O/T but what about the ending price?

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Posted By: Dave

http://cgi.ebay.com/GEORGE-WASHINGTON-THOMAS-JEFFERSON-CUT-AUTOGRAPH-1-1_W0QQitemZ150089873185QQihZ005QQcategoryZ20876QQr dZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Bill K

I wonder what priceless historical docuemnts Topps destroyed to bring you that abortion of a card? I would LOVE to own a signature of Washington, Adams, or Jefferson but not that way.

Bill

My personal collection - http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/

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Posted By: Steve f

It just seems wrong. But, it is America and both 'rebels' would likely not have a problem with it.

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Posted By: Dave

Maybe this isn't off topic.....the signatures are pre-war right?

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Posted By: Jason L

every war!

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Posted By: Dylan

Arent these sigs selling for more cut out and pasted to a new baseball card then they would if you were purchasing them with the complete document that was originally auto'd from mastro or somewhere? I know they sell historical autos so maybe someone who buys them can chime in?? If thats the case, it makes no sense to me, but neither does "game used" jersey cards either

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I'm not defending Topps here but...

There are a lot of "cut" signatures on the market for sale. I would have to believe that Topps isn't going to buy an important document just to cut it up so that they can get a Geo Washington signature. My guess is that they bought cuts and made the card.

Actually, I find it interesting and I wouldn't mind having something like that if I knew for sure that Topps didn't intentionally destroy a document to get the sigs.

Could you imagine, Topps purchasing one of the copies of the Declaration of Independance and then cutting it up to put chase cards in their boxes of cards? I'll trade a crappy D304 Cobb for the Buttons Gwinnett signature!

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Posted By: davidcycleback

My opinion is that for $14,000, something should be better looking.

I assume the Washington was bought cut, as it's smaller than the hole. I've always assumed that the card companies cut down documents to get the cut baseball signatures. Many obviously came from checks, contracts and other documents. While many collectors don't care if baseball jerseys and bats are cut apart, I suspect opinions might might be different it it is found out that Topps and Upper Deck were destroying complete Thomas Jefferson and George Washington documents. Washington and Jefferson signatures aren't rare (US Presidents sign tons of stuff), but many would object to the idea of destroying their letters. However, as noted, they could have these two signatures already cut.

For those who don't follow autographs, in cases excluding Topps and Upper Deck cards, an entire good document (letter, contract, hunting license, personal bank check, other) is worth much more than than the signature cut off. That's whether the document's from Robert E. Lee or Manny Ramirez. The normal, modern autograph collector wouldn't cut Ty Cobb's signature from a bank check or George Washington's signature from letter.

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Posted By: Myron

I wish I was the seller. $14,000 would come in really handy.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A key to understanding this card's purchase is that the winner likely isn't a collector of
Jefferson and Washington autographs, and a collector of Washington and Jefferson
autographs wouldn't value this card as being worth anything near $14,000.

Similarly, most serious game used bat collectors I know of (as in people who
collect the entire bat or jersey) think its an abomination to cut up a Jackie
Robinson or Ty Cobb bat to make those game used bat cards. The average buyer of
the game used cards is not a serious game used collector.

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Posted By: Jim Dale

I can't believe they'd chew up a solid collectible document for a signature cut on a card? But then I never thought some stupid company would cut up the only Ruth jersey of its kind either.

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Posted By: Anonymous

^^^Ruth uniform? I've not heard the story of that. Care to elaborate? Thanks.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Card makers have cut up all sorts of stuff to make the cards, including bats and/or jerseys from Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Wagner, Jackie Robinson, Mantle, etc. They win them in auction or otherwise buy them, then cut them up. If you look through the Sotheby's/Barry Halper Auction, I'm sure a number of those jerseys have been cut up and now now reside piece by piece on cards. I'm pretty sure the pictured Ty Cobb Philadelphia A's was one of the jerseys cut up.

It should be noted that MLB/MLBPA have control over the production of baseball cards (how many, type, etc), as Topps and Upper Deck can't produce MLB cars without MLB/MLBPA license (MLBPA = Player's Assoc.). So if collectors wanted to complain about the practice, they can complain to MLB/MLBPA. Unlike Topps or Upper Deck, which only cares about this year's $$, Major League Baseball may be convinced that destroying historical relics is not a good idea. MLB likes money of course, but also is concerned about the game's history and its preservation.

Anyone who follows baseball card hobby knows that, while that 11 year old might like game used cards today, in ten years these cards will be worth little and you can't go back and put Babe Ruth's jersey together again. I bet that in ten years most of the collectors of these cards will look back at these jersey and bat cards and say, "Jeez, that was a stupid fad. I paid how much for a card with a piece of Babe Ruth's pants?!?! Oh well, I was only 12 and 12 year olds act stupid sometimes."

On the other hand, if Topps is purchasing already cut cut signatures and putting them on Topps cards, there's nothing wrong with that. A cut signature has to reside somewhere and on a Topps card is as good a place as anywhere. Topps also hires living players to sign cards that were designed to be signed by the player, and that is a fine idea for making a collectible to put into packs.

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Posted By: joe brennan

Not defending Topps on this subject, but alot of documents have very little historic value with sigs of famous people. The value of the auto far out weighs the document itself. Washington talking about cleaning up trash on his farm or putting a bill in place banning smoking near a church are not thought of as important documents. There was a time before Topps that a Washington document was sold line for line, (cut up), sometime in the 19th century or early 20th century. There are pages of that document that are missing that would bring huge money today. So the practice of cutting up documents is far from modern. I don't like it, but wouldn't mind owning his sig.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I think the start of this thread was about the financial value of the Topps Washington/Jefferson card-- and not whether Topps was cutting up stuff. The key being that someone paid $14,000 for a pair of cut signatures where this winner would not pay a $1,000 if they were not affixed to a Topps 1/1 card. In other words, the value of the card is $1,000 for the autographs (example price) and $13,000 for the rectangular piece of cardboard with Topps and 1/1 printed on it.

There's nothing wrong with purchasing these cut signatures. I'd like to own a pair pair of Washington and Jefferson cut autographs. Most people on this board would think it would neat to receive as birthday present a cut George Washington autograph matted and framed with a picture of Valley Forge or Mount Vernon. In fact, some would remark that that was the best birthday present they've ever received. It's not Topps' cut signatures (assuming they were bought already cut), it's the price price tag that is goofy.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

raises his hand. Ah, sir, I actually REALLY like these pieces of memorabilia cards.
I won't pretend to have an argument to convince anyone else. I just enjoy the format, the concept, and the execution. I think the cut auto's look much more interesting in a created card format than letter form, and as long as no 'seriously' important doc. gets destroyed for it - don't mind in the slightest to have the hancock redeployed to new environs.
I also really enjoy the game used memorabilia, especially patch items, though I don't collect them all too much.
Visiting Chris's "Zup's Sportscards" site (http://www.freewebs.com/cezupsic/), I was completely blown away by his Gehrig numbers patch card, and a truly astounding Dimaggio Green Patch that defies recognition and description.

I actually don't believe that most game-used come from 'one off' type items, and that indeed much surviving memorabilia exists in sufficient numbers to donate an example or so to the card world. Whether they are worth anything in the future doesn't worry me in the slightest, I actually just enjoy being able to look at and have contact with items used by actual players of the game. And looking at them on-line in museums doesn't give me the same kind of feeling.

David, I disagree completely and think EVERY cent of this card's auction price has to do with the sigs and the fact they have authentication/provenance beyond what most people will be able to establish.

I fully expect nearly no one else will agree, but that's ok - I don't go to Church on Sunday either


Daniel

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Daniel, I like and buy the player signed insert cards (not the cut signatures, but where they directly signed the cards). So, while I'm no fan of the cutting apart of a Ty Cobb jersey, I can testify that the card companies have produced insert cards that appeal to me as a collector.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Thats cool too David. So many many ways to collect


Daniel

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Posted By: Kyle

Its not even George's autograph, its his name hand written in the context of a document.

http://www.fadedgiant.net/html/washington_george.htm






Maybe the buyer bought it knowing Topps had screwed up.

-Kyle-