. Maybe not 52 Mantle or Honus Wagner money, but a lot nevertheless. I'm not in it for that. I have what I like, and I will keep it that way, HOF or not.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Well, after reading through all of these very well thought out discussions, I guess in the end it really just doesn't matter. Frankly, I have my own HOF. There are quite a few non-actual-HOFers in it. Roger Maris is well included, and there are folks who would pay a lot of money for some of these cards. Maybe not 52 Mantle or Honus Wagner money, but a lot nevertheless. I'm not in it for that. I have what I like, and I will keep it that way, HOF or not.

Well said, bro. --- Brian Powell

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Brianruns10

I was wondering, is there ANY single season achievement that might get someone in the HoF? Like, suppose someone broke DiMaggio's hitting streak, or batted .400 for a season, but then their career fell apart due to an injury. Do you think that single season's achievement would be HoF worthy?

There is a rule about a 10 year (min) career...so I’d guess no. If they had 9 mediocre years then made a deal with the devil, had the greatest season ever (the things you mentioned plus hitting 75 HR, winning 30 games on the mound and managing his team to a WS win)...probably not but you never know!