Hobby history: Card dealers of the 1960s: James T. Elder (+ hobby drama, 1968-69)

[Hot Springs Bathers]

About two years ago I noticed some really great older college football programs for sale on eBay from a pair of seller IDs with Elder1 and Elder2 or something close to that. They were from Odessa, Florida. Is Jim still going or is/was this family selling off material?

[darkhorse9]

Andy

I'd love to see some of those 1970's price lists. That's where I got my first "vintage cards" (1951 Bowman Johnny WyrosteK).

I remember he was always pushing the Pacific Coast league Popcorn Cards. Never got any of those. I wondered for years what those were.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

About two years ago I noticed some really great older college football programs for sale on eBay from a pair of seller IDs with Elder1 and Elder2 or something close to that. They were from Odessa, Florida. Is Jim still going or is/was this family selling off material?

I neglected to mention in the original post that Elder appeared in the 1958 Sport Fan Who's Who as a 16-year-old student. That means he was born about 1942, and could very well still be active in the hobby. I bet that's him on eBay.

[Leon]

More great hobby history. Thanks David!!

[jsq]

David, very good research, thank you for posting. here is one of your quotes:

"Throughout the 1950s and most of the 60s, the hobby of collecting baseball cards was dominated by kids and teenagers, with a relatively small number of adult men, most of whom felt a need to keep a low profile because it was considered weird. "

that is spot on, clear into the mid 1970's anyone over about the age of 13 or 14 who collected baseball cards was considered very strange and "suspect" it was not normal nor allowed in the society of that day for an adult to collect baseball cards, both kids and most adults thought an adult collecting baseball cards was VERY unusual. todays hobbyists who were not collecting back then can not imagine the looks one got if they said they collected bb cards as an adult. it was only when it appeared you could make money buying and selling cards that it became acceptable in society for adults to collect cards.

i believe what we witnessed back then in terms of adults collecting cards being viewed as very weird was the non collectors envisioned 35 and 50 year old men cheating 10 year olds out of the current years cards somehow. this of course was the exact opposite of what was occuring. the adults wanted little to do with the current cards and certainly did not want a bunch of kids bugging them about todays big star. (in the 1970's you had such future hall of famers as vida blue, mark fidrych and sure to be for sure to be perenial all stars like ron lefore ....oops something happened on the way to the hall of fame) the collectors were first and foremost fans of baseball history and the players who already had their career finished or near finished and had proven they deserved to be in the hall of fame, thus old cards were the focus as were publications in a BIG way. kids were seen purely as a nuisance but the outsiders could not envision the baseball history aspect of the hobby focusing only on older cards.

i was fortunate to hang out with several of the biggest card collectors of any era. 2 of which sold their collections to al rosen and the third who co-founded what became mastro net. all agreed on one thing in 1974, do not bother with cards mfr after 1961, if you want a set for curiosity fine, but so many were printed they would never be worth anything. that was straight from the horses mouth from people who at the time were some of the most advanced collectors in the hobby and had been in the hobby for 20 years plus, ie don steinbach, mike keasler.

this avoidance of cards mfr after 1961 seems profoundly stupid looking back from today. however that was very logical at the time, the hobby had almost zero growth, and all the people in it had the current sets issued up to 1974. so who were you going to in the future sell your 1969 set to? look at the advertisements for hotel buying groups from those mid 70's years, they almost all advertised that they wanted only cards pre 1961 or 1964. the old saying you can't judge a man unless you walk in his shoes highlights the difference of how cards are viewed today and how they were viewed then and likewise how collectors are viewed today vs pre 1978 or so. the beckett guide really changed how the hobby was viewed.

also, note the complaints by gondek in the above segment, he is mentioning as his focus, buying lots of old sports publications. this is where he sees great cards advertised at what we now know are great prices, yet he focuses on publications, not the cards. i do not know when the shift occured but sports publications were more cherished then baseball cards for a very large number of hobbyists in the early days. once again to compare to today, many people collect old sports publications but relatively few as a % focus on the sports publications over the cards. this was very different back then. the collectors of sports publications with a minor in card collecting so to speak was quite normal.

maybe it had to do with the stigma of collecting cards as an adult. collecting old sports pubs did not have the stigma attached to it.

amazing what peer pressure can do to a group of people. also give some thought to the fact that the adult card collectors of that bygone era were somewhat immune to the existing peer pressure might be an accurate conclusion.

[Leon]

That is a really great write up, or summation, and I hadn't seen it until rabbit-holing something else just now. Early hobby pubs are still a great collecting niche for me and a few others. And of course, post-1961 cards are hotly collected today, many years later.

Originally Posted by jsq

David, very good research, thank you for posting. here is one of your quotes:

"Throughout the 1950s and most of the 60s, the hobby of collecting baseball cards was dominated by kids and teenagers, with a relatively small number of adult men, most of whom felt a need to keep a low profile because it was considered weird. "

that is spot on, clear into the mid 1970's anyone over about the age of 13 or 14 who collected baseball cards was considered very strange and "suspect" it was not normal nor allowed in the society of that day for an adult to collect baseball cards, both kids and most adults thought an adult collecting baseball cards was VERY unusual. todays hobbyists who were not collecting back then can not imagine the looks one got if they said they collected bb cards as an adult. it was only when it appeared you could make money buying and selling cards that it became acceptable in society for adults to collect cards.

i believe what we witnessed back then in terms of adults collecting cards being viewed as very weird was the non collectors envisioned 35 and 50 year old men cheating 10 year olds out of the current years cards somehow. this of course was the exact opposite of what was occuring. the adults wanted little to do with the current cards and certainly did not want a bunch of kids bugging them about todays big star. (in the 1970's you had such future hall of famers as vida blue, mark fidrych and sure to be for sure to be perenial all stars like ron lefore ....oops something happened on the way to the hall of fame) the collectors were first and foremost fans of baseball history and the players who already had their career finished or near finished and had proven they deserved to be in the hall of fame, thus old cards were the focus as were publications in a BIG way. kids were seen purely as a nuisance but the outsiders could not envision the baseball history aspect of the hobby focusing only on older cards.

i was fortunate to hang out with several of the biggest card collectors of any era. 2 of which sold their collections to al rosen and the third who co-founded what became mastro net. all agreed on one thing in 1974, do not bother with cards mfr after 1961, if you want a set for curiosity fine, but so many were printed they would never be worth anything. that was straight from the horses mouth from people who at the time were some of the most advanced collectors in the hobby and had been in the hobby for 20 years plus, ie don steinbach, mike keasler.

this avoidance of cards mfr after 1961 seems profoundly stupid looking back from today. however that was very logical at the time, the hobby had almost zero growth, and all the people in it had the current sets issued up to 1974. so who were you going to in the future sell your 1969 set to? look at the advertisements for hotel buying groups from those mid 70's years, they almost all advertised that they wanted only cards pre 1961 or 1964. the old saying you can't judge a man unless you walk in his shoes highlights the difference of how cards are viewed today and how they were viewed then and likewise how collectors are viewed today vs pre 1978 or so. the beckett guide really changed how the hobby was viewed.

also, note the complaints by gondek in the above segment, he is mentioning as his focus, buying lots of old sports publications. this is where he sees great cards advertised at what we now know are great prices, yet he focuses on publications, not the cards. i do not know when the shift occured but sports publications were more cherished then baseball cards for a very large number of hobbyists in the early days. once again to compare to today, many people collect old sports publications but relatively few as a % focus on the sports publications over the cards. this was very different back then. the collectors of sports publications with a minor in card collecting so to speak was quite normal.

maybe it had to do with the stigma of collecting cards as an adult. collecting old sports pubs did not have the stigma attached to it.

amazing what peer pressure can do to a group of people. also give some thought to the fact that the adult card collectors of that bygone era were somewhat immune to the existing peer pressure might be an accurate conclusion.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by jsq

David, very good research, thank you for posting. here is one of your quotes:

"Throughout the 1950s and most of the 60s, the hobby of collecting baseball cards was dominated by kids and teenagers, with a relatively small number of adult men, most of whom felt a need to keep a low profile because it was considered weird. "

that is spot on, clear into the mid 1970's anyone over about the age of 13 or 14 who collected baseball cards was considered very strange and "suspect" it was not normal nor allowed in the society of that day for an adult to collect baseball cards, both kids and most adults thought an adult collecting baseball cards was VERY unusual. todays hobbyists who were not collecting back then can not imagine the looks one got if they said they collected bb cards as an adult. it was only when it appeared you could make money buying and selling cards that it became acceptable in society for adults to collect cards.

Here is an article by John England from the September 1965 Sports Trader that expresses very well the attitude that adult collectors faced.

[nickedson]

During the early 1970s, I bought cards several times from James Elder. His prices were always fair and his service was great. I was just a college kid at the time and didn't have much extra money, but what I remember most about guys like James Elder, Frank Nagy and Don Steinbach was how respectful they were to everyone, including young collectors like myself.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

About two years ago I noticed some really great older college football programs for sale on eBay from a pair of seller IDs with Elder1 and Elder2 or something close to that. They were from Odessa, Florida. Is Jim still going or is/was this family selling off material?

The last I heard it was still Mr. Elder

Rich

[Jason]

Im not sure how I missed this the first time around as I really enjoy these posts. That was a interesting read and perspective from earlier days of the hobby. Thanks David.