Shoeless Joe Jackson

[mintacular]

Hi everyone, as some of you might know, I'm sorta a novice to pre-war collecting and this era and mostly just know some conventional wisdom... Anyway, I was watching Ken Burns documentary (and I don't want to debate that film per se or Burns himself as I have already asked about that) and to me it seems undisputatble that Joe participated in throwing that series...

So I guess what I'm trying to get at with this thread is that assuming that this version is true (i.e. Joe and others participated in throwing the WS) why in the world would you want to collect his cards/memorablia? It seems to be the ultimate sin to commit this crime of direct cheating and so whatever his overall #'s why would you want to own anything of this guy? Why are his cards such big sellers? I mean atleast Pete Rose (and to some extent Barry Bonds) you could argue were less than moral characters but did not directly throw games...Thus, why is he such a big seller? Seems like he should be the last guy you want to have in your PC. Plz explain...

[Matt]

I don't recall the conclusive evidence he had that Joe participated in the fix. His .375 BA in the Series certainly wouldn't lead you to believe so.

[mintacular]

Again, I have not studied this issue at any length but you would think that Burns would've mentioned some "debate" to this issue but instead it seems (according to Burns) 99% certain Joe was in for the first few games but then maybe changed course midway through the series (when the $ wasn't dlvd) and tried to win the series albeit it too late.

According to the Burns version Joe's wife said it was a horrible thing and my impression was that Jackson never really denied his involvement...So I guess I don't really want to debate the facts of the case per se but more why would you want to own cards of this guy?

Are his cards popular because...

1. There is dispute over whether Jackson was involved
2. His #'s are so huge it doesn't matter
3. Name recognition due to the scandal
4. Other

[fkw]

Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, and Smokey Joe Wood "fixed" games too, and Pete Rose bet on baseball................. and people LOVE to collect their cards too.

I like Jackson for what he did on the field, stat wise.

plus he doesnt have that many cards because of the Era he played in.... just after T206 and before E121...... Not many cards in the teens.

I also like Barry Bonds for what he did between the lines too.

My favorite players are guys that dominated at throwing the ball, hitting the ball, catching the ball, and running the bases....
very simple

[Matt]

Originally Posted by mintacular

According to the Burns version Joe's wife said it was a horrible thing and my impression was that Jackson never really denied his involvement...So I guess I don't really want to debate the facts of the case per se but more why would you want to own cards of this guy?

Joe denied his involvement until the day he died, so I believe your premise is flawed. Hypothetically, if a great player was completely innocent, yet was banned anyway, wouldn't that make for a compelling reason to collect his cards? Your question presumes his guilt which leaves you with not understanding his popularity.

[quinnsryche]

Originally Posted by fkw

I also like Barry Bonds for what he did between the lines too.

Problem with that is he cheated to inflate his stats. None of the other players did anything to make themselves better at baseball. That's the shame of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa etc. x1000 others. No HOF, remove the records, forget about those cheats and let's move on. Maris is the single season HR champ, Aaron is the all time HR champ. Anyone caught doing that should get what Rose and Jackson got, BANNED. McGwire admitted it, Sosa busted, Arod busted and Bonds will get what he's got coming to him next year in court. I hope they throw the book at that jackass. He's the worst thing since segregation to ever happen to baseball's glorious history. SCREW BARRY BONDS!

[M's_Fan]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Problem with that is he cheated to inflate his stats. None of the other players did anything to make themselves better at baseball. That's the shame of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa etc. x1000 others. No HOF, remove the records, forget about those cheats and let's move on. Maris is the single season HR champ, Aaron is the all time HR champ. Anyone caught doing that should get what Rose and Jackson got, BANNED. McGwire admitted it, Sosa busted, Arod busted and Bonds will get what he's got coming to him next year in court. I hope they throw the book at that jackass. He's the worst thing since segregation to ever happen to baseball's glorious history. SCREW BARRY BONDS!

I'm no Barry Bonds fan, but in terms of cheating I'd say he couldn't hold a candle to Cobb or some of the great dirty ballplayers of the deadball era, where spiking, punching, rubbing the ball with shoe polish, mud, spit, vaseline, sandpaper, etc., holding on to guy's belts as they tried to steal bases, slugging them in the gut as they ran by, etc... the one-umpire days of baseball were the dirtiest, most dishonest, ugliest baseball, filled with the most cheating ever seen, no question. The simple reason was, there was only one umpire and they could get away with it.

MLB basically tacitly approved of steroids until they were widespread, and you can bet that many players of bygone eras would be juiced if they would have played in the steroids era! That doesn't make any of this okay, but you have to keep it all in perspective that cheating in sports isn't some kind of new low for humanity, its always been there and maybe always will be.

[glchen]

Out of curiosity about Joe Jackson since I haven't been following the hobby that long, did the value of his cards explode after the movie "Field of Dreams?" Basically, I'm wondering if that very popular movie had any effect on the value of his cards, where people wanted to collect him more.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by glchen

Out of curiosity about Joe Jackson since I haven't been following the hobby that long, did the value of his cards explode after the movie "Field of Dreams?" Basically, I'm wondering if that very popular movie had any effect on the value of his cards, where people wanted to collect him more.

Both "Eight Men Out" and "Field of Dreams" came out during the baseball card boom of the late 80s. Jackson's cards grew in value quite a bit at that time. It would be hard to isolate a percentage of that value due to one of the movies, but it certainly contributed.

[George]

There is absolutely no question that Shoeless Joe accepted $6,000 in cash, through his teammate Lefty Williams, and that he knew all about the plan to throw the 1919 World Series. There is also no question that Lefty Williams and Ed Cicotte, two of the Sox' leading pitchers, did actually throw the games in which they pitched. The fact that the Shoeless One did hit .375 is of minor importance, in my opinion. His known actions were inexcusable, and he richly deserved to be banned from baseball for life.

[fkw]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Problem with that is he cheated to inflate his stats. None of the other players did anything to make themselves better at baseball. That's the shame of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa etc. x1000 others. No HOF, remove the records, forget about those cheats and let's move on. Maris is the single season HR champ, Aaron is the all time HR champ. Anyone caught doing that should get what Rose and Jackson got, BANNED. McGwire admitted it, Sosa busted, Arod busted and Bonds will get what he's got coming to him next year in court. I hope they throw the book at that jackass. He's the worst thing since segregation to ever happen to baseball's glorious history. SCREW BARRY BONDS!

Haha

Pitchers throwing to Bonds, Sosa etc. were jacked on 'roids too..... even field IMO

Screw Mickey Mantle, Aaron, Maris and the rest of them too, they were "jacked up" daily on Greenies (Amphetamines)

Didnt want to get into this but Lajoie, Wagner and that crew did Coke to "get up" for games daily too.
Every Era had its performance enhancers, and restricters

The All Time HR Single Season and Career Leader, Mr. Bonds still had to hit that ball.... and he did it Very Well !

[Bridwell]

Shoeless Joe's cards are vastly overpriced, in my opinion. I don't own any, and don't plan to.

Shoeless Joe has the perfect combination of hype: He's been immortalized in movies, had a great nickname, had some awesome talent and had a train wreck of a career. He was famous and infamous.

He was also left out of a lot of major card sets. So he's high demand in the sets he is in.

[rhettyeakley]

Pat, all of the "Black Sox" have one thing going for them, notoriety. For better or for worse we all know their names and they are a known entity. Compare that with your average "common" and it is no surprise that one would rather have a card of Swede Risberg or Hap Felsh than Chick Fewster or George Dauss. That novelty factor over the years has turned a lot of people to collecting them specifically. Now, collecting Black Sox cards has become one of the most popular niche collection out there.

When I first becan collecting pre-war there was only a slight premium for the Eddie Cicotte & Chick Gandil's versus a common in the T206 set--today that gap has widened significantly.

-Rhett

[mintacular]

For better or for worse we all know their names and they are a known entity. --So theoretically in future years Bonds and Arod would garner more attention/value due to their substance abuse? And wouldn't by this same logic Wagner be more desired if he was involved with a scandal? I guess waht I'm saying is that if Joe's accomplishments were good enough to stand on their own than this scandal should have hurt his collectability yet for some reason it has only helped him...I guess time heals some of these wounds and perhaps Bonds Rose and the like will be forgiven at some point

[rhettyeakley]

Pat, I'm not sure why it is hard to believe that notoriety or infamy of those breaking rules causes there to be much more interest than there otherwise would be. Some of the most valuable signatures belong to some of the lowest forms of life--John Dillinger, Baby Face Nelson, etc., etc.

As human beings we are strangely fascinated by those that break rules. I have one of the first few Beckett/Eckes price guides for baseball cards and in it sets like M101-4 where there are most major HOFers present Jackson is priced at about the same as Walter Johnson, and quite a bit less than Ty Cobb. Obviously, now, Jackson will outsell Cobb all day long. This being said, it is not a hard and fast rule that can be applied to everyone--take Gaylord Perry for example-he admittedly broke rules but isn't very well collected today and doubt he will be garnering any major following in the future--so I don't think Barry Bonds and ARod may be as well collected as you might think--there is nothing romantic about injecting steroids in your a**--however, working for a miserly owner that doesn't pay you very well does provide (to some people out there) a bit of justification for what the Black Sox did.

I agree with the poster above that stated the Black Sox are all vastly overrated BUT I can tell you they are quick sellers when you do have one--so the market (the buyers) have determined thay would rather have a Black Sox player than most HOFers within the same set. There are many that like to romanticize these guys as well, refusing to believe they did what they did. Honestly, barring the scandal a Buck Weaver card would sell for about the same as Jacques Fournier--so in the overall scheme of things Infamy has made some fairly common players into larger than life figures.

On a completely unrelated note...I was thinking about the 1919 White Sox the other day and I gotta admit I feel bad for Nemo Leibold -truly the forgotten 1919 White Sox -he was the only guy in the everyday starting lineup that is neither collected as a Black Sox card nor is in the HOF (Collins, Schalk)--too bad Nemo, you should have taken the money, then we'd all know your name!

[mintacular]

Thanks for you comments. I did not realize that the other "black sox" players were also widely collected...I guess there is no exact formula for how scandal will impact the collector demand for any given player as there are many other factors that are also in play...As someone else mentioned "Field of Dreams" definately seemed to launch these players into the stratsphere in regards to name recogntion.

[quinnsryche]

Originally Posted by fkw

Haha
Screw Mickey Mantle, Aaron, Maris and the rest of them too, they were "jacked up" daily on Greenies (Amphetamines)

Greenies do not make you hit the ball 100 ft. further, grow your body to the size of a professional wrestler or throw a ball 10-15 mph faster. The sad thing about Bonds and the others is that they were very talented before the drugs. Bonds may very well have broken the record clean, but we'll never know because he chose his path to artificially enhanced fame. Stop protecting these clowns, plenty of guys are worth our admiration that didn't go that way, we all know which ones did and which ones didn't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe he was innocent too.

[esd10]

well first off jackson was not educated and probably didnt understand what he was doing all he knew he was getting paid some extra cash. second if arod,clemens ect get into the hof then jackson,weaver and rose should be in there. steroids is cheating to no mater how you try to twist it "saying everyone was doing it" thats a load of crap not all the great players like griffey jr didnt use steroids and he had a great career even with all his injurys. Jackson was one of the greatest players of the dead ball era and he needs to be in the hof for all the great things he has done.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by esd10

well first off jackson was not educated and probably didnt understand what he was doing all he knew he was getting paid some extra cash.

Sorry, I don't buy this idea that Jackson was so ignorant he didn't understand what he was doing was wrong. From all accounts Joe Jackson was not well educated BUT he was not mentally challenged or anything. Betting on baseball, throwing games, etc. are the "cardinal sin" of baseball--there were signs at every ballpark in america stating it was fobidden at the time to bet on baseball--Jackson knew what he was doing when he accepted the money.

[esd10]

well what im trying to say he might not understand the penaltys and the after effects of this scandal when he did it.

[Ladder7]

Why collect?.. Great ballplayer and a good man, just got caught. Doesn't deserve the Hall of Fame Hall of Fame though... Sorry to say, neither does the Ginger Kid.


Joe's testimony in Sept 1920, to the Asst DA;

...Q Did anybody pay you any money to help throw that series in favor of Cincinnati?

A They did.

Q How much did they pay?

A They promised me $20,000 and paid me five.

[bbcard1]

Shoeless Joe is a romantic character...his omission from the Hall of Fame, much like Pete's, has done more to make him famous than his inclusion would have. Had everyone just vote in him ago, he would have been spoken of in more or less the same way as Cap Anson or Al Simmons are... which is to say not much. Which is why I would open the doors wide for McGwire, Bonds, Clemens and not worry much about it. But I can certainly respect hard core opinions on the other side of things. Folks in the middle are the problem.

[Republicaninmass]

"I'm no Barry Bonds fan, but in terms of cheating I'd say he couldn't hold a candle to Cobb or some of the great dirty ballplayers of the deadball era, where spiking, punching, rubbing the ball with shoe polish, mud, spit, vaseline, sandpaper, etc., holding on to guy's belts as they tried to steal bases, slugging them in the gut as they ran by, etc... the one-umpire days of baseball were the dirtiest, most dishonest, ugliest baseball, filled with the most cheating ever seen, no question. The simple reason was, there was only one umpire and they could get away with it."


I'd like to see that kind of stuff return to today's game!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Shoeless Joe is a romantic character...his omission from the Hall of Fame, much like Pete's, has done more to make him famous than his inclusion would have. Had everyone just vote in him ago, he would have been spoken of in more or less the same way as Cap Anson or Al Simmons are... which is to say not much.

There is some truth to this, but then again he not only had one of the great nicknames of all time, he hit .356.

[dstraate]

I hope I'm not out of line or bringing up taboos or anything, but

http://cgi.ebay.com/1930s-ADOLF-HITL...item3f05aeda7a

I was shocked when I saw this on EBay at 500 bucks. For me, the joy of collecting hinges upon identifying with a player. Even with Joe Jackson, I can put aside the unsavory reputation and admire the ballplayer. Heck. I like guys with a bad reputation because there have been times in my life when I've been less than perfect.

Still, there's really no way I can identify with Adolph. I can't imagine anybody could. Unless this is going to become a part of a propaganda exhibit, I don't get it.

[ALR-bishop]

In Jackson's testimony before the Cook County Grand Jury, which is publicly available ( I have a copy), he clearly admits taking the money and it is also pretty clear he knew exactly what was going on. In fact, there is some discussion in the testimony that he was upset that others were paid more than he got and for that reason may have decided not to participate.

[Ladder7]

David Straate, Yes, it's offensive and we all know that some of our species' freaks of nature will collect anything.

But, Im at a loss... What the Hell does it have to do with Jackson?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

In Jackson's testimony before the Cook County Grand Jury, which is publicly available ( I have a copy), he clearly admits taking the money and it is also pretty clear he knew exactly what was going on. In fact, there is some discussion in the testimony that he was upset that others were paid more than he got and for that reason may have decided not to participate.

I'm admittedly not an expert on the topic, but I believe he retracted the admission not too long after.

One other point - taking the money but not changing how he played in the games is very different then actually throwing a game. Granted, as a policy, the league must enforce the former, because it would be near impossible to prove that a player struck out on purpose, but the integrity of the game is only actually impacted by the latter.

[dstraate]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

David Straate, Yes, it's offensive and we all know that some of our species' freaks of nature will collect anything.

But, Im at a loss... What the Hell does it have to do with Jackson?

I guess, more than anything, I have no issues collecting cards of a guy that may/may not have fixed games when there's a market for cards from the worst guy in all of humanity. To be entirely honest, I saw that card after reading this thread and thought that if people collect his artifacts, then Joe's supposed transgressions pale in comparison. I didn't intend to offend you. I just couldn't believe that when I saw it.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Stop protecting these clowns, plenty of guys are worth our admiration that didn't go that way, we all know which ones did and which ones didn't.

We do??

[mybuddyinc]

As pretty much stated already, people love infamy.

I don't know much about non-sports cards, but I do know the Hitler cards in the Horrors of War set have a heck of a higher demand and price.
Also the good old 1956 Adventure set. Any non-boxing card hardly has any value, the boxers go for $10-20, but throw out a Schmelling (Swastika) and you in the $500 range.


The worst thing that could happen to the value of Jackson cards, would be IF he was inducted in the HOF.


A lot of no-goodness is now baseball legend: From the 1876 Louisville Four to the 1890's Baltimore Orioles (they not only worked the Balt. chop, and the hit and run, but were also famous for cutting across the infield when going from 1st to 3rd), to the Phillies in early 1900's using electric buzzers and Morse code at 3rd base coaching box, Etc. Etc.


A very notable amount of games were fixed, the Black Sox was just an ultimate zenith. Not saying it's right, just that it was (or is).


My favorite answer to cheating allegations was when early 1900 middleweight Philadelphia Jack O'Brien was accused of throwing fights. His response was something like: "Yes, I have thrown many fights in my career. I have fought Bob Fitzsimmon, Marvin Hart, Tommy Burns, Stanley Ketchel, and Jack Johnson. Who do you want to talk about first ??" All charges were dropped !!

[mighty bombjack]

I can't find them right now, but I have seen the splits for Jackson on the games that the Sox won and lost in that series. I believe that the fixers instructed the players as to which games were to be lost, and Jackson not only hit poorly in those games but also committed fielding errors. It speaks to his talent how well he hit when he was allowed to, and that's why he had such a high average for the series.

Can anyone find those splits for us?

Also, I'd like to add that not every collector is a moralist. Talent often comes with great personality flaws, and humanity can be very collectible.

[ls7plus]

I think that Joe's iconic status is due not only to his performance throughout his career, but also in part to the fact that maybe we like our heroes tragically flawed--makes them a bit more real, more human, just like the rest of us!

[Matt]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I believe that the fixers instructed the players as to which games were to be lost, and Jackson not only hit poorly in those games but also committed fielding errors. It speaks to his talent how well he hit when he was allowed to, and that's why he had such a high average for the series.

I find this counter-argument to Joe's .375 average incredibly implausible. That any MLB hitter was so gifted that he could hit .375 in a World Series, while all the while throwing away at bats - would infer he would have been able to hit something like .700 or .800 if he was actually trying; it is absurd. To me whether he took the money or not is open for discussion - whether he threw the games is not.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Matt

I find this counter-argument to Joe's .375 average incredibly implausible. That any MLB hitter was so gifted that he could hit .375 in a World Series, while all the while throwing away at bats - would infer he would have been able to hit something like .700 or .800 if he was actually trying; it is absurd. To me whether he took the money or not is open for discussion - whether he threw the games is not.

Well, here are the splits:

Game 1, Reds win 9-1, Jackson goes 0-4
Game 2, Reds win 4-2, Jackson goes 3-4
Game 3, White Sox win 9-1, Jackson goes 2-3
Game 4, Reds win 2-0, Jackson goes 1-4
Game 5, Reds win 5-0, Jackson goes 0-4
Game 6, White Sox win 5-4, Jackson goes 2-4
Game 7, White Sox win 4-1, Jackson goes 2-4
Game 8, Reds win 10-5, Jackson goes 2-5

In White Sox wins, Jackson goes 6-11 for .545 avg
In Reds wins, Jackson goes 6-21 for .285 avg

From Baseball Almanac: "Joe Jackson had batted a Series-leading .375 but acknowledged that he had let up in key situations."

From wikipedia: "Some believed that most of his offensive potency came in games that were not fixed and/or when the game appeared out of reach." (The World Series by Cohen, Neft, Johnson and Deutsch cited)

So many point to that .375 and say he couldn't have been involved. I say differently.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

In White Sox wins, Jackson goes 6-11 for .545 avg
In Reds wins, Jackson goes 6-21 for .285 avg

You realize that in games where your star hitter doesn't do well, you have a significantly smaller chance of winning, and that has nothing to do with cheating, right?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Matt

You realize that in games where your star hitter doesn't do well, you have a significantly smaller chance of winning, and that has nothing to do with cheating, right?

All other things being equal, I'd have to agree, but they were not equal.

You realize that there WAS a fix in this series, and that Jackson at the very least knew about it, right? (maybe you don't, given that you quoted the stats but edited out the mention of Jackson admittedly letting up in certain situations)

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Matt

I'm admittedly not an expert on the topic, but I believe he retracted the admission not too long after.

You mean after he was banned for life and realized that he would never play pro ball again (and was no longer under oath in a court of law)? Is that when he retracted his admission?