Can't slab--only one known?

[Hankphenom]

At the Philly show, I ran into Earl from SGC. He told me that Legendary had sent them a Walter Johnson card they had never seen before. I said, "That's my card!" to which he replied, "I don't think we're going to be able to slab it, because there's no exemplar."

So let me get this straight. They can never slab a card that hasn't surfaced before, so no one-of-a-kind card can ever be slabbed? Therefore, the second example to surface will get slabbed, but not the first. Now I'm even wondering if they even keep a picture of my card, in case another one does ever show up.

Seems to me there should be enough evidence of age, wear, materials, ink, style of printing, etc, to give them enough confidence to slab this card, but I guess there must be some legal reasons for them not to.

[gnaz01]

Hank,

That isn't true. I have an e125 American Caramel Die Cut of Eddie Plank and it has been documented it is the only known exemplar, and it resides in an SGC30 case, so not sure if Earl is 100% accurate here.

[Matthew H]

E125 is a known issue. Maybe they just haven't seen one of the cash clothing cards

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

E125 is a known issue. Maybe they just haven't seen one of the cash clothing cards

I just assumed he meant there was no Johnson exemplar

[glchen]

There have been unique postcards that have been slabbed I think.

[packs]

Maybe they can't verify that it isn't a fantasy piece. Have you verified that there was a Cash Clothing Store in Sedgwick, Colorado?

[Deertick]

Haven't I seen that they slabbed a generic "Trade Card" before? I agree, there should be a way for them to slab it Authentic without attribution to a specific run. Maybe they can't even pinpoint decade?

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by packs

Maybe they can't verify that it isn't a fantasy piece. Have you verified that there was a Cash Clothing Store in Sedgwick, Colorado?

Haven't found anything on The Clothing Store, but verified and Ira Dobson b.1866, resided in Sedgwick, Summit Co, Colorado in 1910. About the age to be a proprieter, no?

http://files.usgwarchives.net/co/sed...dgwick-a-l.txt

[jim]

Have you tried to get PSA to slab it?

Any business even back then was registered. So if you can't find proof of existence of a clothing store then I would lean towards fantasy piece well done and neat looking. BTW isn't that pose from an exhibit?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Any business even back then was registered. So if you can't find proof of existence of a clothing store then I would lean towards fantasy piece well done and neat looking. BTW isn't that pose from an exhibit?

Registered with whom? But you're on the right track--enough research, perhaps just a phone book, should reveal the existence of the Cash Clothing Store. Of course, what would that really prove, as a smart forger would certainly use a known entity for his concoction? Nobody with any experience seeing this card close up would need anybody else to tell them it's real and vintage, and for that reason I'm not concerned about whether it appears in the auction slabbed or not. In fact, I would use the fact that none of the TPAs could slab it for lack of another known example as a plus, showing that it could, indeed, be a true one-of-a-kind. I just find it strange that TPAs can never authenticate that kind of rarity, but I guess they have good reasons for that. BTW, I've seen this same artwork on two different pieces, a Crack-A-Jack uniforms salesman's sample book page and this one, cut out from a Faithorn Company (Chicago) calendar issued in 1912

[Hankphenom]

Here's the other image:

[packs]

Seems like you should be able to locate the business in a search.

State and local goverment. I could make fake cards using old pages from books and cardstock, period ink, and a small press. Does that make them real? It's all period except when it was made. With the right tools an enough knowledge and patience any body could recreate period/fantasy pieces

[71buc]

The artist is likely J.C Leyendecker. He was active during Johnson's era and specialized in Advertising art relating to men's fashion. Legendary auctions (see below) sold an item with the same image as part of a fabric catalog circa 1910. Whatever it is, it is very attractive example of baseball and advertising art from one of my favorite American illustrators congratulations on a great pick up and good luck with it.

http://www.americanartarchives.com/leyendecker,jc.htm

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=45003

Originally Posted by Pup6913

State and local goverment. I could make fake cards using old pages from books and cardstock, period ink, and a small press. Does that make them real? It's all period except when it was made. With the right tools an enough knowledge and patience any body could recreate period/fantasy pieces

To add the state of CO has never had a business registered anywhere in the archives from 1900-1930's by that name. The Colorado public library also has no archives, newspaper adds, or anything else of any company by that name. Something is not adding up. Only the name of a man is all we have and his profession was not listed. Seems if he owned or ran a men's clothing shop that it would be something to mention right?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by 71buc

The artist is likely J.C Leyendecker. He was active during Johnson's era and specialized in Advertising art relating to men's fashion. Legendary auctions (see below) sold an item with the same image as part of a fabric catalog circa 1910. Whatever it is, it is very attractive example of baseball and advertising art from one of my favorite American illustrators congratulations on a great pick up and good luck with it.

http://www.americanartarchives.com/leyendecker,jc.htm

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=45003

Thanks, Mike. The artist signed the calendar piece, but I can't make it out, could be Krompton or Brompton, first initial might be J. What I'm having trouble with as far as TPA is this: just because a card is known to exist doesn't make any new example of it legit. Fakes and reprints abound. So to authenticate a newly presented example, the TPA has to look beyond the history of the issue and the image to all the other factors: materials used, evidence of aging, etc, all the forensic things I assume they do routinely. So why can't they just do the same forensics with a piece that has no other example? Seems pretty simple to me.

[Batter67up]

I went through the same issue in 2009 with the card below as both PSA and SGC had never seen it. I had to provide them information from a book from 1990 to show them details on it and it still took 3 weeks for them to decide to give it an Authentic Grade and a date of 1920's c. They would not give it a numeric grade even though the book provided specifications on the card. The book also showed this as a 1919 card. I did get some assistance from Dan McKee as he has a similiar card and provided pictures to them of it. Rob Lifson also gave me a call about the card and said it was authentic and he actually owned one back in the 70's and hadn't seen one since.

[Exhibitman]

I think they're being appropriately cautious. Back before they underwent all of the regime change the usual practice when they got a unique item was to call around to various people they know who are expert in the particular field [I used to get a lot of those calls from SGC over boxing cards] to get an ID and a verification on an item. I was also told that since I was the rolodex go-to guy on boxing issues, if I sent in something completely different they'd take my word for it. That said, what Steve says sounds about right in terms of approach [aside: I envy you that card, Steve; I was chasing it too if it is the one that was auctioned this last season]. Perhaps some of the people in the know here can intercede with SGC for you?

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

To add the state of CO has never had a business registered anywhere in the archives from 1900-1930's by that name. The Colorado public library also has no archives, newspaper adds, or anything else of any company by that name.

A large amount of information on businesses was never indexed and never will never be searchable in digital format. When looking at trade ads, you are at the mercy of the librarian or info-pro would created hit words for each page of microform. As far as finding aids go, a library may have created finding aids for newspapers, but only significant features are indexe. A trade ad for Joe Schmoe's clothing store would never be important enough to make an index. You would basically have to go through microform page-by-page, looking for a needle in a haystack. The info is out there; finding it is the issue.

[Bugsy]

I should also mention that it might be worthwhile calling a reference librarian in the Colorado public library system. The might have access to some materials that are not available online. They might also have a few connections to other local resources not in the CO public library system (i.e. a private library) that might have what you need.

Good luck!

Chris

[glchen]

Originally Posted by jim

Have you tried to get PSA to slab it?

PSA would not slab it. They are even more stringent than SGC and will only slab cards that are in the Standard Catalog or something equivalent.

[jim]

if neither of the top two will slab it, that says that they do not know it's authenticity. a future potential buyer will then have to rely, on what, for the piece to be real?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

I should also mention that it might be worthwhile calling a reference librarian in the Colorado public library system. The might have access to some materials that are not available online. They might also have a few connections to other local resources not in the CO public library system (i.e. a private library) that might have what you need.

Good luck!

Chris

+1
Contacting a reference librarian local to the area is a great idea.

My experience researching things has been that even fairly mainstream items of recent vintage can be essentially uncataloged and definetly aren't online.

I have a bike from 1982 that was sold to me as having been used for a review in Bicycling magazine in 1985. NO local library had hard copy older than 3 years, and only Cambridge had microfilm. (Not even BPL) Also Bicycling isn't cataloged in readers guide to periodical literature. As I was starting to go through their microfilm collection - Also largely unindexed aside from month and publications included (All publications from one month together instead of all of the same title!) One of the librarians found an index that was very obscure. That and the name of the builder got me to the month and an actual date of 1982. And that got me the article, and a bunch of better information about that bikes place in history.

Much online stuff has been indexed either electronically, or by college students. Either way the indexes aren't all that acurate. Google has done all the US patents, but the OCR they used had problems with some of the early 1900's typefaces used. And both of the indexes for Harpers are very incomplete, often listing only one article from a page that might have 6 or more.
And neither indexes ads at all.

But the local research librarian will usually be able to point you to a local resource such as city books, which list all addesses, and all businesses in the city at the time of publication, or microfilm of locally held documents or newspapers. They usually don't have much time to do a lot of research but a photocopy of a page from a city directory is usally fine. (Some charge a small fee, but what they turn up is usually worth it.)

Steve B

[Bicem]

SGC is very hesitant to slab postcards from unknown issues these days as well. They have really gone downhill in this segment of the hobby in my humble opinion.

[Leon]

I also feel SGC is a bit too strict in this area. I would think they could perform some normal tests and see if the printing, paper and other characteristics fit for the era (as mentioned), then grade it. If I were them and didn't have an exact date I would just use the ole "circa" verbiage and be safe. They have never graded a few of my Babe Ruth Headin' Home strip cards either though I am confident they are real AND they are in the SCD. But they still won't grade them.

[glynparson]

nm that was long ago

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jim

if neither of the top two will slab it, that says that they do not know it's authenticity. a future potential buyer will then have to rely, on what, for the piece to be real?

Their eyes and their brains, along with those of the auction house experts. What a concept!

[tbob]

I have a card of Frank Chance which is identical to an E95 Chance except that the caption lists him as playing/coaching with the Yankees rather than the Cubs and the card has a blank back. I aslo have a card of Johnny Kling with is identical to an E96 Kling except the caption lists him as playing with the Braves instead of the Cubs and the card has a blank back. There is one more card in this group (can't remember the name but it was identical to an E96) which was purchased by Keith Olberman and had the same different team name and a blank back. SGC said the cards couldn't be slabbed when I asked about 7-8 years ago because these cards had never seen before. E95 are from 1909, E96s are from 1910. Chance coached the Yankees in 1913 and 1914. These are one of a kind cards, possibly color proofs of a planned set which never materialized.
The card weight and texture is very similar to the E97 black and white card set.
I know a few posters on this board thought that they must be from those notebook covers, rather than proofs, but Kling was never included among the cards pictured. Chance was included on the notebook cover but is listed as Chance Chi. Natl. not New York AL.
The cards still remain one of a kind whose origin is unknown. I haven't checked with SGC lately to see if they might slab them as E unknown series cards. Now that they have begun slabbing E93 and E97 blank backs in the past few years, I might try.
P.S. Here is a picture of the Notebook Cover published in 1913 and you will note that the Chance "card" is captioned as his being with the Cubs.

[travrosty]

why does every card need to be in a holder? i am on sgc side.

its not their job to research and catalogue cards, they slab them as authentic.

why should they go out and spend countless hours researching and testing paper, etc.? that's not their job. if its a known issue, they should slab it, but if its not, its up to the collector to prove it, then they can slab it, another reason why cards dont need to be slabbed in the first place. because slabbing doesnt make it real, and not slabbing it doesnt make it fake. it's either real or not irregardless.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by travrosty

why does every card need to be in a holder? i am on sgc side.

its not their job to research and catalogue cards, they slab them as authentic.

why should they go out and spend countless hours researching and testing paper, etc.? that's not their job. if its a known issue, they should slab it, but if its not, its up to the collector to prove it, then they can slab it, another reason why cards dont need to be slabbed in the first place. because slabbing doesnt make it real, and not slabbing it doesnt make it fake. it's either real or not irregardless.

I'm with you 100% on slabbing, I could do without it altogether. Authentication (exposing trimming, etc), on the other hand, is useful for exposing fraud. But the market has spoken--slabbed gets better prices than unslabbed--so from that standpoint I would like to get my card slabbed. It's your second point that doesn't make sense to me. Let's see, when a TPA is presented with a nice-looking T206 Wagner, they don't have to "spend countless hours researching and testing paper, etc. If it's a known issue, they should slab it." Really? All they need is the fact that that this is a known issue? Of course not. In fact, that's the least of their considerations. They will look at everything else about this card--the paper, the ink, the edges, the age, everything that forensically confirms that this card was actually made in 1910 or thereabouts. So why can't they just do the same with my card, and verify that it is indeed from that period, which it so clearly is? Why do they need another example, which might not exist, to compare it to? A forger with any brains isn't going to go to the trouble to create a new design that nobody's ever seen before, he's going to use the template of a known and desirable issue and try to create a passable forgery with all the aging and other techniques at his disposal. I'm not getting the logic here.

[Exhibitman]

Well, Travis, I think a TPG has a duty to stay abreast of the latest discoveries and developments in their field, just as any professional [I know...] has to do the same. Part of what ticks off the OP and others about a TPG not knowing how to handle obscure issues is that it appears unprofessional and lazy. If multiple people here and auctioneers know the score, I'd expect a TPG to be similarly aware of what is out there.

[jim]

perhaps I am missing something; you are lamenting that sgc won't slab it but then why are you even trying to get it slabbed if you are one of the experts? isn't your expert knowledge good enough?
jim

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by jim

perhaps I am missing something; you are lamenting that sgc won't slab it but then why are you even trying to get it slabbed if you are one of the experts? isn't your expert knowledge good enough?
jim

I believe Hank is consigning the piece for auction?

And playing devil's advocate: Why would a forger go through the trouble to create a one of a kind advertising card? What would the profit motive be? Once it leaves his hand, there is no benefit. (Assuming that Hank did not purchase this from the forger himself for $10K ) Can we look forward to a flood of these? Probably not.

[jim]

but his sarcastic point that he didn't need it to be slabbed because of his expert knowledge that it was real. so i questioned why he was complaining about no TPG would grade it. according to him, his knowledge should be sufficient as to it's authenticity. seems to me, he wants it slabbed so he could be removed from being responsible if it is later deemed a fake. another person who screams when TPG don't fulfill their wishes.
jim loewke

[glchen]

One reason to slab even if some experts believe the card is genuine: 1930 Goudey Ruth: One of many links. Another reason to slab is that once you meet your maker, your heirs will have to dispose of your collection, and they will likely not have the expert knowledge that you have on the card. Therefore, you slab to help them when that time comes.

[jim]

agreed across all your points Gary.
jim

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by jim

but his sarcastic point that he didn't need it to be slabbed because of his expert knowledge that it was real. so i questioned why he was complaining about no TPG would grade it. according to him, his knowledge should be sufficient as to it's authenticity. seems to me, he wants it slabbed so he could be removed from being responsible if it is later deemed a fake. another person who screams when TPG don't fulfill their wishes.
jim loewke

slabbed gets more money.

and I would trust Hank's knowledge over SGC's every time on authentication of obscure Walter Johnson items.

maybe SGC should just stick to the mainstream stuff.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jim

but his sarcastic point that he didn't need it to be slabbed because of his expert knowledge that it was real. so i questioned why he was complaining about no TPG would grade it. according to him, his knowledge should be sufficient as to it's authenticity. seems to me, he wants it slabbed so he could be removed from being responsible if it is later deemed a fake. another person who screams when TPG don't fulfill their wishes.
jim loewke

Sarcastic? Screams? Give me a break. I explained my motivation for wanting it slabbed--can't fight the market. I explained my failure to see the logic in examining known issues through forensics, but not with this card. And I'm happy enough to see this in the auction without being slabbed--it will do just fine as is.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Sarcastic? Screams? Give me a break. I explained my motivation for wanting it slabbed--can't fight the market. I explained my failure to see the logic in examining known issues through forensics, but not with this card. And I'm happy enough to see this in the auction without being slabbed--it will do just fine as is.

Especially now we all want it.

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

At the Philly show, I ran into Earl from SGC. He told me that Legendary had sent them a Walter Johnson card they had never seen before. I said, "That's my card!" to which he replied, "I don't think we're going to be able to slab it, because there's no exemplar."

So let me get this straight. They can never slab a card that hasn't surfaced before, so no one-of-a-kind card can ever be slabbed? Therefore, the second example to surface will get slabbed, but not the first. Now I'm even wondering if they even keep a picture of my card, in case another one does ever show up.

Seems to me there should be enough evidence of age, wear, materials, ink, style of printing, etc, to give them enough confidence to slab this card, but I guess there must be some legal reasons for them not to.

Hank, what is the size of this card? Is it heavier cardboard type?

Joe

[Hankphenom]

Postcard size and stock.

[kmac32]

Same issue with some hand cut Koester bread cards I own. I was wanting only an authentic grade and it was more for display but SGC wouldn't do it. In fact even if you have a proven Koester card, they will call it a W575-1.

[VintageBall]

This is exactly why these grading companies should exist. To do the hard work.

They should be there to tell you if that Fro-Joy Ruth is legit or if Leon's Headin Home cards are real -- and if this postcard from Hank makes the grade (pun intended).

We don't need them to tell us a T206 is a T206. Yes they provide other services on that T206 -- letting you know if it is authentic and trimmed. But it's the hard stuff that people really need help on...!

And if they don't have the expertise to identify and authenticate postcards or boxing cards or any other type of collectible, then they shouldn't be slabbing ANY of them in this category. If they want to grade items in a category then they need to have the expertise in that category. This is the standard to which they should be held.

They should either have this expertise in-house or use freelance contractors and pay them. Calling Adam for free help because he is a boxing card expert is lazy and unprofessional. Paying Adam for help isn't.

This is what we expect when we use a professional service -- whether it's a plumber, an electrician or an accountant. The same should be true of a grading card service.

This may be a hobby for us, but it is a business for them and should therefore be conducted with professionalism, uniformity and standards.

...Just one opinion from a type card and postcard collector...

Robert S

[VintageBall]

BTW, I once sold an ungraded postcard to another collector who promptly took it to one of the grading services to be slabbed. This grading service said they were unsure and would ask an expert to double-check it. Who did they ask?

Me.

They flagged me down at the show to ask me.

Of course it was real, but this clearly was not a professional way to conduct business.

Yes, I consider myself knowledgeable about postcards. But they should have a postcard expert on staff or under contract as a freelancer. And the expert should not be allowed to authenticate his own stuff or have a financial interest in the item!

This is no way to run a business. Either slab things the right away or don't slab any item in the category!

Robert S

[Exhibitman]

+1 on both counts, Robert!

[Hankphenom]

Well said, Robert. Question: Do SGC and/or PSA slab one-of-a-kind RPPCs? If so, how do they do it?

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Well said, Robert. Question: Do SGC and/or PSA slab one-of-a-kind RPPCs? If so, how do they do it?

depends on what day of the week it is, who you talk to, what the guy had for lunch, if the Cubs won that night... there's really no consistency. I've seen them slabbed and I've seen them rejected. I do think it's much tougher these days.


(this is for SGC, have no idea on PSA as they often just put them in Authentic holders if they don't know much about them)

[Matthew H]

PSA slabbed the first Henry Reccius Honus Wagner, what exemplar did they have?

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

PSA slabbed the first Henry Reccius Honus Wagner, what exemplar did they have?

I was thinking this exact same thing.