T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?

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Posted By: Art M.

Ted,
Your latest recap shows a T206 Schaefer, Detroit with Hindu.
Where did this come from? I would be interested in this card for my Detroit collection!
Art

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Posted By: James Feagin

[IMG][/IMG]

I bought this today at a card show for $45. I have NO idea about rarity or value since I've never bought one before. The dude that sold it to me said he didn't know anything about these boxes, but said it came as part of a t206 collection he bought awhile back. The flip-lid is still there, but the binding is loosely attached. Did I get a good deal?

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Posted By: drew

Anybody have/seen a T206 Schaefer, Detroit with ANY Sweet Cap 350 back? Probably not.

No but i have a Piedmont 350 back of Schaefer Det.



Drew

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Posted By: Jim Rivera

Drew

Can you post scans of the front and back?

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Posted By: Tom Botticelli

Hi Ted,

My cards are:

Ames (Front) P150
Doyle (Fielding) P150
Ewing SC150
Jones Hindu P150
Lindaman Hindu P150
Lundren (Cubs) P150
Schulte (Cubs) P150

ELPD:

Abbott
Blackburne
Brain
Brown (Cubs)
Bresnahan
Cravath
Donlin
Groom
Jennings
Kruger
Leifield
McCormick
Rudolph
Spencer
Young (Bare hand)

Thanks,

Tom

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Posted By: drew

Jim
Email sent


Drew

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Art M

Sorry, but I am going to disappoint you.

I went back and checked my notes and I mis-read my handwriting.In my notes I
had "scratched" down Schulte/HINDU and when I was ready to input the new data
it looked like Schaefer (instead of Schulte). It has been corrected on the Table.

T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: James Feagin

Not to be a pest, but does anyone have any info on my box? Is this the actual box that t206's could've gone in? Does anyone know an approximate value?

James

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Posted By: barry arnold

hi tom b.

i note your 15 epdg and am wondering how that fits into your total of t206's.
since i know already you are one of the princes of back collecting, i bet that your percentage of epdg's will be quite a bit higher than the rest of the crowd.
thanks for the help.

and thanks again for the AB and BL I purchased from you yesterday!

best,

barry
P.s.

tom, i knew that you had said something about your total before on this
thread---and i found it (entry 16).
total of about 500.
i was right that you have more epdg's than most (percentage-wise).
thanks for the help.

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Posted By: Art M.

James,
Yes, that is the correct EPDG box type that once held T206 cards. Does this have the factory 17 stamp on the bottom?
The $45 buying price seems like a pretty good deal. Congrats.

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Posted By: James Feagin

Unfortunately, it looks like the tax stamp has been removed. I see the residue of one.....

James

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

TOM B

Thanks for listing your info. and it will tabulated along with newly
received data via emails to me by "readers" of our Forum.

I do not refer to people who monitor this Forum ( but for whatever
reasons, choose not to post)......as "lurkers". This term connotes
someone who is "furtive", or "up to no good". I have met quite a few
"readers" of this Forum at the Philly Show; and believe me, they are
very interesting collectors who really enjoy this Forum.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Updated Tabulation

As of 4 PM.....6/11/06

PLAYER................150.....350.....EPDG.....HIN DU

Ames (hds chest)....23........0.........0..........2

Doyle (fldg)............22........0.........0..........3

Ewing....................20........0.........3.... ......2

Jones (St Louis)......22........0.........2..........4

Lindaman...............24........0.........5...... ....6

Lundgren (Cubs)......24........2.........4..........1

Schulte (Cubs)........25........0.........0..........4

Schaefer (Det).........7.........3.........1..........0

Mullin (horiz)............6..,......2.........1.......... 0

Totals..................173.........7.......16.... .....22


Edited to include 3 reported Schaefer cards with PIEDMONT 350 backs.

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Posted By: William Heitman

Schaefer, Detroit--Piedmont 150, Sovereign 150, Sweet Cap 25 & 30 150, Piedmont 350 and EPDG.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,
I have seen Schaefer (Detroit) and Mullin (Throwing) in 350 in multiple instances. They are definitely not 150-only.
Scot

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Scot and Bill,
I don't think Art was suggesting that Mullin Hor was a 150 only card, but was asking if anyone had seen a Sweet Cap 350. I have a Piedmont 350, and have seen several , but 0 Sweet Cap 350's. Be well Brian

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Scot and Brian

I fully understood Art M's initial question and I wanted to prove (to at least
myself) a pattern that I noticed was emerging. And, that is why I deliberately
added Mullin and Schaefer to round out this survey (even though I was aware of
them being also 350 cards, since I read it in Scot Reader's book). And, sure
enough the pattern that I am alluding to, is that an occasional "350" back will
surface. But, it isn't just any 350 back, but exclusively a PIEDMONT 350 back.

Lundgren and Schaefer have proven this and we could continue this survey to
infinity and I predict that no other "350-type" back (Sw Cap, Sov, etc.) will
be discovered. My theory is that PIEDMONT was always the 1st issued brand.
And when the T206 designers transitioned into the 350 Series (circa 1910),
they quickly realized Lundgren was no longer in the Major Lgs. and Schaefer had
been traded to Washington; therefore, they stopped printing them and only a few
PIEDMONT 350's got into circulation. This is exactly the same "scenerio" that occurred
with the Magie card at the start of the 150-Series (Magie exists only as a P150).

Now, regarding the other 6 cards (Ames, Doyle, Ewing, Jones, Lindaman, & Schulte),
can we extrapolate that they too will eventually surface with PIEDMONT 350 backs
in this survey......I am not too certain about that happening. We have quite a
formidable T206 resource to draw from in this Forum and I would have thought
more 350 backs would be evident by now ? ?

All you T206 guys, let's see your inputs.....we are still far away from "infinity".

T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: barry arnold

trex,

this PRIMACY OF PIEDMONT theorizing is absolutely fascinating.
seeing the development of t206's from their inception with renewed clarity
(even at the theorizing stage with the beginnings of corroborations) is mesmerizing---at least for us 'nuts', as you say.
great work, Ted et al.

a great ride! and many,many thanks for the e-mail response,Ted!

Barry

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

I like your "Primacy of Piedmont" theory a lot--but I'm not sure Schaefer (Detroit) exemplifies it. My survey data show one instance of Schaefer (Detroit) with Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30. This could be a mistake--either a recording error on my part or the result of an ebay seller having scanned the wrong back. But it's there in my data nonetheless.

Here is the list of 150/350 subjects that my survey data show with a Piedmont 350 back but no other 350 back:

Chance (Red), Clarke (Cleveland), Dahlen (Boston), Delahanty (Washington), Durham, Ganley, Herzog (New York), Karger, Kleinow (Batting), Lumley, Matty (Portrait), Mullin (Throwing), Stone and Wiltse (No Cap). (You can add Lundgren (Chicago) to this list based on what we have learned on this thread about his availability with Piedmont 350).

Many, but not all, of these players switched teams during the 1909 season or the off-season that followed. More particularly, at least Dahlen, Delahanty, Durham, Ganley, Herzog, Karger, Kleinow and Lundgren switched teams. (Durham and Lundgren were sent down to the minors).

I'd like to see if anybody has any of the above 14 or 15 subjects with a Sovereign 350 or Sweet Caporal 350 back. It would be great if Chance, Clarke, Lumley, Matty, Stone and Wiltse were confirmed with Sweet Caporal 350 or Sovereign 350 and the others were not. That would advance your theory a long way in my view.

Scot

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Of your list Scot,

I have Sweet Cap 350, 30 for Lumley and Herzog, NY.

Lee

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Posted By: Bill

Scot,

I have some 350 backs other than Piedmont on cards that you just listed. Here is what I have:

Chance Red Sovereign 150
Clarke Cleveland Sovereign 150, SC 150 Fac. 649
Dahlen Boston Piedmont 150
Delehanty Washington El Principe De Gales
Durham Piedmont 150
Ganley SC 150 Fac. 30
Herzog New York SC 350 Fac. 30
Karger Piedmont 150
Kleinow NY Batting Sovereign 350
Lumley SC 350 Fac. 25
Mathewson Portrait Piedmont 150
Mullin Throwing Piedmont 150
Stone Sovereign 150
Wiltse Portrait No Cap Sovereign 350

Bill

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Posted By: barry arnold

my wiltse(no cap) is a Hindu---otherwise, i have 150's. chance red sc150;
clarke cleveland p 150;delehanty washington p150;ganley sc 150; karger p150;
kleinow batting p150; lumley p150;wiltse (no cap) Hindu brown

great research question, Scot.

best,

barry

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Great! So we can scratch Herzog, Kleinow, Lumley and Wiltse from the list before ol' T-rex even gets back on the thread!

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Posted By: Elliot

Sorry for the late reply.
4 EPDG's out of about 440 t206's.

Doyle Fielding--P150
Ewing--P150
Jones (St.Louis)--P150 x 2
Lindeman--P150
Schaefer (det)--Sc150
Mullin (hor)--Sc150

I also have Lumley in a SC350.

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Posted By: Drew

I'd like to see if anybody has any of the above 14 or 15 subjects with a Sovereign 350 or Sweet Caporal 350 back. It would be great if Chance, Clarke, Lumley, Matty, Stone and Wiltse were confirmed with Sweet Caporal 350 or Sovereign 350 and the others were not. That would advance your theory a long way in my view.

Hi Scot

I have the following cards
Matty portrait SC 350 Factory 30
Chance red SC 350 Factory 25


Drew

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Posted By: barry arnold

thanks, elliot

your 4 epdg out of 440 206's falls right in line with our 1% or less figure.

all the best,

barry

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Posted By: Art M.

Scott,
I have the following cards from your list of 14 150/350 cards with Sweet Caporal, 350 subjects backs:

Chance (Red), Sweet Cap 350, fac. 30
Delahanty (Washington), Sweet Cap 350, fac. 30
Kleinow (Batting), Sweet Cap 350, fac. 25

Art M.

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Posted By: steve yawitz

I've got a Wiltse (No Cap) with an SC 350 back.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Scot

I am not sure that players like Dahlen might prove anything, since he
was in a Boston (AL) uniform till 1910.....well within the 350 Series
time frame. So I would expect this first Dahlen card to have the full
complement of Tobacco backs. Is this a fair assumption ?

Anyhow, here are all my backs of the 15 cards you noted......

Chance.......P150..SC150..P350..P350
JJ Clarke.....P150..SC350..EPDG
Dahlen.......P150..P150..SC150
Delehanty...P150..P150
Durham......P150
Ganley.......P150
Herzog.......P150..SC150
Karger........P150
Kleinow......P150..P350
Lumley.......P150..SC350
Matty.........P150..Sov 150..P350
Mullin.........P150..Sov150
Stone.........P150
Wiltse........P150
Lundgren....P150..P150..P150..P150..EPDG


Edited to add 4 more cards (Matty-P350, Kleinow-P350, Clarke-SC350 & EPDG)

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,
Dahlen left Boston to become the manager of Brooklyn after the 1909 season and before the 1910 season. So I think his example may be relevant to your "Primacy of Piedmont" theory (as the good professor has dubbed it). Looks like many, but not all, of the 14 or 15 have been ruled-out as Piedmont 350 only. Let's do a tally after a day or so more of contributions.
Scot

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Posted By: robert a

My Dahlen Boston is Hindu

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Posted By: Dan Koochin

I was checking through my notes, one of the forum members
listed a Schulte (front view Cubs) 350 subjects in his T206 collection last year.

Also , does anyone have a scan of the 'rumored'
M. Brown throwing Cubs EPDG? This I have to see to believe...

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

SCOT R.

I've gone back and referred to all my notes in putting together my 3 sets
of T206's. And, from your list of 14 cards (except Lundgren) I have noted
that Durham and Ganley were tougher to find than most 150 Series cards
in the set.

So, I'll go "out on the limb" and suggest that only these two will conform
to my "Piedmont theory" (as so far Lundgren appears to be one). Let me
clarify....Durham and Ganley can be found with P150, SC150, Sov150 and
Hindu backs. As a 350 Series card, I say they exist only as a Piedmont 350.
And, therefore we can expect these two also with EPDG backs.

Dahlen (Boston) has never been tough to find according to my notes. So, I
I will not go "out on a limb" for him.

And, Scot, I am sure there are some guys out there already searching thru
their T206 cards ready to prove me wrong.....it's a great hobby, especially
when we are talking T206's.

T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: Scott Mosley

Sorry that it has taken me so long to add my data but I, like others, enjoy threads and sharing information like this.

Ames - P150
Doyle - P150
Ewing - SC150
Jones - SC150 fact 649 OP
Lindeman - P150
Lundgren - P150
Schulte - P150

Out of a near set (minus the big six) I only have one EPDG card of Overall.

I also have a Wiltse, No Cap, SC350 as others have reported.

Scott

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Dan,
Purported Schulte (Front Views) with Sweet Cap 350 have shown up on ebay a couple of times in the last few years. Turns out that each time the seller put up the wrong back scan or improperly described the back--which was 150 in each case. I have heard other rumblings of Schulte with Sweet Cap 350, but never confirmed. I would love to actually SEE one in a PSA or SGC holder to put this issue to rest. Also, it is interesting that I have never heard any rumors of Schulte (Front View) with a Piedmont 350 back--a more common back than the Sweet Cap 350.
Scot

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Posted By: Aaron Cowan

I have 2 EPDG backs of only 24 T206s, although I am a back collector. I also have a Tom Jones with a Hindu back.

Aaron Cowan
acowan19@gmail.com

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Scot

"350 Subjects" survey on the remaining 6 cards that you have identified....

Player.............P350.......SC350........Sv350.. ....HINDU......EPDG

Dahlen (Bost........0............0..............0........ .....1............0

Durham...............0............1............... 0............0............0

Ganley................1............0.............. 0.............0............1

Karger.................1............0............. .0............0............2

Lundgren (Cubs)....3...........0..............0............ .1............4

Mullin (horiz).........2...........0..............0...... .......0............3

OK guys....let's keep this data rolling.

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Posted By: RayB

Of the 14-15 additional cards I have only 2 in my collection of 160 or so T-206's.
Karger Piedmont 150
Kleinow Batting piedmont 150

On another note, this thread has crystalized a lot about what I've learned about back rarities in assorted publications, including Scot's.
Thanks guys for rolling out the resources.

This is now my set of choice, after many years of wandering. The intricacies are fascinating, the mystery intriguing, and the fun is endless!

RayB

Always looking for presentable PSA 1,2,3's that I need for my humble set.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Ray

Welcome to the club....you are already 30% on your way to completing the set.

Best regards, Ted

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Hi Ted,
Thanks for the spreadsheet. I recently owned and sold a Ganley Piedmont 350. I bought it SPECIFICALLY because it had a 350 back. You can add "1" to Ganley/Piedmont 350.
Thanks,
Scot

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,
Also recently saw a high-grade PSA example of Karger with Piedmont 350. It was either a PSA 7 or 8.
Scot

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Posted By: T206Collector

Lo and behold, I have some relevant information...
I own a Sweet Caporal 350 backed Durham, so:

Durham - SC 350
Dahlen (Bost.) - SC 150
Ganley - P 150
Karger - SC 150
Lundgren (Cubs) - P 150
Mullin (horiz) - P 150

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Posted By: Mike (18colt)

I (like Drew several posts earlier) can confirm the Matty portrait with a SC 350 back (mine is also factory 30).

Mike (18colt)

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Posted By: barry arnold

Scott M,

many thanks for your input regarding your 1, I repeat, 1 EPDG out of in excess of 500.
you really help the cause since you have less than

one-fifth of one percent EPDG---

all the best,

barry
p.s.
great tabulating, trex!

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Posted By: Dan Koochin

If its on EPDG , there's the possibilty a 350 series back too. There is a Lindaman SC350 , its PSA graded.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Dan K.

Where did you see this Lindaman 350 ? And, could you provide a scan ?
But, as Scot Reader pointed out (on the Schulte card) front/back scans can
be misleading. And, this is why I have insisted in all these surveys that
the inputs must be based on actual cards in members' collections.

Currently, there are only 2 Graded Lindamans on Ebay.....a P150 and SC150.

T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: Zach S.

As to the original topic of this thread, I have 2 EPDG out of about 100.

My Lindaman is a Pied 150...

Zach

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Scot R.

I know at this point it's anectdotal; however, your examples are "making my
case". But alas, I think we have either "mined" all the various backs that the
Forum members have in their collections. Or, we have reached the point where
we have exhausted their attention to this subject matter.

If the latter is the case......it's disappointing, as we really have just begun to
develop some insight into the subtleties of the T206 back design with respect
to 1st Series "tougher" cards.

T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

I agree with your last post on all counts and this will be my last post on this thread. I would summarize the findings relating to the 150-only debate as follows:

1. Lundgren (Chicago) has been confirmed with a 350 back. The six other identified potential 150-only subjects have not been definitively confirmed with a 350 back (at least in my mind).

2. There are a few 150/350 subjects, many of whom were traded or left the majors after 1909, who likely appear with the Piedmont 350 back but no other 350 back. This may be attributable to the Piedmont 350 print run commencing before the print run for other 350 backs. This "Primacy of Piedmont" trend may persist in the 150 and 460 series.

Lots of room for further study.

Scot

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Posted By: barry arnold

I agree with Scot that much further study is needed
and i for one welcome the opportunity to pursue such study.

Many thanks for your groundbreaking work, TRex.
And for your top drawer tome, scot, which served as the impetus for this board working together on these very important issues. I should underscore 'board working together' since we saw
a collegiality that is most remarkable and refreshing.

best,

Barry