Probstein video about trimmed cards

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am not talking about raw cards. Slabbed. Shocking though it is, I observe that people don't care. Card gets outed, registry set owner doesn't care because they have the flip in their registry. I flip your last sentence back at you.

Again, I have addressed this from my first very post here. See previous statement. That people believe the Authenticator that signs off on a lie or is complicit in a conspiracy, does not make it not fraud. That would be utterly nonsensical. Getting away with fraud past an expert does not absolve the crime in any other case that I can think of.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Again, I have addressed this from my first very post here. See previous statement. That people believe the Authenticator that signs off on a lie or is complicit in a conspiracy, does not make it not fraud. That would be utterly nonsensical. Getting away with fraud past an expert does not absolve the crime in any other case that I can think of.

And I addressed your point. I said this hobby generates absurd things, and this is one of them. It is nonsensical. But it's true. What's hard for you is what's hard for me -- that people ACTUALLY don't care. I think you're not really getting your head around that, and you're just arguing from a flawed premise, namely that people do care. If they do care, all your argument are perfectly logical. But we're not in a logical world any more. All cats have four paws. Rover has four paws. Therefore, Rover is a cat. That's the hobby.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And I addressed your point. I said this hobby generates absurd things, and this is one of them. It is nonsensical. But it's true. What's hard for you is what's hard for me -- that people ACTUALLY don't care.

Go through the premises. I can only say it so many different ways. When honestly presented raw, the trimmed card is worth far less. We thus know trimming is material.

That the fraudster gets it by an expert and people then subsequently take the experts word does not make it not fraud. Very obviously.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Go through the premises. I can only say it so many different ways. When honestly presented raw, the trimmed card is worth far less. We thus know trimming is material.

That the fraudster gets it by an expert and people then subsequently take the experts word does not make it not fraud. Very obviously.

No. I accept your premise even if Travis does not. But slabbing changes everything. Yes, it does make it not fraud, because once slabbed, the perception of value from slab and flip negates the prior fraud.

Construct a poll to determine how many set registry guys would give up cards if they knew they were trimmed. I would bet more would keep them than not.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No. I accept your premise even if Travis does not. But slabbing changes everything. Yes, it does make it not fraud, because once slabbed, the perception of value from slab and flip negates the prior fraud.

Construct a poll to determine how many set registry guys would give up cards if they knew they were trimmed. I would bet more would keep them than not.

You believe that if a fraudster gets an Authenticator to sign off on it, and people then believe the Authenticator, it is no longer fraud?

I can only imagine how many fraudsters in prison would love to learn this information. If you fool someone, it becomes okay. That makes sense.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am not talking about raw cards. Slabbed. Shocking though it is, I observe that people don't care. Card gets outed, registry set owner doesn't care because they have the flip in their registry. I flip your last sentence back at you. Pun intended.

Or guy needs a PSA 9 for his registry. He'll pay the same for a PSA 9 even if you tell him it's trimmed. The flip is what he wants.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No. I accept your premise even if Travis does not. But slabbing changes everything. Yes, it does make it not fraud, because once slabbed, the perception of value from slab and flip negates the prior fraud.

Construct a poll to determine how many set registry guys would give up cards if they knew they were trimmed. I would bet more would keep them than not.

I'd still quibble with your premise that set registry owners don't care if they discover that one of their PSA 9 cards is trimmed, and therefore should've been slabbed as altered.

Even if we assume that the registry owners wouldn't remove the PSA 9 from the set, all it proves is that registry owners will act in their self-interest and carry on the ruse for reputation and money, rather than take the bullet for the original card doctor and the corrupt and/or negligent third-party grader.

Instead of polling registry owners to see how many would give up the cards they knew were trimmed, poll them to see how many would replace the outed PSA 9 with a legit one, if presented with the option at no additional cost. Or ask how many would've paid the same price for the outed PSA 9 if they had known it was trimmed. Those kinds of questions are a better gauge of materiality for fraud purposes.

The counterargument that slabbing changes the perception of value doesn't negate the materiality element of fraud; it speaks more to damages.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

I'd still quibble with your premise that set registry owners don't care if they discover that one of their PSA 9 cards is trimmed, and therefore should've been slabbed as altered.

The reality though is that it's not just a few cards here or there. It's the majority of cards in every top registry set on the entire PSA registry. It's all a facade. Every single one of those cards are either laughably over graded, trimmed, or both. So learning the truth means that most of their cards are altered, but so are everyone else's. That's the rub. And that's why most of them won't care anyhow even if they learned it. You either play that silly registry game or you don't. And for those who do choose to compete on the registry, they're all buying flips, not cards. If they were interested in cards, they'd all be looking for centered copies with high eye appeal rather than these diamond cut cards with print lines that magically made their way into PSA 9 holders and 10s that have 1/8" between the card borders and the bumpers inside the holders.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The reality though is that it's not just a few cards here or there. It's the majority of cards in every top registry set on the entire PSA registry. It's all a facade. Every single one of those cards are either laughably over graded, trimmed, or both. So learning the truth means that most of their cards are altered, but so are everyone else's. That's the rub. And that's why most of them won't care anyhow even if they learned it. You either play that silly registry game or you don't. And for those who do choose to compete on the registry, they're all buying flips, not cards. If they were interested in cards, they'd all be looking for centered copies with high eye appeal rather than these diamond cut cards with print lines that magically made their way into PSA 9 holders and 10s that have 1/8" between the card borders and the bumpers inside the holders.

It angers and saddens me that we have come to this point, But I think you are right about the extent of alterations and overgrading. And given the choice between, say, a POS 8 and a goregous 6, the registry guy will take the 8 every single time. As I like to say, the flip is the commodity.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Instead of polling registry owners to see how many would give up the cards they knew were trimmed, poll them to see how many would replace the outed PSA 9 with a legit one, if presented with the option at no additional cost. Or ask how many would've paid the same price for the outed PSA 9 if they had known it was trimmed. Those kinds of questions are a better gauge of materiality for fraud purposes.

I think that's a better argument, but you still run into a problem once you learn that the PSA 9 you replaced it with is also trimmed. And so is the next one in line. And the one after that, which wasn't trimmed, is actually a 7 hiding in a 9 holder.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

I'd still quibble with your premise that set registry owners don't care if they discover that one of their PSA 9 cards is trimmed, and therefore should've been slabbed as altered.

Even if we assume that the registry owners wouldn't remove the PSA 9 from the set, all it proves is that registry owners will act in their self-interest and carry on the ruse for reputation and money, rather than take the bullet for the original card doctor and the corrupt and/or negligent third-party grader.

Instead of polling registry owners to see how many would give up the cards they knew were trimmed, poll them to see how many would replace the outed PSA 9 with a legit one, if presented with the option at no additional cost. Or ask how many would've paid the same price for the outed PSA 9 if they had known it was trimmed. Those kinds of questions are a better gauge of materiality for fraud purposes.

The counterargument that slabbing changes the perception of value doesn't negate the materiality element of fraud; it speaks more to damages.

I think it's a fair argument that if something has no effect on value, it ain't material. I suppose you could go down the rabbit hole of a concept we sometimes see in law called qualitative materiality, but that's a reach. Here is a hypo for you, in the spirit of those you proposed. Ask a registry owner with a trimmed 9 if he is willing to pay MORE for one that isn't and replace it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Interesting thing from my POV. We had a recent thread where guys aired their hobby grievances. I believe I was the ONLY one who even mentioned card doctoring.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No. I accept your premise even if Travis does not. But slabbing changes everything. Yes, it does make it not fraud, because once slabbed, the perception of value from slab and flip negates the prior fraud.

Construct a poll to determine how many set registry guys would give up cards if they knew they were trimmed. I would bet more would keep them than not.

I think registry guys are mostly oblivious to trimming issues, and believe, simply, that if a card is graded it can't be trimmed. Otherwise why would PSA give it a grade?

Yes, of course the holder sanitizes the fraud, because most collectors trust PSA. Trimmed cards are not an issue they think applies to them. And if you looked at their cards and told them that these 10 are trimmed, it wouldn't be material to them because they wouldn't believe you.