T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?

[Archive]

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Wow, this thread is a testament of this bull board. Great information and opinons shared. I'm not a big T206 collector but I sure appreciate the information being shared.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted, Scot, Barry, Dan, etc,
this thread is far from over. I have been in CA for the last week, but should be able to add some interesting info by early next week on EPDG and Old Mill's.
Have a nice Father's Day, World Cup, Us Open, NBA Final, College World Series, weekend. Be well Brian



PS Yes, Barry I am a HUGE Tarheel fan. My Mom was a cheerleader there in the 60's and my sister and I both went to school there. Davidson is a great school, but a little to tough for me, you must be pretty sharp.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BRIAN W.

Welcome back to the "hunt"....your inputs are valuable and very appreciated.

Thanks, and a Happy Father's Day to you.

Ted Z

[Archive]

Posted By: E. Angyal

I just got done reviewing all the backs in my collection, and am in the process of writing them to an Excel spreadsheet for ease of sorting. It takes time to do thorough research.

Eric

[Archive]

Posted By: E. Angyal

I can confirm a third example of the "rarer" Lundgren Chicago wit a Piedmont 350 series front/back combo. Also, my:

Lindeman = Hindu
EPDG = Bender (trees) & Gibson - I only have 2

I will do some sorting to add to some of the other threads.

Eric

[Archive]

Posted By: ramram

Over 200 posts in this thread and nobody's barking at anybody. Outstanding!

Carry on.


Rob M.

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Great to see this topic rejuvenated!!!
We're on again, TRex!

Glad to hear you're back around Brian and ready to RESEARCH.
Thanks for the kind words about Davidson---i think i may have
been sharp years ago.

now, as Ted says, onward to the HUNT.

all the best,

Barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BRIAN W.

We T206 "nuts" are awaiting your valuable inputs.

To date.......there have been NO confirmed "350" backs for Ames (front),
Dahlen (Boston), and Lindaman.

Check-out your T206 cards guys.....this "ride" is still rolling.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Hi Ted,

I said I wouldn't post here again, but your last post made me change my mind! You mentioned Ames (Hands at Chest), Dahlen (Boston) and Lindaman as not having been seen with a 350 back. I have seen a PSA graded copy of Dahlen (Boston) with a Piedmont 350 back. It was owned by Bill Latzko and he offered it to me off-eBay before he auctioned it on eBay last year. I think Dahlen (Boston) is an example of a subject that exists with Piedmont 350 but no other 350 back.

I am curious why you did not mention Doyle (Throwing), Ewing or Jones (St. Louis) in your last post. In addition to Ames (Hands at Chest) and Lindaman, I don't believe anyone has confirmed Doyle (Throwing), Ewing or Jones (St. Louis) with any 350 back on this thread. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Scot

Thanks for the Dahlen (Boston) Piedmont 350 input.

Your observation is correct on Doyle, Ewing & Jones. There are NO confirmed "350"
backs on these 3 as of today. I hesitated to note this on Ewing and Jones since
a "reader" of this Forum had emailed me that he had them. But, as of now, they
have not been confirmed. Also, I have been calling fellow collectors that have near
complete sets and sampling their T206's. And, so far there are no surprises; as
all of them are the expected 150 Series backs.

One more item......I am very surprised that there is one "350" input (and an SC
at that) on Durham. He was 35 years old when the T206's were first issued, his
very brief Major Lge career had ended; and, there was really no reason for Durham
to have been extended into the 350 Series. Do you have any thoughts on this ?

Also, it's been my experience in putting together 3 sets, that Durham has always
been extremely tough for me to find.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,
Durham is a toughie for sure. My ebay survey data show 1 Piedmont 350 out of 26 total transactions. The other 25 transactions were Piedmont, Sovereign and Sweet Caporal 150.
Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I'm still waiting on a few cards to arrive before I post. I don't have anything "earth shattering" to report, but I do think my information may shed a little light on the timing of EPDG versus Old Mill. Talk to you when everything comes in. Be well Brian


PS Scot and Ted, I agree with you about Durham.......

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster
really appreciate all this data from at least 70 Forum posters and six Forum
"readers" who have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in
the process.

After sampling a total of 400+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the
possibility of additional cards that could have appeared in the 150-only Series
(besides the known 10) to the following 8 cards......

PLAYER.................350........HINDU.......EPDG ........150

Ames (Hds/chest).....0............2..............0.......... ...29

Doyle (throw)...........0............3..............0... ..........26

Ewing.....................0.............2......... .....3.............24

Jones (St Louis).......0.............5..............2....... ......27

Lindaman................0.............8........... ...5.............29

Jordan (port)...........0.............0..............0... ............1

Spencer..................0.............0.......... ....0...............1

Schulte (Cubs)........ ? ............4..............0..............28

This in no way is meant to be a conclusive study at this point, as more data is
needed to further confirm these particular 8 cards.

Edited....to add Jordan, Spencer & Schulte (suggested 150-only by Bill Heitman).

[Archive]

Posted By: William Heitman

I've got to tell all of you that this thread has really provided me with a walk down memory lane. At the time The Monster was published. I was but one of three collectors(the other two were late comers to this obsession) I knew who had actually collected T206 all of the ways it could be--which meant you were a back collector. I published the book in an attempt to make more "back" collectors, and it is gratifying to me to see how many of them are out there now.
1. The thread started as a look at the scarcity of EPDG backs. My list shows 201 different EPDG backs, including many from the Eastern League and American Association. That's slightly less than 5% of my list. But that's not the complete story. As I was accumulating T206, I would never trade or sell one that I did not already have. And I traded and sold thousands upon thousands of dupes and EPDG were nowhere close to 1/10 of 1 percent of these dupes.
2. Now to the 150 only cards. A lot has been learned since The Monster. Of the original 9 that were pretty well established as 150 only and shown that way in the Monster, I have not had any of the nine with other than Piedmont, Sovereign and SweetCap 150's and Hindu. I have six of the nine with Hindu backs. Of the five in Ted's most recent post. it's the same situation. The reporting of EPDG backs on these, I believe, raises the potential of a 350 back. What I believe is that Hindu was there at the beginning and EPDG came along just before, or at the time, the backs were changed to 350's. Beyond the original nine and Ted's five, there are four more that I have never had a 350 back for: Spencer, Bost AL, Chase-throwing white cap, Jordan-PO and Schulte-batting front. I do have EDPG on the Chase. Again, I believe that a 350 back is probable for any that came out in EPDG. That would mean that I cannot confirm, but strongly suspect. So it appears that the 150 only should include the original nine, two from Ted's posting and three I mentioned in this post.
I'm sure we haven't heard the last word on this.

[Archive]

Posted By: Lee Behrens

The Chase, Pied and Jordan SC 30 I have are 150 series that I have. The Spense is a EPDG.

Lee

[Archive]

Posted By: Martin Neal

My Chase (white hat) and Jordan (portrait) are sweet caporal 150s. The Spencer is a Piedmont 150.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Bill Heitman

We really appreciate your expertise on these T206 "mysteries". Your insight
gives us more confidence in what we are trying to understand here. Many may
say this is all an academic "folly"....but, to a lot of us who strive to know as
much as we can about the T206 set.....it is a joy.

Now, you are suggesting 4 more possible "150-only" cards to the "mix"......
Chase (White Cap)....Jordan (portrait)....Schulte (Cubs)....Spencer (Bost).

I have 4 cards of Chase (Wh Cap)....P150, P150, SC150 and P350. So, right off
the bat, we can rule him out.

I have always thought Schulte (Cubs) to be a potential 150-only card; and, we
had him listed in our tabulation. However, there has been one (and only one)
reported P350 of this card. This report has not been made directly to me, but
I do know the owner of this card and I will contact him to confirm. I have had
at least 20 Schulte cards (as I keep upgrading) over the years and they are
for the most part (85%) P150 and the rest SC150. I have never seen a Sov150,
much less a "350" of any type....have you Bill ?

1st....I would appreciate your opinion of my "Piedmont primacy" theory (as Barry
Arnold coined it); where if any of these potential 150-only cards have a "350"
back....it will ONLY be a P350 and will have been "short-printed" ?

2nd....I am adding Jordan amd Spencer to the survey and restoring Schulte to it.

Thanx much.....T-Rex Ted

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Lee B

I do not understand your "back" inputs on these two cards....please clarify ?

Ted Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Lee Behrens

Chase Pied 150
Spenser EPDG
Jordan SC150 30
Schulte Pied 150

Hope this clear's it up

Lee

[Archive]

Posted By: Bill

Both my Jordan Portrait and Spencer mess up the pattern. Jordan is SC 350 Fac. 30 and Spencer is Piedmont 350. Bill

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster
really appreciate all this data from at least 70 Forum posters and six Forum
"readers" who have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in
the process.

After sampling a total of 400+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the
possibility of additional cards that could have appeared in the 150-only Series
(besides the known 10) to the following 8 cards......

PLAYER.................350........HINDU.......EPDG ........150

Ames (Hds/chest).....0............2..............0.......... ...29

Doyle (throw)...........0............3..............0... ..........26

Ewing.....................0.............2......... .....3.............24

Jones (St Louis).......0.............5..............2....... ......27

Lindaman................0.............8........... ...5.............31

Jordan (port)...........1.............0..............0... ............4

Spencer..................1.............0.......... ....1...............4

Schulte (Cubs)........ ? ............4..............0..............30

This in no way is meant to be a conclusive study at this point, as more data is
needed to further confirm these particular 8 cards.

NOTE....Although, Jordan and Spencer have been already ruled out, it would be
informative to see which Tobacco brand 350 backs they occur with.

[Archive]

Posted By: Drew

Schulte(Cubs) Piedmont 150(2)
Jordan (Por) Piedmont 150 (2)
Spencer Piedmont 150


Drew

[Archive]

Posted By: ethicsprof

Bill Heitman,

many thanks for your comments on the EPDG 'scarcity'.
as you saw, most every contributor fell into the 1% EPDG
category out of their total T206 holdings. I agree with
you that one tenth of one percent falls well outside the range of typicality. It does seem fair to say that EPDG
did turn out to be more scarce than many of us thought.
Scarce does not mean rare,however.

Perhaps most importantly at this juncture is the issue regarding the Primacy of Piedmont which Ted Z. has offered
up as a possible way of envisioning the early formation of
the T206's---the notion that any of the potential 150-only
have a 350 back which is only the PIEDMONT 350 back that was
short-printed. I,too, am eager to hear your response as well as others.

Your comment about going down memory lane is most elucidative. Sharing the joy of research and discovery is the heart and soul of collecting the 206's. Your work on
The Monster, as well as Reader's recent work, along with other works in the field, have certainly contributed much to the vitality of this discussion. Again, many thanks.

Barry

p.s. Trex, i slipped away from the univ. and quickly found
my spencer is an SC 150 and my chase white cap is a pied 150---not much help yet, but i'll keep researching!

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I also have a Jordan Portrait 350, and yes, it is a Piedmont. Both of my Spencer's are Hindu's. I will try to post more tonight. Be well Brian


PS Barry, sneaking away from the Univ isn't very ethical, but it's Ok because your a Tarheel fan.

[Archive]

Posted By: ethicsprof

You caught me Brian!
I am still at home but will run out the door right now to alleviate
the guilt!!
Being a Chapel Hill fan worked for about an extra hour off,
though.
great to see you back in the thick of things.

best,

barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Art M.

Adding T206 back information from my cards for the survey:

Jordan (port) SC150, P150
Spencer P150, P150, P150
Schulte (Cubs) SC150, SC150, P150

Great information.
Art

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Rivera

my back info for

Jordan portrait-SC 150/25 and Sovereign 150
Spencer-SC 150/649
Schulte-P 150 and SC 150/30

[Archive]

Posted By: William Heitmanec

For years before I created the theoretical checklist that was the basis for The Monster, I had been accumulating T206 by backs and series, etc. But because I was the first, I believe, to do it that way, there had never been a checklist, in my view, that "covered all the bases." And I believe that I was probably the only person who had enough T206 to do the job. So I laid out a checklist ala the Monster's, but I didn't have any cards blacked out. Incidentally I laid the brands out alphabetically, which, of course, lead to the weird coincidence in the 350 series brands. I checked off all the cards I had (I had always kept any "new" card I found). And, believe me, I couldn't always remember what varieties I had when I went to a show or did a buy or went on a buying trip. So I checked them all off and noticed that certain patterns had emerged. I sent a copy of the checklist to Larry Fritsch as I knew he had quite a few T206 laying around and asked him to go through his and checklist them for me, which he did just a while later. He said he had gone over every T206 he had and he had no additions (no mention of Doyle, N.Y. National--this was 1979). Every card that Larry checklisted fell into the patterns I had noted. That's when I started x'ing cards out. A little later, Lew Lipset, who had just become a "back" collector went over my checklist with the same results. So then I started doing research on the players to try to understand how these patterns emerged. Demmitt, St.L. Am. and O'Hara, St.L. Nat--how weird, I thought. Only with Polar Bear backs--that made no sense. What I came up with was that the 150's started in 1909. But to give you an example of how dark the ages were back then--virtually every pioneer in the hobby had called T206 a 1910 issue. I believe the 350 series started later in 1909 and continued through most of 1910, but then late in the year the 460's came along.
The primacy of Piedmont. Interesting. You have to remember that all of these companies were run by the American Tobacco Trust. It is pretty clear that Piedmont, Sweet Cap and Sovereign were the Trust's darling brands. Of those three, I suspect Piedmont was the lead brand. Because there were many, many press runs that were done in those two years, it makes sense that the "darling" brands would get the cards first. And, again, it's obvious that those would be the most common backs found. But there are just no records that were kept to show us any of this. And, believe me, before there was an internet, research was tedious, laborious--most didn't do much. And there weren't too many places to go to find information.
When Denny Eckes expressed an interest in publishing a book I had copyrighted called T206 The Monster, I jumped at the chance. What better way to ignite some interest in the backs? Denny asked me to send him examples of all of the variations, all of the different backs and all of the Hall of Famers--he had a good picture of Plank so he didn't need that one. So, yes I boxed up all of the variations, all the backs and Hofers and rare cards and sent them (can you imagine) the 2500 or so miles to Denny so he could take the pictures. And, yes, I got them back when he was done. So Denny did a press run of 5000 copies, sent me 100 so I could take them with me to shows, and he was in charge of selling them. Shortly before his death several boxes showed up at my office. In them were about 2200 copies of The Monster and note from Denny in which he explained that sales had now covered his expenses so he was sending me half of what was left over, hoping I would accept that as a deal done and completed. I called him and thanked him. Neither I, nor this hobby, ever had a better friend than Denny Eckes. But Denny added the cards of Farrah without my knowledge or approval. For years, I gave updates through my Trader Speaks articles of errors that had been made when Denny had to convert my typewritten checklist to the ultimate format for The Monster. If there is interest, I will post all of those errors, in this thread tomorrow. By the way, I once did the addition and found that there were just short of 7000 different T206 and, even though that number has changed, I managed to confirm just under 5000. Getting late.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

That is great stuff, I for one cannot get enough of this type of information on
the T206 set.....it just fascinates me. When I started collecting my 1st set,
in the early '80s, I was just content to acquire the 521 cards (Magie was a
reasonably priced card back then). I was not interested in the backs, I had
more important priorities....family, job, etc. In recent years, being retired,
my incessant curiousity regarding this set, has motivated me to concentrate
on the various backs.

I have completed my subset of the different backs, except Broad Leaf 460 (and
I am in the "school" that doesn't think the Ty Cobb back is a T206 issue......
the front isn't the same and it has a unique "Factory 33" on the back).

I'm happy that you seem to support my theory regarding the Piedmont brand being
favored by the T206 designers. I have recently reduced my 2nd T206 set to only
Piedmont backs and have embarked on a 518-card "all Piedmont" set. I realize it
would really be 522....but, I just can't afford Joe Doyle, Magie, Wagner, and the
one (or two) Plank's that exist with Piedmont backs.

So, at this point in time I have completed the 153 cards in the "150 Series".
I have 42 of the 48 So. Lgers and all the 48 cards of the "460-only" Series.
And, I have 177 of the "350 Series"; so, I need less than 100 to achieve this
all-Piedmont set.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike (18colt)

Just to add to the tally . . .

Jordan portrait -- I, too, have the Piedmont 350 (fact 25)
Spencer -- SC 150
Chase white cap -- Pied 150

Mike (18colt)

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Updated 6/24/06

Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster
really appreciate all this data from at least 70 Forum posters and six Forum
"readers" who have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in
the process.

After sampling a total of 400+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the
possibility of additional cards that could have appeared in the 150-only Series
(besides the known 10) to the following 8 cards......

PLAYER.................350........HINDU.......EPDG ........150

Ames (Hds/chest).....0............2..............0.......... ...30

Doyle (throw)...........0............3..............0... ..........26

Ewing.....................0.............2......... .....3.............24

Jones (St Louis).......0.............5..............2....... ......27

Lindaman................0.............8........... ...5.............31

Jordan (port)...........3.............0..............0... ...........10

Spencer..................1.............2.......... ....1..............12

Schulte (Cubs)........ ? ............4..............0..............37

This in no way is meant to be a conclusive study at this point, as more data is
needed to further confirm these particular 8 cards.

NOTE....Although, Jordan and Spencer have been already ruled out, it would be
informative to see which Tobacco brand 350 backs they occur with ?

Note 2....I will be away till Monday.....let's continue the inputs to this Thread.

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Bill Heitman,

With Ted Z. i must underscore my thanks for your most illuminative descriptions of those early days when you
did such pre-internet, tedious, laborious work as you set the stage for this great hobby we all love. Hearing you
relive the various steps along the way is absolutely fascinating! It is particularly interesting to me when you
refer to the time as the dark ages--as i think of the dark
ages of the post-Roman period-- and am grateful that you and
others took on the responsility of taking hold of the remnants of what could have been lost of the 'culture of the
t206's' and created the tome that would solidify the legacy of The Monster. THANK YOU.
With respect to Ted Z.'s theory of the Primacy of Piedmont, your comment regarding the darling brands getting the cards first and your suspecting that Piedmont was the lead brand is helpful and corroborative---even though the primary sources are long gone (fortunately, you are the primary of the secondary sources! )
We look forward to your posting of the errors list which you produced upon the conversion of the typewritten checklist to the ultimate format for The Monster. The more
research the better for what has turned out to be a most
elucidative RESEARCH THREAD.

all the best

Barry

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

Okay, so I finally finished cataloging all of my backs. For argument's sake, I have listed my backs followed by all of the different T206 backs in order of scarcity according to the T206museum.com website. I have indicated how many of each back I have acquired in putting the set together. The hindu, tolstoi and cycle backed cards were intentional pick ups that had at least something to do with the backs. And I dumped a few American Beauty backs once upon a time. But otherwise, this should be a pretty normal distribution for someone who put a complete set together over the last 8 or 9 years without paying a premium for (or much attention to) the backs. If either the series or factory were illegible, they are not included below.

Here are my findings:

Tolstoi No 30 2d Dist NY 1
Sov 460 No 25 2d Dist Va 1
Hindu No 649 1st Dist NY 1
Cycle 350 No 25 2d Dist Va 1
AB 350 No 25 2d Dist Va 1
SC 460 No 42 4th Dist NC 2
SC 150 No 649 1st Dist NY (OP) 2
OM No 25 2d Dist Va 3
EPDG No 17 2d Dist Va 3
Sov 150 No 25 2d Dist Va 5
SC 460 No 42 4th Dist NC (OP) 7
SC 460 No 30 2d Dist NY 9
Sov 350 No 25 2d Dist Va 13
SC 350 No 25 2d Dist Va 16
OM SL No 25 2d Dist Va 16
SC 150 No 25 2d Dist Va 19
PB No 6 1st Dist O 31
P 460 No 25 2d Dist Va 32
SC 150 No 30 2d Dist NY 35
P 150 No 25 2d Dist Va 60
SC 350 No 30 2d Dist NY 70
P 350 No 25 2d Dist Va185

So, first thing I noticed is that the top 14 backs listed in order of scarcity by T206museum (and reprinted for your convenience below) are, indeed, scarce (or at least much more costly, as an indicator of scarcity). I have not picked up any of them:

1. Old Mill (Southern League - Double Overprints) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
2. Old Mill (Southern League - Overprint) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
3. Ty Cobb - Factory 33 - District 4 - State NC
4. Old Mill (Brown) - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
5. Broad Leaf - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
6. Lenox (Brown) - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
7. Drum - Series 350- Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
8. Uzit - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
9. Hindu (Red) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
10. Piedmont - Series 350-460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC
11. Blank Back
12. Lenox (Black) - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
13. Broad Leaf - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
14. Carolina Brights - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA

However, the T206museum scarcity distribution for the remainder of the backs does not always parallel my experience (my count is reprinted in brackets to the right of each back):

15. Hindu (Brown) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY [1]
16. American Beauty - Series 460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC [0]
17. Cycle - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [0]
18. Tolstoi - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY [1]
19. El Principe De Gales - Factory 17 - District 2 - State VA [3]
20. Sovereign - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [1]
21. American Beauty (no Frame) - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [1]
22. American Beauty (with Frame) - Series 350- Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [0]
23. Cycle - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [1]
24. Old Mill (Southern League) - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [16]
25. Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [0]
26. Old Mill (Black) - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [3]
27. Sovereign - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [15]
28. Sweet Caporal (Overprint) - Series 150 - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY [2]
29. Sweet Caporal (Overprint) - Series 350-460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC [7]
30. Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC [2]
31. Sovereign - Series 150 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [5]
32. Polar Bear - Factory 6 - District 1 - State OH [31]
33. Sweet Caporal - Series 150 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [19]
34. Sweet Caporal - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [16]
35. Piedmont - Series 150 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [60]
36. Sweet Caporal - Series 150 - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY [35]
37. Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY [9]
38. Piedmont - Series 350-460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [32]
39. Sweet Caporal - Series 350 - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY [70]
40. Piedmont - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [185]


A few observations/questions for the experts:

- I don't have a single SC 460 (25 Dist 2 Va) card - is that strange?
- Old Mill Southern Leaguers are not particularly tough if you are willing to pay a little more just to pick up Southern Leaguers in the first place.
- I had two each SC 460 (No 42 4th Dist NC) and SC 150 (No 649 1st Dist NY (OP)), while I had three EPDG. I also had 3 OM (No 25 2d Dist Va) cards. Thus, EPDG's relative scarcity is not particularly significant in my collection.
- Contrary to T206museum, I believe Sovereigh 150's (of which I had 5) and are a bit tougher than Sovereign 350's (of which I had 15).
- Really only three backs are meaningfully more common than Polar Bears: SC 350 (30 Dist 2 NY) and P 150 and 350 (25 District 2 VA).

Are there any other interesting points I'm missing?

[Archive]

Posted By: robert a

Paul,

Sweet Cap. 460 Fact. 25 are far more uncommon than say EPDG or even Hindu, but the back hasn't received a lot of credit from collectors cuz' it's not quite as interesting as other distinct backs.

I started a thread on it here some time ago and many collectors had only one or two out of 400 or more.

Robert

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I was going to post some cool pics and some interesting research, but since your away until Monday, I'm going to wait. Have a good weekend Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

I have a few hundred, it depends on wht the guy smoked who's hoard you find. This is a common back and always has been since the late 1960s. Many reside in old time collections that you gents do not know about. Take care.

[Archive]

Posted By: William Heitman

This is my second try--my first didn't take. I wanted to answer Ted's question regarding the Schulte card. I can confirm all five of the 150 backs, including Sovereign, and a Hindu back.
Here are the errors in the Monster that were all made in the transfer from my list to the book's list: (1) Nos. 20 and 21 should have the 350-460 series blacked out; (2) Nos. 36 and 150 should not have the series 350, Piedmont through Sweet Cap, blacked out; (3) No. 37 should have the entire 350 series blacked out; (4) No. 42 should have the Ty Cobb back blacked out; (5) Nos. 91 and 119 should have the 350 series, American Beauty through Drum, blacked out; (6) No. 141 should not have the series 350-460 blacked out; (7) The entire Texas League should have the Hindu back blacked out; and (8) After No. 509 Smith, Shreveport, there should be a team listing for Waco and No. 510 Thebo then shows as being on Waco. There might be more.
On Sweet Cap backs, in the 150 Series, I found #30 to be the most plentiful, followed closely by #25 with #649 being by far the least common; in the 350 Series, again, I found #30 to be more plentiful than #25; and, in the 350-460 Series, I found the overprint to be the most plentiful followed by #'s 25 and 30, both just about as plentiful as the other, and factory 42 to be the least plentiful. In all three series types, I found Piedmont to be more plentiful than any one of the Sweet Cap backs. In all three I found Sovereign to be just a little less plentiful than the two most plentiful Sweet Caps.
I've often been asked what started me collecting T206 in what was once considered my insane way. Well, I'm my family's third generation of card collectors. My grandfather began as a young boy in the 1880's and he got my father started as a young boy. My father collected regularly from that time until his death some 70 years later. After my birth, my father decided that he now had to collect two of everything because he then had two sons. When I was very young, he showed me these little white bordered cards that he was working on. I was rather disappointed that they didn't say anything about the players on the rear of the cards as the gold bordered and brown bordered cards did, but something drew me to the American Beauty, Broadleaf, Carolina Brights and Polar Bear backed cards and the rest, so to speak, is history.
I am just thrilled that all of you guys are trying to contribute to the solution of some of the many mysteries of The Monster T206.

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Bill Heitman,

many,many thanks for the listing of errors to the Monster,the response to Ted's research
query, and the reflections on the your early days and the early days of t206
collecting. It is all so fascinating to those of us enamored of that captivating Monster.
do take a moment to help with Ted's new thread on Piedmont Primacy when you get a chance. As one who 'tamed' the Monster, your comments are always most
helpful.

best

barry


p.s. where are the pics Brian W.?!!!
we're eager.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Barry,
I will try to post the pic tonight after the kids go down. My wife had a minor surgery today, so I'm "Mr. Mom" at the moment. I would appreciate everyone posting there CLAUDE RITCHEY T206'S FRONT AND BACK as soon as possible. This will help my post.....


PS No, Ritchey is not a 150 only card, but the unique change of the printing of this card will help us date EPDG and Old Mill.

150 PIC




350 PIC

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Thanks for the note, Brian.
I do hope your wife gets well quickly.
We're eager to see what you have whenever you're able to
find the time---but no rush. Mr. Mom is a tough,tough job.
Sorry but i don't have a Ritchey---but i'm sure loads
of other folks will come through.

best,

barry

[Archive]

Posted By: RayB

RayB

[Archive]

Posted By: J Hull

& here's a P350.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BRIAN W

I only have two Ritchey cards and they both are P150.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BRIAN W

Claude Ritchey is another one of those T206 players whose career ended as the
1st Series of T206 cards were being issued. He played in only 30 games in 1909
and that was it for his 13 year Major Lge. career.

Is your "350" card a Piedmont....as is J Hull's Ritchey..?

And, your 350 card has a very interesting "blue sky effect". It looks like a large
white dove in flight. I have never seen that before.

T-Rex Ted

[Archive]

Posted By: Lee Behrens

My Ritchey is a Piedmont 350 with the dove in the sky. will post a scan when i get one.

Lee

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I have been collecting and observing Ritchey cards for about 5 years now, and have come to the conclusion that 99% of the 150 cards show no dove in the clouds, and the few that do look more like faint clouds than a dove. The 350's on the other hand, contain the extra blue and the extra clouds and "dove" 99% of the time. I believe this change was made by design and may help with the timeline of product distribution.
To date all of the Ritchey's with EPDG back look the same as the 150 cards:



While all of the Old Mill's look like 350 cards: Except Piedmont




I'll try to post a few more scans and some raw data on the number of cards sometime after dinner. Heading to a meeting Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: J Hull

Nice observation, Brian. (keep them coming)
Beyond the interesting issues of timing and sequence, it raises the question of how/why the "dove" is visible. I don't know an awful lot about printing techniques, but one thing that I notice looking at the scans is that it seems like there's a layer of dark blue ink on the "dove" card that isn't there on the "normal" version. On the P350 I listed, the registration's slightly off left to right, and the ink color used for the sky is clearly sky blue (seen up and down the overlapped left edge). The sky blue over yellow creates the green "grass" in the background.
Your "dove" card's registration is off enough top to bottom and left to right to show a separate layer of dark blue over the sky blue base layer. It's also particularly and obviously visible on Ritchey's elbow.
That dark blue ink definitely strikes me as change in the production/printing process and not as any kind of freak printing occurrence.

Jamie

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BRIAN W.

This is great stuff.....I just love it. Now, how do we get Forum members to
show their Ritchey cards ?

Brian.....I'm afraid we have reached "Forum Fatigue" on this Thread. I've received
two emails that leads me to say this. While two emails do not represent the 70+
majority of members (unique responses), I didn't appreciate their tone.

Anyhow.....Let's see what developes.....Onward Ho !

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

...for best thread ever. Easily the one I have found most interesting from the get-go.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
It's "Date night", so I won't be in until later, but maybe you should start a new thread, "show me your Ritchey" and we'll go from there. I may have to send you some scans to post, because I'm running out of room. Talk to you tonight Brian


PS Good news, bad news. I picked up a Jones 350 today(Piedmont of course), so he's another possible 150 that bites the dust.