Altered PSA C55 Vezina

[Anish]

Hi,

I know this is not baseball, so I apologize if this is not appropriate to post, but since it concerns PSA and PWCC I figure it is relevant to many of you.

This is a card that has previously sold:


This is how it appears in the PWCC auction preview:


There was a stain on the back and it seems that the card was treated in a way to remove it. The color now appears lighter. The top left corner has also been touched up.

I have emailed PWCC about it.

Thanks,
Anish

[irv]

Originally Posted by Anish

Hi,

I know this is not baseball, so I apologize if this is not appropriate to post, but since it concerns PSA and PWCC I figure it is relevant to many of you.

There was a stain on the back and it seems that the card was treated in a way to remove it. The color now appears lighter. The top left corner has also been touched up.

I have emailed PWCC about it.

Thanks,
Anish

We have seen this more than a few times with PSA and PWCC, but it could simply be that the owner/previous owner had it cleaned up then resubmitted it to PSA then consigned it to PWCC?

It is definitely the same card and it has definitely been cleaned up/doctored some but I'm not sure if PWCC will disclose that or not now that you have brought it to their attention?

[botn]

Originally Posted by Anish

There was a stain on the back and it seems that the card was treated in a way to remove it. The color now appears lighter. The top left corner has also been touched up.

I have emailed PWCC about it.

Thanks,
Anish

If you have not read through this thread http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=234837, then you should. I recreated the submission that contained the card that was topic of that thread. I found before pictures on some and posted them. All of the cards in the submission were listed in that current auction.

Similarly, the Vezina is also cleaned up and was part of a larger submission and conveniently most if not all of the cards from the submission are in the current batch of listings. I did not recreate the whole submission because I got bored but here is a small run.

It is not rocket science to figure out what is going on over at PWCC.

27898937 E98 Wagner PSA 2.5
27898938 E95 Cobb PSA 2
27898939 E95 Mathewson PSA 4.5
27898940 D304 Cobb PSA 1.5
27898941 E90-1 Young PSA 4.5
27898942 C55 Vezina PSA 4.5
27898943 N300 Anson PSA 5
27898944 T206 Griffith Port PSA 4
27898945 T206 Joss Pitching PSA 3.5
27898946 T206 Lajoie Port PSA 4
27898947 T206 Evers Bat Chi On Shirt PSA 5
27898948 T206 Chance Red PSA 4
27898949 T206 Young Port PSA 3.5
27898950 T206 McGinnity PSA 4
27898951 T206 Young Bare Hands PSA 4
27898952 T206 Lajoie Port PSA 1
27898953 T206 Waddell Port PSA 4
27898954 T206 Dahlen PSA 4.5
27898955 T206 Joss Pitching PSA 5
27898956 T206 Johnson Port PSA 2
27898957 T206 Young Bare Hands PSA 4
27898958 T206 Cobb Bat Off PSA 2
27898959 T206 Cobb Red PSA 4
27898960 No Grade
27898961 T206 Cobb Bat On PSA 2.5
27898962 T206 O'Hara Stl PSA 4
27898963 T206 Demmitt PSA 4
27898964 T206 Cobb Green PSA 3
27898965 N162 Dunlap PSA 4.5
27898966 No Grade
27898967 N28 Kelley PSA 4
27898968 N28 Kelley PSA 5.5
27898969 N28 Comiskey PSA 5
27898970 N28 Clarkson PSA 4.5
27898971 N28 Anson PSA 4
27898972 N28 Anson PSA 4
27898973 N28 Clarkson PSA 6
27898974 N28 Oakley PSA 7
27898975 T227 Cobb PSA 3.5
27898976 T227 Cobb PSA 4
27898977 1915 CJ Baker PSA 3

[Peter_Spaeth]

Card doctoring? Yawn. Let's talk about people overcharging for shipping.

[Andrew1975]

I bid on this PSA 2 T227 Baker yesterday on eBay. PWCC auction. I am currently the high bidder with seven days left.



After I bid, I found this on VCP from a May, 2016 PWCC auction...



It appears to be the same card, after being soaked or cleaned in some fashion. Somewhat interesting that PSA graded it more harshly (presumably due to the still moderate staining on the reverse). What was more interesting to me, however, was that the white spot/discoloration on Baker's face seems to have disappeared.

The same card also sold in a 2008 Goodwin auction, in SGC holder, with the white spot clearly visible in the scans. Here is the scan from the 2008 auction...



I suppose it could be a scuff or mark on the SGC slab, hard to tell just by photos. Thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[swarmee]

SGC pictures look like paper loss on cheek, but if it was, I would figure SGC would grade it worse than a 3. So it's probably not. Back does look cleaner, but then the top right corner has a new "black" tip/wear.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Andrew1975

I suppose it could be a scuff or mark on the SGC slab, hard to tell just by photos. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that you will likely find many other cards from my list above, which is not the complete submission, which have probably been attempted to be cleaned, etc.

[Andrew1975]

Thanks for the input, gents. John, I hadn't noticed the black discoloration on the corner. Also, it does seem unlikely that it could have been given a 3 if the spot was in fact paper loss... Greg, I don't doubt that the card was cleaned. Was just curious if the white spot could have been something that was on the surface of the card that was removed during cleaning, or if it could have been a defect that was "corrected" in some other way. Obviously, without the card in hand, we can only speculate.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Card doctoring? Yawn. Let's talk about people overcharging for shipping.

HAHA. Ebay takes a % of the shipping cost now anyway. You have to mark up everything 30% just to cover yourself from a loss

[Andrew1975]

The PSA 2 Vezina and SGC 40 Baker appear to have been purchased by the same buyer (w***1) in 2016 PWCC auctions.






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[irv]

Originally Posted by Andrew1975

The PSA 2 Vezina and SGC 40 Baker appear to have been purchased by the same buyer (w***1) in 2016 PWCC auctions.

Interesting!

Also interesting that the SGC 3, after it was "worked" over only received a 2 from PSA?
The "work" maybe went a little farther than expected and had a opposite effect?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by irv

Interesting!

Also interesting that the SGC 3, after it was "worked" over only received a 2 from PSA?
The "work" maybe went a little farther than expected and had a opposite effect?

Even the best doctors lose occasionally. Let's talk about postage though.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Even the best doctors lose occasionally. Let's talk about postage though.

Yes, that is far more important than doctored/worked over cards, by far!

Speaking of which, do you remember that card that had the bent corner which was returned and repaired with no change in the grade?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Even the best doctors lose occasionally. Let's talk about postage though.

I can pull off a two for one here. We have a member that says PWCC has the best shipping.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by irv

Yes, that is far more important than doctored/worked over cards, by far!

Speaking of which, do you remember that card that had the bent corner which was returned and repaired with no change in the grade?

I sure do! In my book that was one of the most incredible revelations I've read on this board- PSA flattened down a corner they'd bent- then returned it with a
Grade of Mint 9. No one else seemed to have blinked but I'll never forget that thread.

[swarmee]

Are you sure it was a 9; thought it was a 7 or 8 at the time.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Are you sure it was a 9; thought it was a 7 or 8 at the time.

I'm sure it was high grade. The post is deeply buried in another thread, possibly in Cortney's first empty threat PWCC rant ( which in itself was a classic because all of the chest pounding , name calling and inability to figure out how to post his damning evidence).

[Stampsfan]

I kinda throw up a little in my mouth when I think about that arrogant dick Curtney, and the drivel he posted.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

I'm sure it was high grade. The post is deeply buried in another thread, possibly in Cortney's first empty threat PWCC rant ( which in itself was a classic because all of the chest pounding , name calling and inability to figure out how to post his damning evidence).

Here you go. I think it slipped under the radar of most.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=227030

[Anish]

Originally Posted by botn

If you have not read through this thread http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=234837, then you should. I recreated the submission that contained the card that was topic of that thread. I found before pictures on some and posted them. All of the cards in the submission were listed in that current auction.

Similarly, the Vezina is also cleaned up and was part of a larger submission and conveniently most if not all of the cards from the submission are in the current batch of listings. I did not recreate the whole submission because I got bored but here is a small run.

It is not rocket science to figure out what is going on over at PWCC.

27898937 E98 Wagner PSA 2.5
27898938 E95 Cobb PSA 2
27898939 E95 Mathewson PSA 4.5
27898940 D304 Cobb PSA 1.5
27898941 E90-1 Young PSA 4.5
27898942 C55 Vezina PSA 4.5
27898943 N300 Anson PSA 5
27898944 T206 Griffith Port PSA 4
27898945 T206 Joss Pitching PSA 3.5
27898946 T206 Lajoie Port PSA 4
27898947 T206 Evers Bat Chi On Shirt PSA 5
27898948 T206 Chance Red PSA 4
27898949 T206 Young Port PSA 3.5
27898950 T206 McGinnity PSA 4
27898951 T206 Young Bare Hands PSA 4
27898952 T206 Lajoie Port PSA 1
27898953 T206 Waddell Port PSA 4
27898954 T206 Dahlen PSA 4.5
27898955 T206 Joss Pitching PSA 5
27898956 T206 Johnson Port PSA 2
27898957 T206 Young Bare Hands PSA 4
27898958 T206 Cobb Bat Off PSA 2
27898959 T206 Cobb Red PSA 4
27898960 No Grade
27898961 T206 Cobb Bat On PSA 2.5
27898962 T206 O'Hara Stl PSA 4
27898963 T206 Demmitt PSA 4
27898964 T206 Cobb Green PSA 3
27898965 N162 Dunlap PSA 4.5
27898966 No Grade
27898967 N28 Kelley PSA 4
27898968 N28 Kelley PSA 5.5
27898969 N28 Comiskey PSA 5
27898970 N28 Clarkson PSA 4.5
27898971 N28 Anson PSA 4
27898972 N28 Anson PSA 4
27898973 N28 Clarkson PSA 6
27898974 N28 Oakley PSA 7
27898975 T227 Cobb PSA 3.5
27898976 T227 Cobb PSA 4
27898977 1915 CJ Baker PSA 3

Yes, I have read through that thread. Thank you for the information.

Originally Posted by conor912

Here you go. I think it slipped under the radar of most.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=227030

Wow. That's appalling.

After some back and forth, PWCC has said they will be returning the card to the consignor.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

I sure do! In my book that was one of the most incredible revelations I've read on this board- PSA flattened down a corner they'd bent- then returned it with a
Grade of Mint 9. No one else seemed to have blinked but I'll never forget that thread.

It's not that everyone didn't see it, it is that no one cares. Otherwise very intelligent people turn to blithering idiots or just turn a blind eye to all the bad things in our hobby. It is why the con artist are so plentiful, the baseball card/memorabilia community goes out of it's way to help them out as much as possible.

[CW]

Originally Posted by Andrew1975

I suppose it could be a scuff or mark on the SGC slab, hard to tell just by photos. Thoughts?

Interesting. Had that card on my watchlist as well. You can still see the "spot" on the PSA graded scan -- it's now has a blue tint to it, rather than being white. Good catch.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It's not that everyone didn't see it, it is that no one cares. Otherwise very intelligent people turn to blithering idiots or just turn a blind eye to all the bad things in our hobby. It is why the con artist are so plentiful, the baseball card/memorabilia community goes out of it's way to help them out as much as possible.

Stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff. The common criminals that pervade the hobby surely are laughing at us, all the way to the bank. As one card doctor said, I am giving guys what they want.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff. The common criminals that pervade the hobby surely are laughing at us, all the way to the bank. As one card doctor said, I am giving guys what they want.

Yeah but it's fun to watch everyone work up a good lather anyway.

You get what you put up with.

[Anish]

I believe this was a Brent Moser special from a couple years ago.

I remember Brent’s response at the time was that restoring cards was common practice and that restoration need not be disclosed.

I also remember a BVG Altered Vezina that was removed from the slab and listed without any disclosure.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by Anish

I believe this was a Brent Moser special from a couple years ago.

I remember Brent’s response at the time was that restoring cards was common practice and that restoration need not be disclosed.

I also remember a BVG Altered Vezina that was removed from the slab and listed without any disclosure.

When did Brent say that?

[swarmee]

Wow, I must have completely forgotten about this.

[egbeachley]

Now can we say the paper loss on the cheek was recolored?

[Anish]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

When did Brent say that?

This is what he said a couple years ago

[swarmee]

That's a great email screenshot. Nice to see that Brent is assuring us of the sanctity in the collecting community of Dick Towle.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Anish

This is what he said a couple years ago

I'm glad you saved that! It might come in handy to a few, especially the part where he states he is not even opposed to mentioning this card was a 2.

[Andrew1975]

Here is the email I sent to Brent regarding the T227 Baker, as well as his response.

Andrew
An-dr-ew Fin-kel-man

Attachment 1

IMG_0918.jpg


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[Collect Equity]

Wow, this thread is pretty incredible.

If I am reading it right, 2 years ago it was brought to PWCC's attention that they had a user who was buying and altering cards and then sending them back to PWCC for auction.

From this thread, this user has the ebay bidder ID of w***1 and that is now known to be Moser.

PWCC's response to this was PSA is responsible for grades assigned and Dick Trowle is respected, so maybe I'll mention that this card is altered but only if the consigner (who happens to be Moser) is okay with it. So he basically is acknowledging it is happening and passing the buck of responsibility onto PSA, respected alterers, and his major consigner Moser.

Do you think he even asked Moser about it?

If I am getting any of the facts on this wrong, please let me know.

But if I am reading this right, then someone with an account on BlowOut should definitely cross-post this thread on BlowOut's PWCC thread - https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...297351&page=24

I think it would be good for the community at large to find and read this once obscure thread Vezina thread