Premium for Lionel Carter Collection Cards?

[GregMitch34]

Apologies if this has been discussed and settled 20 times already. Just noticed a card I liked that has never sold for more than $140 -- but buyer wants $390. No rational way--unless Lionel Carter cards (as it is so labeled by SGC) are worth twice as much. True? Wacko?

[Jaybird]

I've got some cards that probably wouldn't sell for more than $150 that I'd want much more to part with. It's just worth much more to me.

Did you contact him for it? Or is this something that is on ebay? Perhaps he's not that motivated to sell it and it has nothing to do with the Lionel Carter Pedigree.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Apologies if this has been discussed and settled 20 times already. Just noticed a card I liked that has never sold for more than $140 -- but buyer wants $390. No rational way--unless Lionel Carter cards (as it is so labeled by SGC) are worth twice as much. True? Wacko?

Apparently the seller wants almost 3 x as much
Carter pedigreed cards can bring in a small premium. But some sellers believe each card is rare
since Mr Carter only had 1 of each card, so in essence they are 1 of 1's

[usernamealreadytaken]

A seller will argue that the "pedigree" should bring a premium (I should know --- I tried).

I think the market has proven there is none.

[ethicsprof]

i have several Carter cards and paid a bit of a premium for each but certainly not anything near the 2-3X stated. I don't mind paying the premium because of what Jay W said about the "carter one of a kind".
I'd say I've paid about 15-20% more and know a few folks who have done similarly.
all the best,
barry

[oldjudge]

A card is a card. Who owned it, whether Lionel Carter or Joe Carter the butcher shouldn't impact it's value.

[calvindog]

I think there's a premium, but not a huge one. Certainly you'll know that the card has not been trimmed or otherwise altered as well as the fact that it was owned by a hobby legend.

[T206Collector]

That Jefferson Burdick once owned this card is actually more important to me than the fact that Lefty Leifield signed it.

[drc]

You'll get a good premium when the card belonged to Christy Mathewson.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

A card is a card. Who owned it, whether Lionel Carter or Joe Carter the butcher shouldn't impact it's value.

I paid a premium (over the regular value based on condition) on the Feller cards and was delighted to do so.
There is a premium for a PSA/SGC slabbed card over the same card in a top load.
And there can be premiums set for pedigreed cards, based on who owned them.
There are some Mickey Mantle owned cards floating around, would love to purchase one.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think there's a premium, but not a huge one. Certainly you'll know that the card has not been trimmed or otherwise altered as well as the fact that it was owned by a hobby legend.

Actually I have some Lionel Carter & Frank Nagy cards that are trimmed.
Here's a trimmed T207 that Mr Carter owned.

[philliesphan]

The prize card of my collection can be traced back to hobby pioneer Edward Wharton Tigar. That provenance in and of itself makes it exceptionally cool, a card for which I would pay a premium.

There have been examples of premiums paid for provenance. For example, I believe the 1952 Topps card that was owned by Mickey Mantle (from the Dreier collection) is one such example. All 1952 Mantles have a certain cache to them -- but one owned by Mantle has been demonstrated by the market to be worth a significant premium.

M

[CMIZ5290]

I have many t206s from the harris collection. Don't recall paying a premium on any of them.

[jp1216]

My one and only LC. No premium paid - maybe 10%. But neat to own one. Also was able to get one of those 'Feller Owned' - I put more premium on that being a Feller collector.

[shaunsteig]

I think a small premium (10-20%) is appropriate for a pedigree card. After all, if you had a choice between the pedigreed card and the non-pedigreed card, in same condition and same price, you'd pick the pedigree card every time, no?

My only pedigreed card:


Thanks,
--S

[Jay Wolt]

After all, if you had a choice between the pedigreed card and the non-pedigreed card, in same condition and same price, you'd pick the pedigree card every time, no?

Depends who's pedigree is on the card.
As a collector of pedigreed cards, I won't pay a premium on some collectors who wanted their name on the card.
Be it Mr. X, Harris, Rothman, Pollard, Hull etc...
But hobby pioneers, that's a different story, I will pay a premium for Lionel Carter, Jefferson Burdick, Buck Barker, Frank Nagy, Sir E.W. Tigar etc..
I would also pay a premium for baseball players own personal cards.

[GregMitch34]

Yeah, but how MUCH of a premium would you pay for a Lionel Carter?

[g_vezina_c55]

Like many of you know, i own the lionel carter 's t206 eddie plank and for me this card have more value than any other graded 1 plank. I love the pedigree card and the fact that card was put away long time ago but 1 of the first pioneers of our hobby.

For me all pioneers pedigree deserve à premium value .

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Yeah, but how MUCH of a premium would you pay for a Lionel Carter?

As I stated in my initial post, a small premium, maybe 10-20%
Unless its a tougher Lionel Carter issue. I have about 25-30 different card issues w/ the Carter pedigree.
A T206, '33 Goudey or 1957 Topps is pretty common since the sets weren't kept in tact and you can pick one up on ebay whenever you like.
Some other sets just aren't out there like Turkey Reds or Old Judges. If something like that surfaced, I'd probably pay double the card value to land one.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think there's a premium, but not a huge one. Certainly you'll know that the card has not been trimmed or otherwise altered as well as the fact that it was owned by a hobby legend.

Unfortunately, not true, Jeff. There are several pre-war caramel cards which have been trimmed, in authentic holders, with the Lionel Carter pedigree. I own a few myself. I think what you meant was that Lionel did not trim or alter the cards himself and I would agree with that 100%, but he may have purchased or traded for cards which had been trimmed or altered.

[MW1]

I have sold quite a few cards from Lionel Carter's collection over the last five years (more than 100) and have generally realized prices in the 1.25 to 2X range, depending on the card. Some examples sold on eBay since 2008:

1948 Bowman #34 Sheldon Jones SGC 50 $45
1948 Bowman #26 Frank Shea SGC 50 $40
1937 O-Pee-Chee #130 Ben Chapman SGC 60 $175
1948 Bowman #25 Barney McCoskey SGC Authentic $45
1948 Bowman #28 Emil Verban SGC Authentic $50
1948 Bowman #38 Red Schoendienst SGC 84 $590
1948 Bowman #42 Ray Poat SGC 70 $72
1948-49 Leaf #128 Warren Rosar SGC 88 $475
1948 Bowman #48 George Koslo RC SGC 88 $800
1948 Bowman #16 Jack Lohrke SGC 88 $400
1948 Bowman #27 Sid Gordon SGC 88 $300
1948-49 Leaf #14 Billy Johnson SGC 86 $400
1948 Bowman #1 Bob Elliott SGC 84 $146.50
1948 Bowman #6 Yogi Berra SGC 84 $611.01
1948-49 Leaf #53 Johnny Vandermeer SGC 84 $251.98
1948 Bowman #3 Ralph Kiner RC SGC 84 $260.00
1948 Bowman #17 Enos Slaughter SGC 84 $178.00
1937 O-Pee-Chee #137 Lefty Grove SGC 84 $1000.00
1937 O-Pee-Chee #139 Buck Newsom SGC 84 $400.00
1948 Bowman #36 Stan Musial Rookie SGC 88 $3250.00
1948-49 Leaf #11 Phil Rizzuto SGC 84 $750.00
1948-49 Leaf #31 Lou Brissie SGC 86 $500.00
1948-49 Leaf #83 Bobby Doerr SGC 86 $600.00
1948-49 Leaf #77 Roy Smalley SGC 86 $450.00
1948-49 Leaf #39 Ewell Blackwell SGC 84 $265.00
1948-49 Leaf #1 Joe DiMaggio SGC 80 $2500.00
1937 O-Pee-Chee #119 Bill Dickey SGC 84 $1200.00
1948-49 Leaf #49 Del Ennis SGC 88 $700.00
1948-49 Leaf #14 Billy Johnson SGC 86 $400.00
1956 Topps #181 Billy Martin SGC 88 $400.00
1948 Bowman #5 Bob Feller SGC 92 $1000.00
1948-49 Leaf #91 Ralph Kiner SGC 84 $425.00
1948 Bowman #18 Warren Spahn RC SGC 84 $750.00
1934-36 Diamond Stars #11 Bill Dickey SGC 84 $550.00
1934-36 Diamond Stars #32 Sam Rice SGC 84 $225.00


Note: Some of the card prices above reflect a multiplier greater than 2X, but this mostly comprises those examples that are otherwise NM-MT or Mint but have relatively small defects that lower the technical condition by one or more grades.

[mrvster]

I pais almost 2x for an f.scotty epdg......

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

A card is a card. Who owned it, whether Lionel Carter or Joe Carter the butcher shouldn't impact it's value.

I agree in part.

Where though a card's pedigree can be germane to its value is when it can serve to dispel the possibililty the card has been altered. For those cards Lionel Carter is known to have pulled directly from the packs, I'd be willing to pay a premium. I might add, in support of Jay's point, that I'd be prepared to pay the same premium for Joe the butcher's cards if the market gave the same recognition they likewise were pulled from packs.

[teetwoohsix]

I loved the whole "Beantown Find" story and the cards that surfaced that hadn't been seen by the hobby in decades was really cool. The provenance thing is attractive, especially if it's a card that was owned by a hobby pioneer.

Sincerely, Clayton

[barrysloate]

Run of the mill cards from a famous collector probably don't command much of a premium at all, although all things being equal, collectors might enjoy knowing that a card they own once belonged to a hobby legend.

But I do think it is more significant if a great rarity was once part of a famous collection. That's the kind of pedigree that is likely to command a premium, and one that is coveted by advanced collectors.

[dog*dirt]

Originally Posted by tbob

Unfortunately, not true, Jeff. There are several pre-war caramel cards which have been trimmed, in authentic holders, with the Lionel Carter pedigree. I own a few myself. I think what you meant was that Lionel did not trim or alter the cards himself and I would agree with that 100%, but he may have purchased or traded for cards which had been trimmed or altered.

I agree because this card I have used to be in a slab with the Lionel Carter flip. I still have the flip somewhere.

[t206hound]

I paid MAYBE a 10% premium for this one... glad to have it:

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by tbob

Unfortunately, not true, Jeff. There are several pre-war caramel cards which have been trimmed, in authentic holders, with the Lionel Carter pedigree. I own a few myself. I think what you meant was that Lionel did not trim or alter the cards himself and I would agree with that 100%, but he may have purchased or traded for cards which had been trimmed or altered.

Bob, exactly.

[DixieBaseball]

With all due respect to Mr. Carter, I would not pay a 1% premium for any cardboard that has been in his collection. I view all of us as temporary holder's of cardboard. I don't see any special feat of being a holder of cardboard. The enjoyment of collecting, the history, and learning from other collector's is what I enjoy about the hobby, not who might have owned it. It does not make it any more special for me.

[oldjudge]

Corey, you make a good point. On cards where there may be a question of tampering, knowing the card has been untouched for 50+ years may be worth something. The fact that that information on a slab adds value to the card implies that people do not have confidence in the TPG they are paying to grade cards, but that is a separate issue. I also find these comments as an indirect tip of the cap to Doug Allen and the folks at Legendary Auctions. If Doug had not insisted that SGC include the Lionel Carter reference on the slabs there would be no way of telling where the cards came from ( and thus no premium). This is the value added that a good auction house can provide.

[calvindog]

When they're not committing massive fraud.

[Matthew H]

I value items that are fresh to the hobby more then famous collector provanance. Finds of old cards are getting fewer and farther between.

A few recents that come to mind: Beantown cards, Virginia's OJs, kyletexas... I tend to be be a sucker for small finds too. If something pops up with a cool story of its origin tend to want it.

Some of the cards Lionel Carter had were purchased the same way we all buy cards every day. They're just regular cards circulating around the hobby to me.

[oldjudge]

And the Black Swamp Find. Most finds add interest in the cards found. The Black Swamp Find, however, will kill the high grade E98 market.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

And the Black Swamp Find. Most finds add interest in the cards found. The Black Swamp Find, however, will kill the high grade E98 market.

Actually the market will increase while the prices will plunge. Same thing happens with very rare items when lots of them come out. Been there done that.

[Matthew H]

I know this can't compare but when mr mint found all those 52T Mantles the price went up. Maybe just the mid-grade will suffer? How many cards total were found, anyone know?

[oldjudge]

I heard that it was between 700 and 800 extremely high grade copies

[Matthew H]

Wow! That could be 25 sets!? Well at least the Lajoie cards are safe. Amazing there wasn't one in the pile.

[llafoe]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

I know this can't compare but when mr mint found all those 52T Mantles the price went up. Maybe just the mid-grade will suffer? How many cards total were found, anyone know?

From Heritage: "Of the 30 players from the E98 series the collection offered 25 players in duplicate, a trio represented by a single example and two players (Lajoie and Walsh) mysteriously not represented."

[oldjudge]

"in duplicate" doesn't portray the volume of the find

[Matthew H]

Are they going to sell them all in this auction? That set's not going cheap, eek

[E93]

I think they are worth a premium. This set was worth a premium to me, particularly knowing that it was pulled from packs by Lionel Carter in 1933 and it is the set that began his 60+ year love of cards and this hobby.
JimB