BBCE 1952 Topps Wax Pack "Brick"

[steve B]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Not in salt water, they would be gone pretty quickly.

Maybe? The wax paper would probably seal it, and if I remember it right cellophane could last a long time, even in seawater.

Assuming it's true, which is debateable, I think it would be worth having a look.

[ALR-bishop]

Steve— you should write to James Cameron about taking this on as a follow up to The Titanic ... The Barge

[frankbmd]

You would think that one waterlogged Mantle would have made it to the Jersey shore or Long Island to verify the barge dump. He was young and likely an above average swimmer.

[steve B]

The problem of course is that even if true, and even if the packaging protected the cards a bit, the barge company probably made it a habit of offloading in roughly the same area, and probably did so into the 60's if not later.

So the cards will be under at least a decades worth of other "stuff"

[Volod]

Originally Posted by steve B

The problem of course is that even if true, and even if the packaging protected the cards a bit, the barge company probably made it a habit of offloading in roughly the same area, and probably did so into the 60's if not later.

So the cards will be under at least a decades worth of other "stuff"

I wonder how many species of marine worms and other bottom feeders would see waxpaper and pasteboard as a veritable feast from above?

[T.S. OConnell]

I read these posts with some interest, initially because I wondered why the cellophane-enclosed business was somehow being honored. Then after awhile I noticed all the talk about whether or not Sy Berger had actually dumped the cards in the Long Island Sound. Since I wrote the story from an interview with Sy - one of a half dozen I did over 20-plus years - where he told the story, I can offer my assurances that he was almost certainly telling the truth at the time. There would have been no reason to make the story up, and in any event Sy wouldn't have done so. And he did tell me 400 cases. As to my initial interest in this thread, why was the cellophane wrapped arrangement given a pass in the first place? Seems to me that finding eight unopened 1952 Topps packs would have prompted immediate slabbing and grading and then simple sale through a major auction house.

[swarmee]

It's because one of the 1952 Topps pack finds was originally wrapped in cellophane by Fritsch, and so that it has some hobby history/provenance in such a fashion. The packs aren't owned by JustCollect (or they weren't during the National), just consigned, and the owner wants to try to sell them in this format first. If he doesn't get a buyer, JustCollect may convince him to have them slabbed. But since pack grading takes a few months, the owner may not have wanted to delay the sale that long.
And at half a mil for 8 packs, there's no demand for a flipper to buy it and sell off the individual packs.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by T.S. OConnell

I read these posts with some interest, initially because I wondered why the cellophane-enclosed business was somehow being honored. Then after awhile I noticed all the talk about whether or not Sy Berger had actually dumped the cards in the Long Island Sound. Since I wrote the story from an interview with Sy - one of a half dozen I did over 20-plus years - where he told the story, I can offer my assurances that he was almost certainly telling the truth at the time. There would have been no reason to make the story up, and in any event Sy wouldn't have done so. And he did tell me 400 cases. As to my initial interest in this thread, why was the cellophane wrapped arrangement given a pass in the first place? Seems to me that finding eight unopened 1952 Topps packs would have prompted immediate slabbing and grading and then simple sale through a major auction house.

I suppose that Topps may have had a concern that 400 cases disposed of in a much more cost-effective way, such as landfill, could have resulted in a lot of packs being pilfered by waste workers or others along the way. But, why would Berger have worried about that, since cards as collectibles were hardly a booming market at that time. Even so, having the disposal supervised by a company with a large incinerator also seems like a much cheaper - if less dramatic - method than hiring a barge to haul them out to sea. Is there some other consideration that is not so apparent?

[steve B]

NYC had a few trash barge companies, going back almost to the beginning.

I believe the barge companies were.... how to put it.... independent of the "influences" in the rest of the NYC trash hauling industry.

Going with a regular trash hauler probably guaranteed that at least some portion of the batch didn't get burned or landfilled. But taking it directly to the barge themselves gave them more control.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by steve B

NYC had a few trash barge companies, going back almost to the beginning.

I believe the barge companies were.... how to put it.... independent of the "influences" in the rest of the NYC trash hauling industry.

Going with a regular trash hauler probably guaranteed that at least some portion of the batch didn't get burned or landfilled. But taking it directly to the barge themselves gave them more control.

Right, Steve - that's one part of the puzzle, I guess, but the thing that seems inscrutable to me is why would Berger, or anyone else at Topps, be worried about such "insecurity" with their trash in 1960? Eight-year-old cards would have been considered practically worthless, wouldn't they? If someone, or anyone, wanted them, why not just give them away?

[ALR-bishop]

I know Berger said they did it, but that does not mean it happened. Personally I agree with Dave, but do not care if I am wrong. Neat hobby lore either way.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I know Berger said they did it, but that does not mean it happened. Personally I agree with Dave, but do not care if I am wrong. Neat hobby lore either way.

+1

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Volod

Right, Steve - that's one part of the puzzle, I guess, but the thing that seems inscrutable to me is why would Berger, or anyone else at Topps, be worried about such "insecurity" with their trash in 1960? Eight-year-old cards would have been considered practically worthless, wouldn't they? If someone, or anyone, wanted them, why not just give them away?

That's hard to say.
I suppose it could affect the local sales if stores were "encouraged" to stock 8 year old cards. And that might reflect poorly on the company.

It's pretty common today for companies to secure even old stocks that are destined for the trash.
The makerspace I'm a member of got a bunch of hardware etc donated from a local branch of a big company when it closed. They had a very good but old machine shop for repairing their equipment. I asked about the machines, not necessarily as donations, but if they could be bought if not donated.
Nope. They were afraid of liability.. If I bought the building I suppose, but the assumption was that it would get bulldozed into a hole or hauled away with the rest of the building if/when it got torn down.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's hard to say.
I suppose it could affect the local sales if stores were "encouraged" to stock 8 year old cards. And that might reflect poorly on the company.

It's pretty common today for companies to secure even old stocks that are destined for the trash.
The makerspace I'm a member of got a bunch of hardware etc donated from a local branch of a big company when it closed. They had a very good but old machine shop for repairing their equipment. I asked about the machines, not necessarily as donations, but if they could be bought if not donated.
Nope. They were afraid of liability.. If I bought the building I suppose, but the assumption was that it would get bulldozed into a hole or hauled away with the rest of the building if/when it got torn down.

Yeah, interesting analogy. But, what I meant in regard to "trash security" is, if Topps viewed the overstock as just something to dispose of (not through their normal wholesaling or retailing channels), why not use the cheapest means available? I can't imagine any liability concern with old cardstock viz dumping or incinerating versus hauling out to sea. What actually seems fishy to me (no pun) about the anecdotal account is that Berger was interviewed in the 1980's, around the time that vintage cards were exploding in value - especially the '52 Topps Mantle - and that hobby atmosphere may have "clouded" his memory about things that were done thirty years before.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Volod

Yeah, interesting analogy. But, what I meant in regard to "trash security" is, if Topps viewed the overstock as just something to dispose of (not through their normal wholesaling or retailing channels), why not use the cheapest means available? I can't imagine any liability concern with old cardstock viz dumping or incinerating versus hauling out to sea. What actually seems fishy to me (no pun) about the anecdotal account is that Berger was interviewed in the 1980's, around the time that vintage cards were exploding in value - especially the '52 Topps Mantle - and that hobby atmosphere may have "clouded" his memory about things that were done thirty years before.

I think if it did happen, it was probably just to keep someone from taking that many cases and selling them to shops either very cheaply, or as part of some sort of scheme.

Considering how much stuff got left in the back corners of warehouses back then it doesn't make tons of sense.

[jchcollins]

You have to admit the Berger story is a bit of a fairy tale. It would be nice if someone else that was there could corroborate it, but of course there never was.

[maniac_73]

I worked for a publisher and all overstock books are returned to manufacturer and destroyed. Noone wants old stock hanging around because it devalues the brand.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by steve B

I think if it did happen, it was probably just to keep someone from taking that many cases and selling them to shops either very cheaply, or as part of some sort of scheme.

Considering how much stuff got left in the back corners of warehouses back then it doesn't make tons of sense.

I agree.