NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used > Autograph Forum- Primarily Sports

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-25-2017, 10:17 AM
pbspelly's Avatar
pbspelly pbspelly is offline
Paul S
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 329
Default Is there a thread that explains how autographs are authenticated?

I saw that SGC offers signature verification on-site at some card shows. Forgive my ignorance, but I've never understood how this works. Do they need a previously authenticated item to compare it to? Do they consider the backstory behind the item ("my great-granduncle lived next door to Fielder Jones" sort of thing?) If all the authenticator has is the item to be authenticated, can they do it with just that alone, based on looking at the ink or the item signed?

I'm kind of hesitant to waste your time educating me, so I was wondering if there is already a thread (or website) that does a good job explaining how autograph authentication works.
__________________
On the lookout for Billy Sullivan Jr. and Sr. memorabilia
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-25-2017, 10:29 AM
Bestdj777 Bestdj777 is offline
Chris
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 2,567
Default

Steve Grad appears on Pawn Stars occasionally and goes through the authentication process. There may be a video or two of one of his authentications online. Basically, he looks under a microscope to determine whether it is live ink and then compares it with exemplars on his computer. It's pretty straight forward and I imagine is similar to what is done at any of the authenticators.
__________________
Mantle Master Set - as complete as it is going to get
Yankees Game Used Hat Style Run (1923-2017): 57/60 (missing 2008/9 holiday hats & 2017 Players Weekend)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-25-2017, 01:47 PM
Topnotchsy Topnotchsy is offline
Jeff Lazarus
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,062
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestdj777 View Post
Steve Grad appears on Pawn Stars occasionally and goes through the authentication process. There may be a video or two of one of his authentications online. Basically, he looks under a microscope to determine whether it is live ink and then compares it with exemplars on his computer. It's pretty straight forward and I imagine is similar to what is done at any of the authenticators.
I've seen that and always assumed (hoped, prayed etc.) that the explanation he gives there is a simplification. I imagined it also requires real familiarity with the styles and elements of a huge number of players signatures, an understanding of handwriting dynamics to help spot fakes etc.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-25-2017, 03:15 PM
Lordstan's Avatar
Lordstan Lordstan is offline
M@rk V3l@rd3
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 3,754
Default

Signature verification is different in my mind that autograph authentication.

On-site Signature verification is the process by which you get an item signed by the guest and then someone at a desk slap a label on your item in essence saying that "this item is real as it was signed here in front of us".
Of course the problem is that the workers may not be close enough to see your item signed and there fore have to trust that the item you bring to them is the item you got signed. There is a famous video of one of the groups authenticating an item for a reporter that had just had a photo signed and then signed one herself copying from the real thing. The authenticator said to her "you look honest" and certed the fake photo.

Autograph authentication is the process where people bring/send in items for a reviewer to examine. The process should include steps like
1) making sure the item could have actually been signed by the player. For example, say a Ty Cobb signed Lee MacPhail AL Ball is obviously fake as Cobb was not alive when those balls were made.
2) Making sure the item is actually signed rather than pre-printed. Using a microscope or similar would make sense
3) Making sure the signature itself looks the way it should taking into account the letter formation the player had during the time period it was signed, Flow, presence of starts/stops, angles, and other things. Usually this is done, by using a file of known exemplars as a reference.
4) Provenance- Now this is tricky one as there are just as many bad stories out there as bad autographs, but if you had a signature of Ruth on a govt contract that originated from the Smithsonian you'd be hard pressed to say it's bad even if there were some irregularities. Not saying they can't have been faked, but I think you would probably give them a little more slack.

The unfortunate reality is that Autograph Authentication is really a misnomer. All Authentications are just OPINIONS. PSA, JSA, Beckett, and all the others are not GUARNTEEING that an auto is authentic. They have no financial responsibility if they happen to be wrong. You are paying for whatever peace of mind you can get that someone who knows more than you thinks it's good. This is not bashing them. Giving an opinion is a legitimate service.

Now if you want guarantees, the only ones you can get are from reputable dealers like Jim Stinson and Richard Simon who will take back an auto they sold, at any time, if you ever are given reason to believe it's not good. They are not "authenticators" per se, but there is nothing more reassuring then knowing your seller stands behind the product he sells
__________________
My signed 1934 Goudey set(in progress).
https://flic.kr/s/aHsjFuyogy

Other interests/sets/collectibles.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/96571220@N08/albums

My for sale or trade photobucket album
https://flic.kr/s/aHsk7c1SRL
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-25-2017, 07:14 PM
mattjc1983 mattjc1983 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 285
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordstan View Post
Signature verification is different in my mind that autograph authentication.



On-site Signature verification is the process by which you get an item signed by the guest and then someone at a desk slap a label on your item in essence saying that "this item is real as it was signed here in front of us".

Of course the problem is that the workers may not be close enough to see your item signed and there fore have to trust that the item you bring to them is the item you got signed. There is a famous video of one of the groups authenticating an item for a reporter that had just had a photo signed and then signed one herself copying from the real thing. The authenticator said to her "you look honest" and certed the fake photo.



Autograph authentication is the process where people bring/send in items for a reviewer to examine. The process should include steps like

1) making sure the item could have actually been signed by the player. For example, say a Ty Cobb signed Lee MacPhail AL Ball is obviously fake as Cobb was not alive when those balls were made.

2) Making sure the item is actually signed rather than pre-printed. Using a microscope or similar would make sense

3) Making sure the signature itself looks the way it should taking into account the letter formation the player had during the time period it was signed, Flow, presence of starts/stops, angles, and other things. Usually this is done, by using a file of known exemplars as a reference.

4) Provenance- Now this is tricky one as there are just as many bad stories out there as bad autographs, but if you had a signature of Ruth on a govt contract that originated from the Smithsonian you'd be hard pressed to say it's bad even if there were some irregularities. Not saying they can't have been faked, but I think you would probably give them a little more slack.



The unfortunate reality is that Autograph Authentication is really a misnomer. All Authentications are just OPINIONS. PSA, JSA, Beckett, and all the others are not GUARNTEEING that an auto is authentic. They have no financial responsibility if they happen to be wrong. You are paying for whatever peace of mind you can get that someone who knows more than you thinks it's good. This is not bashing them. Giving an opinion is a legitimate service.



Now if you want guarantees, the only ones you can get are from reputable dealers like Jim Stinson and Richard Simon who will take back an auto they sold, at any time, if you ever are given reason to believe it's not good. They are not "authenticators" per se, but there is nothing more reassuring then knowing your seller stands behind the product he sells

The biggest problem I have with the big third party authenticators (of autographs and cards) is not that it's an opinion, but that they won't ever admit when their opinion is proven wrong.

They're so careful to disclaim any guarantee, yet they also are so protective of their reputation that they refuse to admit mistakes even when pointed out to them. To my knowledge PSA never has commented on Bill Mastro's admission that the Wagner was trimmed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Successful transactions with: jp216
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-25-2017, 08:52 PM
GrayGhost's Avatar
GrayGhost GrayGhost is offline
Scott
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Connecticut.
Posts: 9,089
Default

Good topic
__________________
Baseball is our saving Grace!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-28-2017, 11:19 AM
pbspelly's Avatar
pbspelly pbspelly is offline
Paul S
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 329
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordstan View Post
Signature verification is different in my mind that autograph authentication.

On-site Signature verification is the process by which you get an item signed by the guest and then someone at a desk slap a label on your item in essence saying that "this item is real as it was signed here in front of us".
Of course the problem is that the workers may not be close enough to see your item signed and there fore have to trust that the item you bring to them is the item you got signed. There is a famous video of one of the groups authenticating an item for a reporter that had just had a photo signed and then signed one herself copying from the real thing. The authenticator said to her "you look honest" and certed the fake photo.

Autograph authentication is the process where people bring/send in items for a reviewer to examine. The process should include steps like
1) making sure the item could have actually been signed by the player. For example, say a Ty Cobb signed Lee MacPhail AL Ball is obviously fake as Cobb was not alive when those balls were made.
2) Making sure the item is actually signed rather than pre-printed. Using a microscope or similar would make sense
3) Making sure the signature itself looks the way it should taking into account the letter formation the player had during the time period it was signed, Flow, presence of starts/stops, angles, and other things. Usually this is done, by using a file of known exemplars as a reference.
4) Provenance- Now this is tricky one as there are just as many bad stories out there as bad autographs, but if you had a signature of Ruth on a govt contract that originated from the Smithsonian you'd be hard pressed to say it's bad even if there were some irregularities. Not saying they can't have been faked, but I think you would probably give them a little more slack.

The unfortunate reality is that Autograph Authentication is really a misnomer. All Authentications are just OPINIONS. PSA, JSA, Beckett, and all the others are not GUARNTEEING that an auto is authentic. They have no financial responsibility if they happen to be wrong. You are paying for whatever peace of mind you can get that someone who knows more than you thinks it's good. This is not bashing them. Giving an opinion is a legitimate service.

Now if you want guarantees, the only ones you can get are from reputable dealers like Jim Stinson and Richard Simon who will take back an auto they sold, at any time, if you ever are given reason to believe it's not good. They are not "authenticators" per se, but there is nothing more reassuring then knowing your seller stands behind the product he sells
this is very helpful. thanks
__________________
On the lookout for Billy Sullivan Jr. and Sr. memorabilia
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-28-2017, 11:44 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
ja.ke liebe.rman
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/mysetregistry/set/348387
Posts: 5,738
Default

I would imagine if you are a decent artist, and someone commissioned you to fake a Fred Lynn (random example) autograph and you gave them 3 years to come up with the perfect signature, i just think that he or she could do it perfectly.

Now thats an extreme example, but i dont buy autos for the reason that someone with just a few months of practice may win the opinions of these vaunted graders..

Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 04-28-2017 at 11:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MEARS Auctions Ends Saturday, September 29th, 2012 - Many Authenticated Autographs MEARSAUCTIONS Autograph Forum- Primarily Sports 9 09-29-2012 02:39 PM
Autographs authenticated by Treat? slidekellyslide Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 2 03-19-2010 10:43 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:18 AM.


ebay GSB