Most underated HOFers in the hobby?

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Posted By: qualitycards.com

Seems that many choose Phil Rizzuto as an over-rated HOF'er.
My logic has always been....If Pee Wee Reese is in the Hall so should Rizzuto.
Rizzuto won an MVP, hit .273, had a better fielding % and went to 9 World Series winning 7

Reese hit .269 and went to 7 World Series winning 1

Ted Williams was asked what was the difference in the Yankees always going to the World Series and not the Red Sox, his response "Phil Rizzuto"

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Well Jay, I guess that I got my information from somewhere. The point wasn't where I found it though, it was whether McGwire's two specific accomplishments were well publicized or not.

I think that we have put on a sufficient show for everyone to determine that for themselves, if they even care. Rest assured that I will not ask you to identify the specific issues of the publications which you are referring to.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=280&item=4522569762&rd=1

this ones all about him

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5160001385&rd=1
notice this is an extra edition of SI,they only do that for special occasions

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=280&item=4522569336&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50133&item=5159714139&rd=1

everybody gets tv guide Gilbert

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50133&item=5159652482&rd=1

not a publication but they dont give stamps to just anyone

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5159628708&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5159625541&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5159416380&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5159416206&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64483&item=5159268584&rd=1

not a book but they dont put people on wheaties boxes cause they smell nice

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5159232756&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73429&item=5154084714&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5146058398&rd=1

this one is a good read Gilbert

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5144991354&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5144991577&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73430&item=5140503651&rd=1

well damn,thats a 120 page book all about it

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73430&item=5131228419&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5109260146&rd=1

time magazine huh,not big on baseball usually


Those are just the ones i found on ebay that are going right now with him on the cover.I didnt include any of the commerative plates,hartland statues,pins,baseballs,videos,trading cards,posters or photos that specifically commerarate his home run feat,and there were a couple other magazines in found at the end but were in big lots and included ones i had already posted.

Also if you go in a 5 year stretch of home runs including the year after McGwires amazing 4 year stretch and the year after Sosa's best 4 year stretch,youll find out Sosa hit 5 more home runs over that time.Remember what Bill James said,using the lowest common denominator you could put Amos Otis in the hall of fame and have a good argument for it.

How many guys in baseball history have had over 350 doubles,1000 runs scored and rbis,2000 hits,60 triples,190 homers,a slugging percent of at least .425 and 340 stolen bases.The answer is less than 10 and Amos Otis is one of them.You could go thru a who's who of baseball history and eliminate them Ruth,Cobb,Aaron,Mays,Mantle,Robinson,Lajoie,Collin s,any 19th century player,Foxx,Dimaggio,Gehrig etc etc but theres good old Amos Otis in a group with Bonds,Barry Larkin,Roberto Alomar and Joe Morgan.If you want to make the group even smaller to include just Amos,all you have to say is 'and led the league in doubles and/or stolen bases at least once'

Good old Amos Otis is the only guy ever in baseball history to put up those numbers,plus he won 3 gold gloves.Does that make him the best player of all time then or one of the best.No...Does it make him underrated because no one here knew that since James book came out 7 years ago before 3 of those guys made his first list which included alot less qualifiers.

Every knew Mark McGwire hit home runs at a record pace,it was on espn and the newspapers everyday,you couldnt miss it.It was rehashed when Bonds was closing in on it,ive read it places including a Bill James book,i couldve figured it out on my own but because you dont hear about it everyday doesnt mean its not in print,im sure his hall of fame plaque will mention it.

Mac's streak is impressive but theres plenty of impressive stuff you hear alot less and it doesnt get the guy into the hall of fame based solely on it.Mark Grace led the majors in hits and doubles in the 90's. Hes not going to the HOF,and thats a domination over a 10 year period with natural boundries set,everyone knows what a decade is

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

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Posted By: jay behrens

Gilbert, if you truely are the dense, you deserve to take my title of Dunderhead. As I said in another post, if people in GERMANY!!!! that aren't baseball fans know about McGwire and his frenetic HR pace, then imagine how overhyped that info is here in the US.

I'd say quit while your ahead, but all you do is dig yourself a deeper hole. Let us know when you hit China.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I dont even want to know what his comment was do i. This is the most ridiculous conversation ive ever heard and im in it.

Heres more proof for you Gilbert,do a yahoo serch for Mark McGwire,and then so you dont feel bad do one for Mark McGuire also and believe it or not more results come up.

Then do one for Harmon Killebrew and one for Ralph Kiner and youll find out he has 2 of the greatest pure home run hitters in baseball history beat in website mentions by a ratio of 10 to 1 and thats combined for the both

You could go look that up right now at yahoo.com to see im not fabricating it at all....then come back and tell me hes underrated or underappreciated

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Posted By: Greg

Gary Gaetti in the Hall of Fame...why not elect Stale Dale Murphy on the first ballot. Ooh wait! How about Steve Balboni, he was on the Yankees, that makes him eligable right? Maybe if it was the 'stromboli gnawing' HOF. The only people that would vote Gaetti into the Hall are his close relatives, it's the Hall of FAME not the Hall of Noteriety. Gary Gaetti??
Greg B.

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Permanent time out on Mark McGwire, please. If you want to discuss Canseco's merits, go right ahead.

Bill

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Posted By: jay behrens

Bill, we can't talk about Canseco becuase that would lead to a discussion about guns and the NRA. And that is never a good thing on an internet board.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Well that was so good, lemme try another. The next most underrated HOFs are the keystone combination for the White Sox in the fifties and sixties.

Again because of records. One led the league in an offensive catagory for ten consecutive years, the other for "only" nine. Id haveta check, but I believe the only other MLB players to achieve that were Ruth and Cobb.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I think Mel Harder is the most underrated,so underrated they dont even give him a plaque desite getting enough votes to be elected one year.Dont believe me,heres the explanation of the rules at the time it happened...

One player per voting can be elected to the hall of fame as long as he has the most votes from the 15-20 members of the veterans committee and he exceeds 75 percent of the vote.Harder passed the 75 percent mark during one veterans election[not sure on year but ill edit it when i look it up] but lost out by one vote to someone else.

So he did recieve 75 percent of the votes one year[actually 80 percent] but he wasnt the top vote getter. Hows that for a Hard[er] kick in the pants

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Posted By: jay behrens

Gilbert, it's hard for bottom tier HOFers to be underrated in the hobby. It's kind of like a back up catcher being underrated.

Lefty Grove is considered one of teh 5 greatest pitchers of all-time, yet his card prices don't refelct it. That is what it means to be underrated IN THE HOBBY. Likewise, Hornsby and his 4 year run puts to shame anything Ruth or Bonds has ever put together, plus he has career numbers to match. But from the prices of his cards, you'd never guess he was one of the greatest hitters the game ever saw. That's what it means to underrated in the hobby.

Apparicio and Fox are far from being underrated in the game or in the hobby. Appariciio lead the league in SB when no one was stealing. 20 SB could easily get you title. Now if he won 10 straight titles in the deadball era or in today's game, then it might be an impressive feat. If Ruth had managed to stay healthy in '22 and '25 he would have run off 14 straight HR titles, but it would have come with the same caveat, he got most of his titles when no one else was hitting HRs.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

What is really difficult is to identify players which you are sure to disagree with, who at the same time are a little defensable.

So let the games begin.

Certainly you can't find fault with the selection of players who although they led the league in an offensive catagory for nominally a decade, received essentially no publicity for this achievement.

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Posted By: Glen V

I think all anyone cares about today is home runs. If someone like Cobb (maybe Rickey Henderson) played today, where would he rank? Would Henderson make your top-10 baseball players list? Would Paul Molitor even come to mind just for the last 20 years? He was 8th all-time in hits, 500+ doubles, 500+ stolen bases, World Series MVP, and had a 39 game hit streak. So he was a DH, he still put up the numbers. To me that's more impressive than R. Jackson striking out over 2,500 times.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Glen: where does Ichiro rank?

Helton, Pujols, etc.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I love the SB as much, or more than most people, but except for a brief time in the mid 80s with Henderson, Raines and Coleman at their peak, no one gave a rats ass about SBs. Casual fans don't appreciate the little things it takes to win a game. All they care about are HRs and players swinging as hard as they can to try and hit the ball out of the park. They could care less what went into setting up that situation that allowed those runs to be scored.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Gilbert, onsidering that not one of those players you mentioned is even 2 years away from having 10 years of service, it's kind of pointless to figure out where they rank. I don't think any of them meets minimum requirements for career records.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Billy

Lefty Grove is a very interesting case. His constantly led the league in ERA and his career ERA was one and a half runs lower than the league AVERAGE over that period. His is #3 in black ink, #6 in grey ink rankings for pitchers all-time, and a 300 game winner. How did he only get voted on 76.40% of the ballots??

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Posted By: Josh Evans

Most overrated Barry Halper

Most underrated Mr. Mint