Hey, pennant guys

[Fballguy]

Trying to stay in Rob's sweet spot...circa 1962...give or take.

[Fballguy]

Still wet but early returns are promising...

[perezfan]

Awesome pennant, and great improvement. That one was the perfect candidate!

[Fballguy]

Thanks Mark...I'm feeling cocky again. I've got some 1960's AFL pennants begging for a try.

[yankeesjetsfan]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Thanks Mark...I'm feeling cocky again. I've got some 1960's AFL pennants begging for a try.

If you have any Titans/Jets pennants, the die hard in me urge you to proceed with extreme caution. I think I'd cry seeing a vintage Jets pennant ruined.

Mike

[JMEnglish27]

So, I've got a couple 70s MLB pennants I'd like to try it on. Dare I? Is the consensus that it needs to be 60s?

[perezfan]

Rob might have to answer that one...

Seems like the best results are coming from those softer/more supple cloth type. Once you get into the '70s, the stiffer "felt" (or whatever it is) is a whole different animal. Not sure how that material would react to the bleach.

I have passed on bidding/purchasing dozens of white pennants over the years, because of ugly staining. So am hoping to see some more good results!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bigj7489

So, I've got a couple 70s MLB pennants I'd like to try it on. Dare I? Is the consensus that it needs to be 60s?

That's not my consensus. I've done 60s, 70s and 80s all with good results and not a single disaster.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by bigj7489

So, I've got a couple 70s MLB pennants I'd like to try it on. Dare I? Is the consensus that it needs to be 60s?

I haven't done enough to have a consensus. Through 4 attempts I've had very good results with two pennants from the mid-60s, good results with one that may be a few years older than that and terrible results with the one pennant I tried from the 70's.

I originally thought the Giants pennant I cleaned was older because the graphics appeared painted on. They were more raised than those on the Browns and Bears....and they ran significantly...but it depicts Y.A. Tittle who was a Giant from 61 to 64. So this one is probably very close in age to the other two. Maybe they're just a couple years apart and the technology shift occurred shortly after this pennant was made.

I'll post the before and afters of my 70's Redskins pennant. You might want to shield your eyes.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by yankeesjetsfan

If you have any Titans/Jets pennants, the die hard in me urge you to proceed with extreme caution. I think I'd cry seeing a vintage Jets pennant ruined.

Mike

Funny you should say that...I do have a Jets that's waiting in queue and just picked up another cheap AFL version that will look much nicer once bleached...I hope.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I have passed on bidding/purchasing dozens of white pennants over the years, because of ugly staining. So am hoping to see some more good results!

Same here but recently started purchasing them if cheap...with an eye towards improving them. I'll post more results tonight once I decide on the next guinea pig.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

That's not my consensus. I've done 60s, 70s and 80s all with good results and not a single disaster.

Strange...My Redskins pennant looked better in the "before" photos. It was instantaneously evident that it wasn't going as planned.

[Fballguy]

[Fballguy]

One note...It did appear to get somewhat whiter over time...ie days. Where as the ones I had great success with turned white before my eyes.

[perezfan]

Wow... that one sure bombed. In retrospect, the "before" version wasn't all that bad.

[yankeesjetsfan]

Here's my Jets pennant. I bought this off eBay a couple years back for next to nothing. I see this pennant goes for more now. I assume I got it cheap because of the bend near the tip. Is there anyway to fix that?

I bought this because it had Shea Stadium on the pennant. I don't see many Jets items with Shea mentioned. Because of the NFL Logo, I assune this is a 70s piece. Not sure of the year. Any ideas? I also wonder if its missing any pieces.

Mike

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

[perezfan]

Looks like it never had tassels. Condition looks great... and the bend is not a big deal, but it can easily be ironed out if it bothers you.

Very easy process... just iron with some mild steam from the reverse side. DO NOT iron the front side. Use a medium heat setting and keep the iron moving. Do not leave the iron in one spot for more than a couple of seconds.

This crease should come out with very little effort. Again...

Do NOT iron the front side
Do NOT use high heat
DO keep the iron moving

Best of luck.... this one is easy in the scheme of things

[Fballguy]

The next test...1960's AFL New York Jets. Look away Mike.

Any predictions?

[perezfan]

I'll throw a prediction out there...

I am guessing this one turns our GREAT! (How's that for applying some pressure?)

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I'll throw a prediction out there...

I am guessing this one turns our GREAT! (How's that for applying some pressure?)

No pressure.

[Fballguy]

One thing I noticed is that the pennants get whiter over time. I see an immediate change as soon as I spray the bleach on, which I'm pleased with. But then I let the pennants air dry for a couple days and they continue to get whiter. The pictures of the Jets pennant were taken about an hour after I rinsed it. I suspect that it will look even better in a couple days.

[Fballguy]

[Fballguy]

Toying with bleaching the spine on the Namath Jets pennant...or maybe just replacing with a nice white one. Not sure.

The Rams is older and paint feels raised. Might be a mistake but I bought it for the sole purpose of trying.

New Jersey Giants...Would love to clean up. But it's 70's era which I bombed with last time.

Broncos...I feel good about my chances.

Dolphins...Not too worried.

Tittle Giants...Cautious but bought it to try. I suspect similar results to the other Tittle I have.

Allie's Dream...Has a lot to gain by cleaning...But I'm unsure of how it will hold up. Different material than others from the 1960's, which I'm assuming this is from as he coached there from 61 to 68. Just noticed...the misspelling of "Alie" on the pennant. I'm sure that makes it even more rare and valuable.

[Fballguy]

[Fballguy]

This area ran quite a bit. Again, only the red paint, not the blue. Red doesn't seem to hold up as well...at least Giant's red. I've gotten pretty good at combating the problem by laying the pennant flat, spraying water directly at the white sections that have had red bleed onto them...dabbing immediately with paper towel (or Q tip for more precise areas), then blowing onto the area to arrest any further bleeding. The running paint does come right off if you treat it quickly. I haven't perfected it yet...but the results look better in the end than you'd expect when in process. And the end product looks much better than what I started with.

The black that appears around the knees of player #77 is just shadows. The pennant came out very white with no residual staining at all.

Overall, happy with this one.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

The black that appears around the knees of player #77 is just shadows.

One interesting thing I never noticed before...#77 isn't wearing a face mask, while all other players depicted are. The NFL mandated the face mask in the 1950's but allowed players to be grandfathered into the prior rule. I guess #77 was an old timer.

[Fballguy]

Done about a half dozen of these now. Let's see what we've learned...

Pennant: Cleveland Browns

Era: Mid 60's

Issue: Rust like and unknown liquid stains

Material: Soft felt

Result: Stains gone. Pennant very white. No change to material or silk screening.

Grade: A

[Fballguy]

Pennant: Chicago Bears

Era: Mid 60's

Issue: Substantial staining and discoloration throughout

Material: Soft felt

Result: Cleaned up perfectly. All discoloration gone. Very white. No change to material or silk screening.

Grade: A

[Fballguy]

Pennant: Tittle Giants #1

Era: Early 60's

Issue: Significant staining and discoloration throughout.

Material: Wool material similar but different than first two pennants.

Result: Significant improvement but a couple stains remained. Red paint ran considerably but was manageable. Slight fading to red lettering. A few random loose threads emerged along the edges which I snipped with no lasting damage.

Grade: B+

[Fballguy]

Pennant: Washington Redskins

Era: 1970's

Issue: discoloration from age

Material: Stiff felt

Result: massive color running. Damage to material. Modest whitening which improved slightly over days. Pennant trashed.

Grade: F

[Fballguy]

Pennant: AFL Jets

Era: Mid 60's

Issue: Significant discoloration from age. A couple small stains.

Material: Soft felt

Result: Very white. Stains gone. No change to silk screening. Material feels slightly different. Maybe thinner.

Grade: B

[Fballguy]

Pennant: Tittle Giants #2

Era: Early 60's

Issue: Significant discoloration

Material: Same as first Giants pennant

Result: Same as first Giants pennant. Much whiter with a few loose threads and red paint bleeding.

Grade: B+

[perezfan]

Some very nice results on those last ones. Funny how the red paint reacts differently from the blue. Who'd have guessed?

Regarding that Jets/Namath pennant... one of my very favorites from that era. Hopefully the spine cleans up well, as it's otherwise in great shape. I would definitely try that one next, and only attempt the "spine transplant" if it bombs.

Fingers crossed for you... please be sure to keep posting your results!

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Some very nice results on those last ones. Funny how the red paint reacts differently from the blue. Who'd have guessed?

Yeah...No issue whatsoever to the blue. Holds up fine. Same with the black on the Browns pennant. The blue and orange of the Bears held up fine too. So far only red has run. Overall...Aside from the Redskins, very pleased with the "after" version of each pennant.

[rdb34]

Hello,

Im a vintage baseball glove collector who resides in the far south Chicago suburbs. I usually head to at least one flea market a weekend, sometimes 3 or 4.
I've posted a few times trying to sell stuff, but I'm a lurker. I like to follow the posts and learn, but have little to add. My username is the same on Brett's vintage baseball glove forum, I've had some cool glove finds the last couple years. Check them out.

Anyway, heres my addition to the thread. It's a double sided pennant featuring Muhammad Ali/Cassius Clay vs. George Foreman on one side and Hank Aaron chasing down Ruth's HR record on the other. I contacted a fellow member and he said that pennants would be recycled if unsold, and that he'd never seen one like it. That initially made me think the Ali side had been reused to make the Aaron side due to the red strip of felt. A little research later i found the date of the Aaron side was before the October Rumble in the Jungle. It then dawned on me that if they were recycling pennants they certainly wouldn't remove the red felt strip and resew it on the new side.

Let me know what you think, stepped out of my comfort zone on this one.

I usually turn these finds into baseball gloves, still have a sweet uniform in the B/S/T section.

Richie

[ooo-ribay]

Fantastic pennant, Richie! I've never seen either side, which is somewhat surprising since you might think I would have seen the Aaron in my baseball searches or the Ali in one of the many auction catalogs I've received over the years. I assume the empty square on the Aaron was for a photo.

Didn't Ali fight Foreman more than once? If so, your pennant isn't necessarily Rumble in the Jungle. I love how they decided to do Ali's new name in a middle eastern looking font.

I don't have an idea on value but I would think both Ali and Aaron are highly collected.

[perezfan]

I've seen both... The Aaron side is the original one. When it went unsold, they simply re-used the pennant for Ali/Foreman. Apparently the makers didn't feel that fans/collectors would care much about the felt strip being on the incorrect side. I've seen the same phenomenon with Colt .45/Astros and Boston/Milwaukee Braves 2-sided pennants. The felt strip is seemingly always on the original side.

The blank square was indeed for a photo insert of Aaron. So either it was removed, or more likely, never even applied. Appears there is no adhesive or residue to indicate a photo ever having been applied.

So this was likely just left-over stock, used by the vendor to save money. It's a unique piece, and probably desirable to the right buyer. Probably won't get you a crescent pad, or even a Lutzke in return... but perhaps a nice Decker Patent (to put the value in "glove terms"). Still, great stuff!

[perezfan]

Here's an interesting addition to the story. The pennant pictured below shows the Hank Aaron pennant with a photo. I'm sure this photo is not original to the piece. So I'm betting that a few (or perhaps many) of these pennants never had any photo attached. The photo would have been centered within the painted square.

The example pictured below was likely a home-made job, done to make it more saleable and attractive.

[yankeesjetsfan]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

The next test...1960's AFL New York Jets. Look away Mike.

Any predictions?

That is a beautiful pennant. Please, Id love to see pics of it all cleaned up. That and the Namath. those are some gorgeous pennants.

Mike

[yankeesjetsfan]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Looks like it never had tassels. Condition looks great... and the bend is not a big deal, but it can easily be ironed out if it bothers you.

Very easy process... just iron with some mild steam from the reverse side. DO NOT iron the front side. Use a medium heat setting and keep the iron moving. Do not leave the iron in one spot for more than a couple of seconds.

This crease should come out with very little effort. Again...

Do NOT iron the front side
Do NOT use high heat
DO keep the iron moving

Best of luck.... this one is easy in the scheme of things

Thank you for the advice!

Mike

[perezfan]

No problem!

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by yankeesjetsfan

That is a beautiful pennant. Please, Id love to see pics of it all cleaned up. That and the Namath. those are some gorgeous pennants.

Mike

I posted some after photos a couple pages back. In terms of cleaning up and whiteness it came out great. But the material feels somewhat thinner now and that has me rethinking trying any other "AFL" pennants. Maybe I need to dilute the bleach some.

As for the Namath...I'm not sure if I should remove the spine and bleach it separately, or leave it on and try to block with painters tape. That would be less hassle, but way more risk.

[perezfan]

Regarding the Namath, there is definite risk both ways. Removing the spine is pretty drastic, given it will likely have two sets of stitching holes/rows, when completed. And how can you be sure that replicating the original sewing style is even possible? To me, that's a more severe alteration than just a cleaning.

It seems safer to thoroughly tape off the body of the pennant, and then do the bleaching with pennant hanging vertically.... but with the pointed side UP (so any excess bleach would drip/bleed off the spine and away from the pennant). In case it drips, you can place a bucket or newspapers below... or do it over a bath tub or sink.

Just my 2 cents... GOOD LUCK, if you attempt it.

[rdb34]

Thanks for the compliments.

Mark, I found the same pics when i was originally was researching the pennant. The fact that no residual glue/paper is in the box should of been another clue that the Aaron side was recycled.

Really was hoping for at least a Lutzke LOL. Fun way to value something!

Any of you pennant guys have some early endorsed horsehide for trade?

[Fballguy]

I've got a Mizuno I bought at K Mart about 20 years ago.

[ooo-ribay]

It cracks me up that Mark, who is apprehensive to experiment on his own pennants, is right there with advice! I will say, for the era Mark collects, I doubt he has many white pennants.

Rob - I am thrilled that you have jumped in with both feet. Sorry about the failures but I think the successes far outweigh them. Here's what you might use on the Namath pennant. The bleach is more of a gel.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

It cracks me up that Mark, who is apprehensive to experiment on his own pennants, is right there with advice! I will say, for the era Mark collects, I doubt he has many white pennants.

Rob - I am thrilled that you have jumped in with both feet. Sorry about the failures but I think the successes far outweigh them. Here's what you might use on the Namath pennant. The bleach is more of a gel.

That's a great idea Rob. Thanks!

Aside from the Redskins pennant...which I have multiple of...just picked up another as part of a lot as a matter of fact...and which was pretty beat already...I consider them all to be success stories, compared to where they were in the "before" photos.

I experimented on a cheap 70's Yankees pennant last night. It had a lot of red graphics and lettering and true to form, ran like crazy. But I discovered the right course of action is to apply more water, not less. I just kept spraying until the water ran clear. The running paint just flows away and doesn't stain the pennant. It seems the red paint degrades over time, more so than other colors and you need to wash away that dead layer until it stops bleeding. To soon to say it's a perfect solution but it worked on this one.

[yankeesjetsfan]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

That's a great idea Rob. Thanks!

Aside from the Redskins pennant...which I have multiple of...just picked up another as part of a lot as a matter of fact...and which was pretty beat already...I consider them all to be success stories, compared to where they were in the "before" photos.

I experimented on a cheap 70's Yankees pennant last night. It had a lot of red graphics and lettering and true to form, ran like crazy. But I discovered the right course of action is to apply more water, not less. I just kept spraying until the water ran clear. The running paint just flows away and doesn't stain the pennant. It seems the red paint degrades over time, more so than other colors and you need to wash away that dead layer until it stops bleeding. To soon to say it's a perfect solution but it worked on this one.

Would happen to have a pic of the Yankees pennant? I would like to compare it to the one I have and see if I can clean it up.

Thanks,

Mike

[perezfan]

[QUOTE=ooo-ribay;1670522]It cracks me up that Mark, who is apprehensive to experiment on his own pennants, is right there with advice! I will say, for the era Mark collects, I doubt he has many white pennants.

Touche, Rob...

The few white ones I do have were all purchased in very clean condition. So I suppose I usually pay too much.

But if I win a cool one that closes on ebay today, I will jump into this endeavor with both feet. It is/was white, it is soiled, and it has all-red graphics (yikes). So it will be an interesting test, if I can just win it. If not for this thread (and both Robs' advice), I would've just watched it without bidding. It's a rare variation for a sixties pennant... really hoping the compromised condition keeps the price down!

[Fballguy]

Here's the before photo...