Beware Carterscards2006

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by mdschulze

The grade, grader, or grading company's liability isn't the issue here at all. If the buyer bought ANY item and decided he didn't want it for ANY reason, he/she should be able to get a full refund, period (unless the buyer damaged the item)! We could be talking about a shirt here instead of a card and it shouldn't change the buyer/seller ethics. JMO

People are forgetting the fact that this was NOT a purchase, it was an auction. If it was a BIN, I might agree that the buyer has a right to change his mind and return. However, allowing returns on an auction is not fair to the other bidders who could have won the auction and would have been completely happy with the card.

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?

For those that are on the buyer's side, can someone answer Rob's question from above?

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Does GAI have enough money to do that?

I believe the GAI that graded that card no longer exists as a corporate entity. There is a company out there, using the initials GAI, and Mike Baker is in charge, but I believe it's actually a different name on the corp.

[mdschulze]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

People are forgetting the fact that this was NOT a purchase, it was an auction. If it was a BIN, I might agree that the buyer has a right to change his mind and return. However, allowing returns on an auction is not fair to the other bidders who could have won the auction and would have been completely happy with the card.

Good point! If I were the seller, I would gladly accept the return, refund the money, then relist. This would probably save a neg feedback mark as well.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by pgellis

For those that are on the buyer's side, can someone answer Rob's question from above?

I think it depends on the auctions terms and conditions. I haven't checked too many card auctions because most stuff in the major auctions is outside my budget.

But I get stamp auction catalogs, and they always have a full page of fine print.
Usually if you want to send something off for certification (The stamp version of slabbing more like a COA) They want that stated up front and in writing, and a certain period of time is allowed for that process. And it's all spelled out in detail.

There have been items that were certified years ago that won't pass today because the knowledge of those types of items has increased. On most expensive stuff it's advisable to get a fresh certificate. I've seen a couple that came with 3 or more certificates some dating back to the 60's.
And if a high value item won't pass certification the auction house usually makes good on it anyway.

Steve B

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by mdschulze

Good point! If I were the seller, I would gladly accept the return, refund the money, then relist. This would probably save a neg feedback mark as well.

Actually it's too late. The OP already left a neutral.

[edhans]

Rawn,
Please re-read my posts. I never said that the seller knew the card was trimmed. It could have been an oversight. Or perhaps the seller, like so many other sellers, simply accepted the TPG's opinion and didn't bother to examine the card closely. It doesn't matter. If it turns out that it was altered, the seller should be responsible, regardless of what holder it was in.

Ed

[mdschulze]

I've sold several items on Ebay in the past and have had a couple come back and bite me (both were damaged during shipping). I ended up refunding the buyers upon receiving proof of the damaged items... and I received positive feedback on both transactions. For me, it's a matter of doing good business. The seller in this case could either relist the card or offer as a second chance purchase for the next high bidder. JMO

[nolemmings]

Well this sure has been fun. I started out warning you of a seller who was unresponsive, which was followed by evidence (and I have more)showing him to be questionable, and now I see it's back on me. That's fine, I'll deal with it in my own way, and I thank those who have supported me, although again, that was not my purpose in posting.

Peter, sorry to disagree, and I repeat my statement that SGC is in many ways irrelevant here. If I stand here before you and swear that card was trimmed and can prove it, then the seller sold me an altered card, not measuring up to the minimum expected in the hobby, regardless if I ever sent it to SGC for a second opinion. The seller at least implicitly warranted that the card was authentic and unaltered, and if I can prove otherwise, he is on the hook as far as I'm concerned. It wouldn't matter if it was an SGC card that was trimmed, or PSA (gasp). If I can prove it was altered, seller loses, unless at a minimum he can show he expressly disclaimed alterations and had no knowledge. Again, that is because anyone buying a graded card has a reasonable expectation that it is authentic and unaltered--unless expressly stated otherwise. I'm confident the law will back me up on that. So assume for argument it was an SGC card and PSA said it was trimmed-- if I can convince a trier of fact that the card was altered, under these circumstances I should win. That may rock some people's world, but that is how it would play out, IMHO.

Now the reason no one ever analyzes this more fully, in my opinion, is because they immediately leap to the conclusion that I cannot "prove" a card was trimmed unless some certain number of experts backs me up-- I love the earlier post stating that it's currently tied at 1-1. Cards are rarely worth the trouble and expense of litigation, and many here are not lawyers. They lick their wounds and chalk it up as a lesson, often blaming themselves. Me, I don't lay down. If you sold me an altered card, I will do what I can to undo your damage, simple as that. If a court does not believe I have proved my case, then I lose--no surprise there. I'll take my chances, and I have a pretty fair idea of what I am doing.

I hope to later post as to what I think should happen in the marketplace, but I recognize that few people ask my opinion and that I will not likely be a great influence on the matter in the long run. At this point, I would only state that when I sell, I offer a minimum 20 and sometimes 30 day return privilege, no questions asked, so long as the card is returned in the condition I shipped it. I would extend that even longer if reasonable or if that's what becomes normal in the marketplace, because I stand behind my sales. IMO, sellers need to learn that this is good business practice, and that if you've avoided it thus far it is more likely because people did not want to incur the hassle than any kind of legal or moral notion that you are in the right to get away with selling crap. The law will catch up with you eventually, and ever-growing consumer protections will make right what is right.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Todd:

I respectfully disagree with you as to the nature of what the seller of a TPG graded card is representing in today's marketplace. The whole point of TPG is to provide an OPINION as to a card's authenticity and grade, in a domain where outside of obvious cases these issues are essentially matters of opinion and inference. The very fact that TPG flourishes is a testament to the marketplace's collective discomfort with authenticating its own cards. As a result, that TPG opinion has a certain value in the marketplace, according to how reliable the market thnks the TPG is. Thus, if I sell a PSA 8, I am not personally representing that the card is authentic, I am representing that PSA thinks it's authentic and that it is in NM/MT condition -- how the hell do I know, especially when it's inside a holder?

PS If the card is so OBVIOUSLY trimmed such that any dealer should have known, that might be different, because perhaps one could infer deceptive intent.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

The seller at least implicitly warranted that the card was authentic and unaltered,

I disagree. The seller implicitly warranted that the card was deemed authentic and unaltered by GAI. Nothing more, nothing less. It still comes back to "you received exactly what was being sold".

Now legally, unless you can prove that the seller knew that the card was trimmed, you're kinda stuck. Plus the auction clearly stated "no returns accepted". Believe it or not, the ebay auction are technically a legally binding contract that you enter into upon bidding. If it says no returns, then the seller is not legally required to accept returns for any reason, unless you can prove intent to deceive.

Also, I'm kind of offended by the way you threw this seller under the bus... Coming in here all guns a blazing that this guy ripped you off. A simple, "hey, what would you guys do" without mentioning names, would've been more than enough to start things off. You've basically attempted to create a public perception that he's out there ripping people off left and right..

I'm sure everyone in here, deep down, wants to have your back in this situation, and neither of you are necessarily right or wrong. BUT the reason some people in here are siding with the seller, is because of the way you approached all of this. Please understand that it's nothing personal though.

We all get bit sometimes, it's the nature of the game.

Anyways, just from looking at the card, I can't tell if it's trimmed or not, but am I the only that's noticing that it might be slightly diamond cut?

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Hi Todd,

Your situation really sucks.

I really love threads like this when so many people jump to conclusions by reading what they think you wrote instead of what actually was written or make responses to the threads without thoroughly reading them.

Oh the Joys.

My best to you Todd, and if the people don't realize that the seller is suspect keep buying from him if nothing else you will get the card you bid just paying more than you should. Shill bidding sellers are always great until they get busted and then if you had bought from him you have to wonder how much he actually stole from you.

Todd,It's looks like a redo in Baltimore in 2012. I promise I will let you buy the seats to the Orioles game this time.

Lee

[nolemmings]

Hey Lee, you made my day, which is an expression of choice as I am currently watching Clint in "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" in the TV Room and walked by the computer on my way to the kitchen for my last beer. Good, bad and ugly is so apropos right now. But yes, thanks for stating here in front of God and everyone that you'll let me buy the tix in Baltimore next time. Now I won't harp on the fact that your choice of seats barely had us in the ballpark and right under speakers that were 3 times louder than what I've been subjected to at a Springsteen concert. Hope the T202s are treating you well, and I'll pester you for some Twins tix if I make it back to Sota this season.

Spaeth, I'll deal with you later

Novakjr, please allow me to have a different opinion of what the law would require in proving my case.

[mintacular]

how many extraneous comments are made to buttress the OP's grievance (Carter's is a shill bidder, he touted GAI 1st generation, he didn't respond to my emails, Todd is a great guy, etc.) when none of that crap is really relevant to the issue, now is it?

Maybe Carters is a POS but none of that really matters when it comes to the issue posed by the OP which is that he bought a card by a 2nd-Tier grading co. (now) and is having to face the fact that it did not cross over by a TPG w/a numerical grade and may likely be trimmed.

If the OP really wants his pound of flesh it needs to be from GAI, not Carters.

[novakjr]

And before we get too carried away with the shilling stuff....I will admit that the 97% bid history from that one guy looks suspicious. Let's not jump to too many conclusions though, anything's possible. With the exception of that SGC Cobb, the guy seems to only be targeting high grade PSA stuff. But then again his only two other auctions won are a signed tennis racket and that ridiculous Kobe Bryant shirt.

But looking at your auction, there was clearly no shilling involved.

I must also point out that Todd has an 81% bid history with this seller...Todd, have you been one of his shill partners?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Reasonable people are explaining to you why the seller is not at fault here and you just refuse to listen. I'll approach this from another angle. True story: I bought the following card from another very reputable board member a couple of months ago. I absolutely despise PSA so I had it crossed over to SGC. It came back a full grade lower - was a 7 came back a 6. Do I take this up with the seller? After all, he advertised it as NM and it came back as Ex/Mt, which are 2 totally different grades. According to your logic he is clearly at fault, right?


The seller's own scan:



My own pic:

[3-2-count]

Hey, I remember that card!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Hi, Tony. Yip, that was the card I got from you. I was being a bit sarcastic in my post to make a point, but in reality I believe it's a 7 (actually thought it might get a 7.5) and SGC just missed it this time around. I will probably crack it out and send it back in again. My point was that I just think it's ridiculous to hold a seller accountable for a TPGs mistake (if it even was a mistake).

BTW, Tony is an absolute pleasure to deal with and has a lot of really nice cards for sale on his website (see his signature line).

[painthistorian]

Bottom Line- If card is NOT cracked out by SGC or anyone else, Todd, you can return it...stating that all sales are final is useless in the eyes of paypal or e bay, if you state that there was snot on the case, it is Not as described and e bay will instruct a seller to take the card back as long as you send it back with PROPER signature confirmation or registered. I would advise showing your postal official the card in the holder prior to shipping so the seller cannot state otherwise. Unfortunately, e bay always sides with the buyer, I cannot tell you how ridiculous some of the chargebacks we have received, but we just take the item back, period...better not to have case recorded which hurts a DSR.
If SGC cracked it out, you are out of luck...Best wishes
However, from a moral standpoint, I also bid on that card, it is a great card, you took a shot. We all know a percentage of GAI cards were altered but many were not.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

One other concern about Carter is Ed's statement:

"Curiously, I once got a second chance offer from this seller about four hours after the auction ended. Needless to say, I didn't take him up on it."

What exactly was he going to sell Ed?

Lee

[teetwoohsix]

If I were the seller of the card, and this situation happened to me, I would ultimately come to the conclusion that this situation could easily be taken care of by accepting the return and refunding the $$. Why?

Because I wouldn't want to leave a customer this dissatisfied- especially if he is willing to spend over 1k on a card. And I am not 100% certain the seller knew it was trimmed, or, meant to scam. I have bought v/g graded GAI cards that I've submitted to SGC and they either A) crossed to same grade or B) got a bump up- so I doubt SGC is just discriminating because of the slab it's in.

So I am in the middle on who is right or wrong, just have an opinion on how it should be handled from here.

Good luck on the outcome Todd- I hope it works out for you.

Sincerely, Clayton

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?

anyone?

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

anyone?

The answer is no. You'd then return it to SGC(assuming it's still holdered), and get your money from them. From the SGC website.

"The SGC Guarantee

SGC Guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the owner of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the owner may resubmit the card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade.

If the grade determined under such review is lower than that originally assigned to the card, SGC shall, at SGC's discretion, either replace the card or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the card at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such card, in the form of either cash or grading credit. Due to the volatile nature of the sportscard market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular sportscard. SGC will determine the current fair market value of a card which is assigned a lower grade on review, based upon what SGC believes to be reliable current market information. Clerical errors with respect to the description or grade of the card(s) which would be obvious upon inspection shall not be subject to the SGC guarantee stated herein."

[pwilk17]

What if PSA says a card is trimmed and SGC swears the card is not trimmed - what then? What if SGC says a card is trimmed and GAI swears it is not trimmed? What if PRO says a card is trimmed and SGC swears it is not trimmed? What then?

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

What if PSA says a card is trimmed and SGC swears the card is not trimmed - what then? What if SGC says a card is trimmed and GAI swears it is not trimmed? What if PRO says a card is trimmed and SGC swears it is not trimmed? What then?

Well, that's where this gets tough, because GAI won't be doing anything at this point. Anyways, I'm pretty sure PRO wouldn't notice that it's trimmed, I think they'd just cross over. But let's be serious, who's gonna cross over a card to PRO? Let's just forget about PRO all-together.

PSA also has a financial guarantee.

"The PSA Financial Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder.

PSA guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails our authenticity standards, PSA will buy the card back from the submitter at the current market value. The current market value is determined by PSA, based in part on SMR values and/or recent prices realized from the marketplace. PSA has sole discretion in regards to the buyback price."

HOWEVER, I've noticed that none of these companies seem to mention anything about another company deeming their cards unworthy of the given grade. At that point, it would be in the best interest to send back the still holdered card, along with the report from the second grading company to show PSA or SGC what was found, and then let them make the call from there.

Now as far as GAI goes... I believe Baker bought the old company and re-branded it, rather than starting a brand new company. Assuming that's the case, it should put him on the hook for any original GAI assets and/or screw ups.

[pwilk17]

That is why I say - No Return - Todd bought the card in a GAI slab. Todd was relying on GAI's opinion that the card was not trimmed. He cannot now say it is trimmed because SGC said it is so. Todd is now deciding that the card is trimmed based on what - because SGC says it is so? or in his own opinion it is? So what? SGC and Todd are not the masters of the universe. If Todd bought the card in a SGC slab and then PRO (I am using PRO to make a point) says it is trimmed - does Todd now believe he has sufficient proof to get a refund or to have SGC pay him the difference - SGC would say PRO is full of something and not pay Todd the difference. Todd bought the card in a GAI slab - case closed.

[edhans]

Lee,
It was a mid to low grade group of T205s. It was sometime last fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger8mush View Post
So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?
anyone?

The answer is yes. If the card is trimmed, the holder and any warranties, guaranties or disclaimers are irrelevant. The seller is responsible for the product he sells. The product under warranty is the card. The holder is merely one man's opinion of the authenticity, originality and grade of the card. Errors can, and have, been made. Sellers cannot hide behind grading company's mistakes. It's the duty of the seller to make the buyer whole and pursue any claim he may have against the grading company.

In the case of the 57 Banks, Tony listed the card as a PSA 7. By not expressly disclaiming that grade, he warranted that it was in near mint condition. If David could prove that the card wasn't in near mint condition, he is entitled to a refund. As a practical matter, that burden of proof would be exponentially more difficult than a trimmed vs 7.5. Another TPG's rating of EM6 would probably not be sufficient proof in this case.

[Edwolf1963]

Very interesting read! I keep going back to simple communication being the root of many problems.

The opinions of who knew what and what Carters does/does not have to do are all subject to opinion and debate. To me, it all goes back to the fact that Carters has not responded to Todd in any way. Back to Johnny's point, the silence, ignoring, hope you'll go away stuff says more to me about this situation and Carters than anything else. That doesn't help anyone or anything - it's the root cause of this issue.

Seriously, would this thread even be here if Carters were to have responded to Todd? Picked up the phone, tried to work out some sort of mutually acceptable solution? And at the end of the day if the buyer is unhappy, then make him happy - resolve the situation and give him his money back!

Is it really worth it to hang on to Todd's money and wait and see what kind of vengence he can bring? Especially since they know they'll lose anyway (it is true that "all sales final", "no refunds", etc means nothing to eBay - if he sends the card back in same case/same condition .. and SGC won't crack unless you tell them to .. Todd will win whether or not you/me/Carters agrees with it) - so why ignore him - what will that get you..??

And wouldn't we all want to do business with someone who stands behind what they sell? Will be there to at least be respectful, listen and respond if I have a question/need? Treat me as a customer as they would want to be treated in kind? To me, that's what it all comes down to. I realize there are extreme circumstances (abuse, unreasonable demands, disrespectful behavior, etc) - but for most of us, the times when a customer is unhappy and wants an exception is rare - so why not step up and resolve the situation?

One thing out of all this is that I know I will avoid Carters .. not because of opinions on who's right, whether or not they knew the card was trimmed or shill accusations, etc. .. but because they haven't at least responded to Todd. Disrespectful and says a lot about them/the kind of business they run.

[pwilk17]

Ed - you are still not pointing out what party can absolutley determine that a card has been trimmed or not - Who can say with a 100% certainty that a card is trimmed and eligible for a refund or restitution from a grading company? No one can prove that the card has been trimmed with a 100% certainty!

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

Ed - you are still not pointing out what party can absolutley determine that a card has been trimmed or not - Who can say with a 100% certainty that a card is trimmed and eligible for a refund or restitution from a grading company? No one can prove that the card has been trimmed with a 100% certainty!

+1

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

Ed - you are still not pointing out what party can absolutley determine that a card has been trimmed or not - Who can say with a 100% certainty that a card is trimmed and eligible for a refund or restitution from a grading company? No one can prove that the card has been trimmed with a 100% certainty!

But that's beside the point - didn't I express that above..?! Who knows, who cares - we can debate that one for eternity. I don't disagree w/you, but that's not the point. The customer is unhappy (for whatever reason) - requests a refund - seller does not at least consider/respond = issue. How do I resolve the issue?

Not about who's right or wrong (IMO), it's about how can I be reasonable and respond, work with, try an find some solution that I can live with and keep my customer happy. I'd rather manage my reputation proactively and have Todd post something (here, Google, Yelp, etc) about buying from me w/confidence and why as opposed to this!

[pgellis]

A lot of people are assuming that Carter's knew that the card was trimmed when they sold it. How can someone come to this conclusion? It was in a legitimate TPG case. You can say all you want about GAI, but if I buy a card in a GAI case with a numerical grade, I assume that it is not trimmed. That is what Carter's did (I assume) in this case. Then when they sell it, they are selling it as a card that has passed GAI's specifications. They are not selling a card that has passed SGC's specs.

Some people are saying that "the customer is always right" and that a business owner should always refund a customer his money when asked, for any reason. That is from the mouths of people who have never been in business for themselves. Try running a business like that and see how long you stay in business. Of course you want to have a good reputation in business and don't want disgruntled customers, but it is a balancing act between good customers and customers who feel that they deserve everything.

The OP has done enough damage on this forum to Carters already and smeared his name on here enough that some members will not deal with them. I find it funny that this is the first negative incident with this dealer that has 3000 positive feedback. They seem to make most everyone else that they deal with happy.

[pwilk17]

Hi Ed - My reply was to Ed Hans post - not yours - Ed Hans keeps insisting that if the card is trimmed that the buyer is entitled to restitution - I am asking him who can determine that a card is trimmed with 100% certainty. No one can! 5,000 experts can say it is trimmed and 5,000 experts can say it is not - who is right? SGC and Todd are not the masters of the universe in the matter of the GAI card - GAI says it not trimmed - Todd bought the GAI card.

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

Hi Ed - My reply was to Ed Hans post - not yours - Ed Hans keeps insisting that if the card is trimmed that the buyer is entitled to restitution - I am asking him who can determine that a card is trimmed with 100% certainty. No one can! 5,000 experts can say it is trimmed and 5,000 experts can say it is not - who is right? SGC and Todd are not the masters of the universe in the matter of the GAI card - GAI says it not trimmed - Todd bought the GAI card.

Oops - My apologies! I saw it after mine and "Ed" so assumed to me

[nolemmings]

pwilk17

So why don't you respond to Edwolf's point. You title your post with "Reply to Ed Wolf" and then you do nothing other than to say you were talking to someone else. Do you have a response to his point?

[pwilk17]

Hi Todd - I have made my point very clear in the posts I have made on this thread. I am sorry that you are unhappy that SGC does not agree with GAI. I think that is the point. If SGc agreed with GAI, you would be happy. Because they do not, you are not happy. SGC is not the be all and end all with respect to grading cards!

[Peter_Spaeth]

"You can say all you want about GAI, but if I buy a card in a GAI case with a numerical grade, I assume that it is not trimmed."


The reality is that with any of the TPGs, it's a question of odds, because we all know they all make mistakes -- we only disagreee about the extent of those mistakes. The market steeply discounts GAI cards, reflecting the collective wisdom that the odds they got it wrong in terms of authentication and/or grade are higher in its case.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I have bought v/g graded GAI cards that I've submitted to SGC and they either A) crossed to same grade or B) got a bump up- so I doubt SGC is just discriminating because of the slab it's in.


Sincerely, Clayton

Well, I try to stay out of these type of skirmishes, but..............didn't Spence just buy into SGC and bring his own people over?

It's already been revealed in pretty obvious fashion that Spence and his people are in fact discriminating based on what authentication a piece is accompanied by.

GAI apparently has a bad reputation with autographs. It wouldn't shock me if GAI cards become the next target of.............."well if it's in that holder.......it must be bad".


Anyways. My simple take on the matter. If it's still in the holder....refund. If it's not........then don't.

[mdschulze]

I'm one of the ones who said "the customer is always right" (98% of the time), and I conduct business in that manner (for the record, I own 3 businesses and have not bankrupted yet). It's one thing for a customer to ask for a 100% refund for a service that was provided but not for an undamaged, tangible item that was purchased. In this scenario, what does the Seller stand to lose by refunding the Buyer's money? Issue the refund, get your undamaged item back, then offer a "second chance" to the next highest bidder or just relist the item. No harm done and everyone's happy.

Look at the negative exposure the Seller has gotten already just with this thread. I think a business is more likely to suffer financially from negative exposure (such as this) than to issue a refund every now and then. The Seller is not losing money... he can still sell the undamaged card and keep a positive reputation all the same. JMO!

[oldjudge]

So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?
anyone?

Absolutely, and I believe that, as upstanding guys, that Scott and Leon would. They would then return the card to the seller (losing only the buyers commission) and the seller would have to take it up with SGC.

[leaflover]

I agree. If it is still in the holder....Refund! If not still in the holder, then it's a problem.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?
anyone?

Absolutely, and I believe that, as upstanding guys, that Scott and Leon would. They would then return the card to the seller (losing only the buyers commission) and the seller would have to take it up with SGC.

What if they had already paid the consignor?


They would essentially be on the hook for nearly double what the card initially sold for.


You don't think the consignor is going to put up a fight with B&L after being told they are having a card returned to them in a state different then what was initially sent out..............oh and by the way.......return the check we paid out to you?

[vintagetoppsguy]

I don't know what type of lawyer you are, but if I hire you to represent me in court of law and lose my case, will you refund my money because I am not happy with the outcome? After all, the customer is always right, right?

[pwilk17]

HMMMM - Perhaps an apology is in order. If the new management team at SGC are the same people as in this article (This article is definitely worth a read),

http://www.autographalert.com/news.html

then perhaps SGC is the new be all and end all in card grading. The people in the article are very sure of themselves. Now I do not know for certain that these are the new people running the show at SGC (that is an unconfirmed rumor), however, if they are, this changes everything. If these people say the card is trimmed, then it must be trimmed - look at their vast experience with autographs.

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by mdschulze

I'm one of the ones who said "the customer is always right" (98% of the time), and I conduct business in that manner (for the record, I own 3 businesses and have not bankrupted yet). It's one thing for a customer to ask for a 100% refund for a service that was provided but not for an undamaged, tangible item that was purchased. In this scenario, what does the Seller stand to lose by refunding the Buyer's money? Issue the refund, get your undamaged item back, then offer a "second chance" to the next highest bidder or just relist the item. No harm done and everyone's happy.

Look at the negative exposure the Seller has gotten already just with this thread. I think a business is more likely to suffer financially from negative exposure (such as this) than to issue a refund every now and then. The Seller is not losing money... he can still sell the undamaged card and keep a positive reputation all the same. JMO!

So when is a deal a "done deal"? What if a buyer decides in a couple of weeks that he now needs the $1000 that he spent on a card to pay an unexpected bill. Can't the buyer say, "hey I can just return that card I bought 2 weeks ago for a full refund".

In this case, the buyer bought a GAI graded card in an auction setting for the price that he bid. He received said GAI graded card. End of deal.

[nolemmings]

I don't know what type of lawyer you are, but if I hire you to represent me in court of law and lose my case, will you refund my money because I am not happy with the outcome? After all, the customer is always right, right?

Show me where I said the customer is always right. Your failure to grasp the concepts of my complaint is nearly stupifying to me. Re-read post #1 and see why I posted. I got no response from this guy--Mr. Customer Service, not so much as a sorry, no refunds, no discussion. Left me to either eat $1000 or take it up with Ebay. You can disagree with me when I say I think I'm entitled to a refund--I expected that. But have the courtesy to not put words in my mouth.

[pwilk17]

Todd - I am not looking to quarrel with you - I am just looking to make a point.

Here is what you said;

Frank, I don't need the card to be graded by SGC "in the first place". I have cards from these sets in all 5 company holders, including one "PRO" that I know to be authentic and unaltered, albeit overgraded. The holder means nothing to me so long as the card is good. Similarly, I didn't care about the numeric grade, and I submitted this with a request for a minimum 60. I didn't/don't need just a nm example of this card-- I would take one in most grades and my collection of this set spans from grades 2 to 8, depending on back.

I submitted this card because I was concerned about its being trimmed--while some don't mind altered cards, I do, and certainly so at the non-altered price. I submitted it within 24 hours of receiving it, and requested the 24 hour turnaround time, both out of fairness to the seller--if I was going to seek a refund I wanted to do so timely.

If you not need the card to be graded by SGC, then why send it to them in the first place and why are you taking their word that it is trimmed? GAI could easily be correct and SGC could easily be wrong.

[Ladder7]

Supporters of the buyer or seller, each will be overly cautious when bidding on his items.

Seller should realize, Regardless of who is right or wrong, his future sales will take knocks.

Stating the obvious, Assume all GAIs are an "A", at best.

[vintagetoppsguy]

You failed to answer your question so never mind, Todd. You show your true character and I'm sure you'll get exactly what you deserve in the end - NOTHING! But hey, keep us updated as I would like to know the outcome. If you win the case, I think I will adopt your business practice - buy a card on eBay that is graded by a TPG, attempt to cross it over to another TPG and if it fails to cross over whine for my money back. After all, what would I have to lose?

[oldjudge]

They would essentially be on the hook for nearly double what the card initially sold for


Not sure what kind of math you are using. They charge buyers 12.5% and do not charge sellers. They would refund to the auction winner what he paid. They would give up the 12.5% the made before and, at worst, lose what the card sold for. But, since auction checks typically don't go out for almost a month after the auction ends they would still have not paid the consignor so it would not be an issue. If the auction winner informed B&L that there was a question with the lot they would withhold consignor payment until the issue was resolved.