Mastronet, I may be wrong here but let's here opinions??

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Posted By: dan mckee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan [bandache@comcast.net]
> Sent: Mon 2/19/2007 6:30 PM
> To: Peter Calderon
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: Lot #960
>
>
>
> ok thanks Pete
> Why isn't paperloss and writing on back mentioned in the auction lots?
> That is a very significant condition distraction to any card.
> Do you agree?
>
> dan
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Calderon" <pcalderon@mastroauctions.com>
> To: "Dan" <bandache@comcast.net>
> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 6:22 PM
> Subject: RE: Lot #960
>
>
> > The loss on Adams is in the lower left corner. It's right at the corner
> > and triangle shaped... make a 3/16" square box and cut it in half
> > diagonally to get an idea on the size.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dan [bandache@comcast.net]
> > Sent: Mon 2/19/2007 4:42 PM
> > To: Peter Calderon
> > Cc:
> > Subject: Re: Lot #960
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks Pete
> > How bad is Adams?
> > Just a pin head or significant?
> > He is 1 of my upgrades
> >
> > thanks
> > dan
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Peter Calderon" <pcalderon@mastroauctions.com>
> > To: <bandache@comcast.net>
> > Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:55 AM
> > Subject: Lot #960
> >
> >
> > > Hi Dan,
> > >
> > > A few cards have little spots of paper loss: Adams, Cicotte, Engle,
> > > Walker
> > > and Wingo.
> > >
> > > Peter

EDITED TO SURPRESS MY IRISH TEMPER. YES MY BUTTONS GOT PUSHED BY THE RESPONSE BUT MY ANGER IS AT THE AUCTION HOUSE RULES, NOT PETE OR DOUG OR ANY ONE PERSON. Dan.

EDITED ONCE AGAIN ON THE REQUEST OF A GOOD FRIEND THAT CHEWED MY ASS.

I KNOW THIS IS GOING TO BE HARD TO BELIEVE BUT SOMEONE MAY ACTUALLY MISS ME 1 DAY!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Good Lord, that is weak. "Everyone collects differently?" And everyone sells differently, too. Mastronet sells in a way that will maximize its profit at the expense of full disclosure, honesty and fairness. This one is laughable.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I also want to note that some of us still collect cards and don't care about the damn grading! We have a right to know if a PR FR 1 has paperloss or writing on it! It matters to us!

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Posted By: JK

Collectors usually preach that you should "buy the card, not the grade." Apparently Mastro preaches that we should "buy the grade, not the card." Pretty funny.

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Posted By: Mike

I am a "newer" collector of prewar cards and I have been contemplating auction venues like mastronet as I come into more and more disposible income...After reading that I have just crossed mastronet off my list...another sad commentary on the hobby in my opinion.

Mike

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Posted By: barrysloate

They are no longer Mastronet, they are Mastro Auctions. No matter how you feel about them, they have a new name!

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Posted By: DD

I don't fault Doug Allen for not answering Dan's e-mail. However, I do fault him for allowing Pete Calderon to answer so condescendingly. The disparaged collectors from this board, implied in his response, probably contribute 7 figures towards Mastro's annual gross sales. To so casually insult a group of people, and Dan directly, is inane at best.

My ex-boss was a former deputy director for Consumer Affairs, and OMB in New York City. When I worked as a consultant for him, he taught me to never put anything in writing unless you were comfortable with the fact that 1000's of people could see it. It seems that Pete should have his work reviewed; both communication and grading.

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Posted By: whitehse

As bad as the content of the response is(and its another reason why they will never get the small change I have to buy cards) I am even more surprised at the unprofessional nature of the response from Mastronet.

I just cant believe what has happened to this hobby!

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

If you're charging a 20 percent buyer's premium and a similar percent commission, I think you can take the time -- or at least make an attempt -- to accurately grade and describe items and condition. Trying to explain away the lack of an accurate description or omitted information by saying "everyone collects differently" is not only laughable, it's flat-out deceitful.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I should mention that Doug wasn't written to about this current lot. I wrote to Dougie about the lot I won a year ago and after I won it. Only Pete and I have conversed on this current T207 lot. I still have the description from the lot I won a year ago and with absolutely no mention of paperloss or writing in it. Though the correct amount of cards were graded poor to fair, I still feel that a collector has a strong right to know if there is paperloss or writing on a card as some of us still collect to collect and not just to play the grading numbers game.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The issue is disclosure. You can sell anything as long as you describe it accurately.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Rob, now we're screwed; I can see it now: an email from Doug telling us that due to the high cost of responding to all customer emails, in order to maintain a first-class operation the BP will be raised to 109%.....

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Jeff,

I'm convinced that before I leave this world, I'll see an auction in which the buyer's premium/penalty is higher than the bid price.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

The best thing to do with these auctions are pick and choose the lots you like as soon as possible. If you feel strongly about a lot then it's probably a good idea to ask as many questions as possible while the auction is young. We can all request scans. Asking questions and requesting scans early in the auction helps the auction house because when there's one day to go they are probably being bombarded with questions. Requesting detailed scans early in the auction benefits the buyer because you can eliminate the lot early on if it's not what you were hoping for.

I've learned through the school of hard knocks about getting the information early. The impulse bids on lower grade material are the ones that have hurt me in the past.

Dan, I agree that the response Pete provided wasn't exactly polished and it could have been better thought out before the SEND button was hit but he's probably right about people asking more questions about lower grade cards. From that you would think that they would deduce that more detailed descriptions for those cards may benefit them by having fewer disappointed buyers after the auction is closed.


I wonder which message board was being referred to from this part of the email:

And gee, ya think they might whine about that on some message board somewhere????

I chuckled a bit when I read that -

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Posted By: Sean C

After having been hosed a few times by non-disclosed back damage on cards in auction lots I've won (tape stain and paper loss on a 1941 Play Ball Pee Wee Reese rookie was the biggest, but there have been others) , I'll now email the auction house before bidding on raw lots. I just wish that it didn't have to be that way, and that they would be up front about it.

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Posted By: leon

I feel the need to say a couple of things about this thread. First of all, for the most part, I don't want to see personal emails on this board. That has always been the rule and it still is. This is in unusual situation though. I was at a softball board meeting last night when this started so didn't see it till there were several posts. If I stopped it it would have been seen as protecting an advertiser which I will not do. So since it was going I needed to let it go. In Pete's defense on the quoted statement about this board....I sort of agree.

I know Dan, Pete, and most of the folks at Mastro Auctions pretty well. Not a bad apple in the bunch. Great folks. Every one of them. As for this situation with the back damage. If you read what Fred said, I echo his thoughts. If there is back damage on cards I do feel it should be disclosed if there are no scans. With that being said it is probably impossible to go over every minute detail of every, lower valued, pr-fr graded (slabbed or unslabbed) card. At the end of the day us buyers do need to ask the questions as Dan did. Maybe that is the lesson that can be learned from this.....best regards

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Posted By: dan mckee

I am sorry Leon, I wasn't familiar with that rule and you can feel free to hack this thread off. Yes all of the Mastro people are good people.

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Posted By: JK

Leon,

I completely disagree with you about Pete's condescending comment about this board. It was rude, insulting and unprofessional. I would usually classify the "whining" on this board as legitimate criticism - only the target, be it psa, mastro or some other hobby entity, is likely to deem it "whining".

****

With respect to mastro getting more questions about low grade lots - well that only makes sense as there is far more inconsistency in the grading at that level. Pete's complaint about the number of questions received on low grade lots sounds to me to be more a statement about the importance mastro places on such lots and their purchasers as compared to high grade expensive lots. Sure sucks being an armpit collector.


My personal recommendation - you need to ask for front and back scans for any lower to mid grade lot offered by mastro since their pictures are usually pretty small and descriptions vague. I won a group of e93s along with some partners not too long ago. All were graded by psa between about 2 and 5. mastro did note in their description that some cards had small amounts of paperloss but otherwise presented nicely - nothing specific about individual cards since they were all graded. The scans were too small to see smaller spots of paperloss on the reverses. Of course, you would have thought the cards with paperloss would be confined to the lower grades. As it turns out, the paperloss wasnt confined to the lower grade cards - 3s, 4s and 5s had spots of paperloss as well.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

You guys can't seriously be disputing the accuracy (and therefore humor) of Pete's comment about the board, can you?

Wow, time to step back and get some perspective. Are you guys offended, and this is just a theory here, because maybe it hits a little too close home? Maybe a little TOO true? Just a thought.

-Ryan

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Mmmmh Ryan...

Being made aware and then discussing that Mastro 'prepares' cards for grading, when this fact was previously unknown - whining? Really?

Becoming aware and discussing that a large Auction House owner was previously sentenced to jail for defrauding people out of donations - whining? You are kidding me, right?

Mastro telling us they won't take the time to describe accurately damage to cards because it is too time consuming, and wouldn't make collectors of low grade material happy anyway, and board members finding that insulting and condescending - whining? Well...

So be it if such discussions are merely whining in your opinion, or simply opportunistic pot shots from a few board members.

I instead would call it information that is reasonable, and expected, and serves the average hobbyist well when they are spending their money on pieces of card.


Daniel

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Posted By: Jason L

about the Board that everyone is referring to?
I just looked at this, and the thread doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Dan, you're mad, but everyone at Mastro are fine folk? what were you upset about, simply a lack of disclosure? or was there more?

whatever the case, looks like things are smoothed out...lesson learned is to just ask alot of Q's early-on?
sounds good to me.

and yes, JK, if you are a buyer, buy the card, if you are a seller, sell the holder!

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Posted By: Joann

I have to say I feel a little bad for Pete regarding his comment about this board. I don't know him at all, but from everything I've heard he's a decent guy.

It's no secret that this forum will dissect the heck out of just about anything the major auction houses disclose or do. For him to point that out is completely understandable, and I don't think his choice of language is all that different from what any of us might say in an informal moment.

These things always remind me of something my mom used to say ever since we were very, very small - and it comes true much of the time. "Don't ever write anything down that you wouldn't want printed in the newspaper." Good words to live by - I'm pretty careful with anything written because of that. And what's happening here with Pete's comment is a perfect example of why it's good practice.

Joann

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Posted By: Steve M.

search as I might I can't find the comment. Might be helpful if it hadn't been edited out. Since that appears to have been this thread should be locked up as it is meaningless.

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Posted By: JK

Jason,

The reason this thread no longer makes sense is because the comment, contained in one of Pete's emails, has been edited out of the first post.

That should not have been done even if the initial post was done in haste as it changes the context of the thread and makes it difficult to follow.

Pete essentially implied that many people who posted on this board are a bunch of whining cry babies.

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Posted By: JK

The actual comment was:

"And gee, ya think they might whine about that on some message board somewhere????"

However, it loses its context without the remainder of the email.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan edited the above emails between he and Pete to remove the offending portions.

Look, we all understand that cards described as VG or F get to that grade for a reason. But it wouldn't have hurt Mastro (except perhaps financially) to describe cards with paper loss as such. What attribute of a card is more important to a collector? Mastro's writers seem to know every single adjective in the English language. Perhaps "paper loss" can be part of their vocabluary going forward.

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Posted By: Cat

"Pete essentially implied that many people who posted on this board are a bunch of whining cry babies."

He left out sniveling!!!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hmmm. I wonder what Mastro's response would be if an auction winner refused to pay for an invoice: might whining be involved?

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Face it, Mastro is running a big business, once that happens the little guy and the hobby courtesies that we are use to get thrown out the window.

Peter

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Posted By: Jason L

Per JK: "Pete essentially implied that many people who posted on this board are a bunch of whining cry babies"
--Thats not fair for him to say, he hasn't even met me yet!
although Cat, I rarely snivel, as it were...it's been likened to more of an annoying wheeze, I've been told.

Not being party to any of this, I would like to comment on something that is coming to me at least 5th-hand...I find it disappointing that dealers, sellers, etc think it's good business practice to not fully or accurately describe the merchandise they are selling, and then disparage the potentital clients who would have questions...if that is what happened here, it's too bad.

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Posted By: Dave

I'm curious with all the bad publicity that many (not all) of the auction houses have received lately how many of you guys here with high dollar cards would just as soon put them up on ebay as to deal with these auction houses?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dave, I recently sold a very expensive card on ebay instead of giving it to one of the auction houses due to the high fees involved. As it were, the amount I netted on ebay from the card is more than I would have received had I sold it through the auction houses.

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Posted By: Steve M.

but this thread is an unwarranted slam at the auction house and the description of this lot. The lot consists of 153 cards of varying condition. Is it really expected that the description of a GD card needs much more than that. Does every little teensy weeny mark, wrinkle, crease, stain, remnant, paper loss, etc, ad nauseum have to be detailed for what is described as a card in GD condition? I trust that when Pete grades out a raw card as GD he has taken all faults into consideration in making that assessment. I personally don't need more than that.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Daniel,

Yes, whining.

There was a legitimate issue that was brought up regarding the disclosure (or lack thereof) of a particular auction. That is not whining. The discussion that ensued about how much or how little disclosure is appropriate is also not whining. The posts by those who found Pete's answers to have less disclosure than they would have liked are also not whining. No, all of those directly deal with the issue at hand and just because someone voices their discontent it does not automatically mean they are whining.

But people whine on this board all the time only they would never consider it whining because they feel justified about what they're whining about. The more righteously indignant one is the less likely they are to consider what they're doing as whining.

I'm not talking about anyone in particular and I do not exclude myself from this group, by the way.

It's all so deliciously ironic that I've gotten several laughs out this thread, unexpectedly. It's usually only the political threads that make me laugh. But you, Daniel, whining about my post where I agree with Pete's comment about whining on the board, well that's just classic. And now to top it off, here I am whining about you whining! Too much fun!!!

The only thing that's funner is when one of a few select board members posts and I picture them saying "How dare you, sir!" when they whine about something and then take their glove off their hand and slap their computer screen with it, bringing them great satisfaction.

Sadly, Daniel, I don't know what you look like so I was deprived of this simple pleasure during your post.

-Ryan

P.S. In my opinion the issue of disclosure is easily resolved by having huge scans of each lot. Huge scans of EVERY card. Sure, it's more work, but so what? Why isn't it reasonable to have large scans that make even small flaws visible and let the bidders decide for themselves what the condition is?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I've seen Mastro put up to 10 pictures or more on a lot....how hard would it be for them to take a lot of 150 pr/fr cards and put up a picture of 30 at a time front and back scans? Not difficult at all...I see lots posted like that on ebay all the time.

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Posted By: JK

Ryan - couldnt agree more about having large scans, front and back. IMO, that's where mastro has gotten itself in trouble - there pictures are small and rarely in such high quality as to allow bidders to really see the cards' warts. I havent checked it out myself, but I understand that they may now have added the capability of clicking on a picture and getting a blown up scan.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

A lot labeled as crappy doesn't need more details. It is when you start labeling cards vg that saying oh, by the way, there is paper loss, is important. I think a lot of folks here in the past have lambasted Steve Verkman and Larry Fritsch for grading along those lines.

Personally, I'd love to see more and bigger scans. Why is it that Huggins & Scott and Heritage, to name two off the top of my head, can offer front and back scans that can be enlarged for detail, and Mastro at 35% comm/vig can't?

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Posted By: William

Just an example from lots that closed last night. (Please forgive these lots, as they are not pre-WWII cards).

Contrast this lot:

http://mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=67406&CurrentRow=101>

A 1952 Topps Andy Pafko in Vg. This card had front and backs scans. The card sold for $261 w/juice.

With this lot:

http://mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=67403&CurrentRow=101>

This lot of 18 different rare #131-180 gray back 1952 Topps has the verbage

"Some cards possess eye appeal that's more favorable than the stated grades imply; these items bear condition discrepancies that affect only the cards' reverse sides."


Since 33% or 6 cards were graded by Mastro as less than Vg, one can only assume those 6 cards has back damage. But how much? There is no scan to let bidders know.

If this lot had scans of the back damaged cards, this lot would have most likely gone for more than $1,220 w/juice, because I would have bid on the lot if the back damage wasn't too severe. It is possible the lot went cheap.

Granted I could have emailed or called or whatever and gotten scans , but I just passed on the lot, as it wasn't that critical I got the cards and said the hell with it.

This is just a good example of why backs need to be scanned, as the consignor most likely lost money because there were no scans of the back of the cards.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The catalog descriptions are often convoluted and difficult to understand, with flowery language and puffery that sometimes is more confusing than it is helpful. They could say the same thing better with half the number of words.

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Posted By: peter chao

Barry,

Your right, there is way too much hype in auctions today, what happened to the good old baseball card auctions. I'm sure Mastro has consulted with the marketing people and the marketing people guarantee that the hype works.

Peter

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Barry,

Having been a newspaper copy editor for 10 years or so now, I've suggested to countless writers about how much more powerful the written word can be when it's succinct. And I've thought the same thing countless times when reading many auction catalogs.

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Posted By: cmoking

How often on this board to we go "wow" and "geez" and "unbelievable!" at the high prices we see on Mastro? There is zero evidence from the prices they get that their superfluous descriptions hurt consignors.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm sure they write in the style they do for a reason, and I suppose all the superlatives do make lots sound better than they are. However, most people I speak with would prefer their descriptions were succinct and to the point. But I highly doubt that will change. And who knows, maybe in some way it does bring higher prices.

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Posted By: Dave

I guess we are all whining crybabies because we want our money's worth when we bid and try to win auction lots. I guess we're all whimers because we expect to be given fair and accurate descriptions from auction houses who make insane amounts of money from our whining bids....whatever Mastronet

Reading the "Whining crybaby" comment has really turned me off to the big auction houses....I always thought they considered a lot of us peon's , and his comment kind of solidified that for me.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Dave, what's a peon?
Though in all likelihood I am in fact one without knowing


Daniel

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I don't think anyone believes that Mastro's laughable prose hurts the prices it garners on its lots; I think the cards sell themselves for the most part. The prose is obnoxious, is all.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Agreed -

I'd just rather see a description that says: G condition, heavy crease with pencil writing on the back than ....

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Their catalogs would be smaller and lighter, and I wouldn't have to spend so much time in the can to read them

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Adam,

The Collectors Classic Auctions for Mastros use the smaller catalog format. It's those BIG auctions that they have a couple/few times a year where they kill a couple trees in an effort to provide us with reading material while we're sitting on the can.

You'll notice that the Collectors Classic Auction catalogs are for us people at the first grade level of reading - we like to look at the pictues only. The BIG auction catalogs are for grown ups because that's where you can sit on the can for hours and read all the flowery and poofy descriptions that we have all learned to have BMs to.

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Posted By: Doug Allen

Wow that Pete is a trouble maker! Seriously I wanted to take a couple minutes to respond to comments made on this forum.

First and foremost I consider Dan McKee and his father great collectors and good friends. I do believe it is unfortunate he chose to include a private e-mail on this public forum and I told him such. I have no problem with his communicating the general message but I believe the tone of Pete's e-mail was related to his comfort level with Dan personally. He won't make that mistake again! Pete that is...I can't control Dan.

I guess the most disturbing comment was the following "Mastro is running a big business, once that happens the little guy and the hobby courtesies that we are use to get thrown out the window." Although we make mistakes I really hope this is not the case.

Let me make a couple comments and listen for your response as I do value your feedback:
#1 There were comments about small images...we have done two proactive things first we went from what used to be a 16 items per page format in the book to 9 items per page and more importantly we began image serving out of the new location which allows you to blow up every image to allow for clearer viewing. This should be less of an issue as we continue to improve this.
#2 We allow for open viewing for each and every auction. If there are lots you want to personally view we would be happy to host you and even provide some great Chicago Style Pizza!
#3 We are pretty good at providing feedback on lots when questions arise. As long as the request is reasonable we ty to be responsive.

Regarding the issue at hand. Our goal is to accurately describe a lot and depict images that support a majority of the value. In many cases 10% of the volume represents 80 to 90% of the value. Those are the cards we try to depict. I do agree that if a card is described as GD-GD/VG or lesser and are not considered to be cards of significant value (as 28% of this lot was) no futher detail as to specifics leading to grade are necessary. On the other hand I agree that if cards are VG or better more detailed descriptions of imperfections such as writing, back damage, etc should be clearly disclosed. If we have failed in this regard we need to make corrections. I discussed Adams card specifically with Pete. He indicated the minor paper loss on the corner did not impact the lettering and it has a solid VG/EX front. In his estimation it is still a VG card.

Overall I believe Pete does a fantastic job and is very good at what he does...he is also living his dream!

I guess that is it for now....very interested in your thoughts.

Sincerely,
Doug Allen