Help in identifying card

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Posted By: jverri01

I am selling a Cicotte card, and I have absolutely no idea what it is. I have poured through every manual I have, and have come up empty. The closest thing I've seen was a couple of unidentified cards (including a Cobb) that had been in the July/August Hunt auction. It was believed they were "home made" or backed photos. This card looks more modern, and the ink is partially raised, so I do not think it is a home-made card. It looks like a game piece, particularly given the thick cardboard and b&w image. Anyway, I am just curious. These situations drive me crazy. The listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1058565428

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Posted By: MW

James,

The Cicotte "card" very much appears to be a clipping from a magazine or baseball guide that has been pasted to a thicker cardboard stock.

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Posted By: David

I won't hazzard to make a guess on it's identity, and Michael's opinion may be correct. I have seen one or two turn of the century (earlier than this card) extemely rare trade cards in a similar style, though with a rubber stamp advertising on the back. They had similar photoengraved images printed directly onto very thick cardboard.

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Posted By: leon

I know it isn't one but the photo looks like, and has the same characteristics of, that of an Oxford. Or maybe I am "Oxford crazy" right now. I know the stock is way too heavy though.... best regards

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

Really, one of them will know if it is infact a real and vintage issue........Rob Lifson as well!

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Posted By: leon

It actually looks like a Rogers Peet but does not have the exact dimensions. It is bigger otherwise it looks very much like one...has the same lettering, positioning of the picture, etc....also it does not have a number next to the name like the Rogers does...maybe it could be a proof? other thoughts??...regards all

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Posted By: leon

he only played to 1920 and Rogers Peet was in the late 20's and 30's ...oh well, I tried.....

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Posted By: MW

Leon --

The 1930s multi-sport issue that you refer to uses capital letters only in the baseball players' names. Also, the card listed on eBay appears to have an imprecise placement of a picture onto a cardboard stock -- hardly indicative of a card that was manufactured for distribution.

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Posted By: Doug

It is impossible to tell from the image...especially given the picture was taken through plastic. In my opinion it is not a card. The back scan indicates the two papers adhered together don't line up so they must have been glued together. Additionally the paper stock on the back looks much newer than what appears to be newspaper stock on the front.

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Posted By: MW

Looks like NASA material to me too.

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Posted By: BcD

Sad about MJ & his divorce proceedings......kind of ruins his Super hero image. I guess a 25000 sq. foot home was not enough room to resolve his issues or just give in!

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Posted By: leon

Now that I go back and look at them you are correct..and the sides don't match up......at least it furthered the discussion.....dang, I hate when I make a mistake......regards

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Posted By: jverri01

Thanks to everyone for their input. I, too, tend to lean in the direction of it not really being a card. However, I would dispute the "newspaper clipping" on "cardboard" theory, for two reasons: 1-the text is somewhat raised, which would (I think, anyway) indicate a more contemporary printing process, and, 2-even though the edges do not "line up", it does not appear that this is a "layered" piece. The illusion of the edges "not lining up", is actually just an "angled cut" to all edges. Whoever, however, this was cut, it was not done in a perfectly vertical sense, as with most cards. Just some thoughts on this. I did receive an email from another collector who has an identical card (of another player) that he acquired from the same source. He also does not know anything about the origin. If this is not just some homemade jobby, I think the suggestion of it possibly being a proof (perhaps even from a later small-market issue) is an interesting possibility. Particularly given the weight of the paper stock. Thanks, folks...

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Posted By: MW

James,

OK. I wanted to be somewhat diplomatic about this, but to be perfectly blunt, the card you have for sale looks as if it was put together by a second grader.

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Posted By: petecld

I wasn't going to say anything but I see the price for this piece climbing and it is sad.

Ya know, If this poor quality image is the proof version than the actual card must have had an unrecognizable image. This is no proof. This is some xerox glued to a piece of illustration board.

The cut is on a slant you say - those are called bevel cuts. Any one can do this with a hand held cutter that allows you to cut at an angle. Table top cutters are also available. I own a hand held version which I use to cut mats for photos for mounting. Go to an arts/crafts store to the framing section - I'll bet you can find pre-cut mats with this style cut. If it is also wavy then it means the hand held version was used.

So, you know another collector who has another example. IT CAME FROM THE SAME SOURCE!!! There's a shocker. Hello! Anyone else see a red flag here! Just means the guy made 2 of them.

I wouldn't pay a dollar - don't need to - I can make one of these myself.

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Posted By: runscott

I was trying to create a "set" of vintagesque "fantasy cards" and my initial efforts were really poor, as some of you can attest who received my "proofs" (ha ha). I even contacted some of the known forgers for advice, but they of course backed up into their holes. What a bunch of weasels! ...what was I talking about?

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Posted By: jverri01

Petecld: Thanks for the unnecessary arrogance. I never claimed this was not a home made item. I stated in the description of the card, and in my post here on the board that I AM UNABLE TO IDENTIFY the piece. I simply feel it is more productive to state those particular details and unique characteristics of any given piece, leaving people to also develop a hypothesis, as opposed to simply jumping on a pedestool and ranting on about an item, as though my opinion were an absolute (unlike you). And, I particularly appreciate your recommendations about the arts & craft store - which you clearly are a frequent visitor of. jverri01

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Posted By: jverri01

MW, thank you. I respect and appreciate your feedback. I am not in disagreement with you. I simply put this out there to seek the opinions of those folks on the board more knowledgeable than myself. I have not and will not claim it is anything but a piece of cardboard with a picture of Cicotte on it. jverri01

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Posted By: runscott

As a supporter of children's art and also someone who doesn't have a Cicotte card, I feel I can't lose by bidding on this one.

If someone wants a hand-held mat-cutter, I have one cheap - never could get it to cut a straight line. The large ones are great, though.

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Posted By: petecld

You seem to have issues with people who are able to look beyond your sob stories of the "cards" you sell. You post an item for sale claiming you have no idea what it is - then, on this board, you continue on to the possibility that it may be a proof! THAT is arrogance.

Excuse me for recognizing how a card was produced - it keeps me from buying junk pieces and being ripped off. You could have taken what I know and appreciated it but I forgot you don't seem to have a problem selling items they may be fake. Are you under contract to sell this item too?

Seeing as this item is along the order of what you would find in a NASA holder you obviously didn't learn anything from your previous experience.

I have been asked by many people for my opinion on cards offered on ebay and elsewhere and I appreciate that people think enough of me to ask me for my opinion but I have NEVER told ANYONE my opinion is absolute and I never will.

What I love about this hobby the most is the fact that I am still, even after 20 years, leaning new things.