T207 Napoleons

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Posted By: robert a

Why are there never any Napoleon back T207 for sale?
I thought broadleafs and anonymous backs are supposed to be harder to find.

What has your experience been?

Rob

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Posted By: Dylan

Your right, i havent noticed any napoleons for sale on ebay but many broadleafs and cycle backs. Quoting T207.com " Napoleon backs are scarce, while Broadleaf, Cycle and "Anonymous" are significantly harder. Red Cross is famously rare." If this is true and Napoleon are more common then broadleaf and cycle, where are they?

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Napoleon backs only appear with the players that have Recruit backs (in other words, there is no overlap in players between Broadleaf/Cycle and Recruit/Napoleon backs). The survey I did for my articles showed that Napoleon backs appear on about 3% of the Recruit class of players. They are very scarce. It's difficult to compare their scarcity to Broadleaf/Cycle backs directly, but they should probably carry more of a premium than they seem to.

Tim

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Posted By: croftscocoa

I had over 100 when I was collecting T207's a few years back, including some HOF'ers (as well as the Carey Rookie - I had two of those with Napoleon backs). When I sold them, most of the winners buried them in their sets I know, and some of the winners simply saved scarcer T207 backs. That may be why you don't see the Napoleons that ofter - they are "tucked away". I remember reading an OLD article on T207 backs where the author had Napoleons listed right behind Red Cross in terms of scarcity. However, we now know that is definitely NOT the case. Again, they are out there - people are probably just hanging on to them. I do remember Gar Miller had a few HOF'ers (including a Carey Rookie I believe) with Napoleon backs for sale a year or so ago. I don't know if he still has those or not, but they might be good deals now if he does! They are out there - you just have to search. I know a few board members obtained most of mine when I sold out as well.

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Posted By: croftscocoa

Just checked Gar Miller's website - the Napoleons are gone! In fact, he only has around 9 T207's left at all. Some of the board members must have raided his store since I was last on his website.

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Posted By: Bob

I have some Napoleon backs in my set, I just never thought that much about the Nap backs when I was putting together the set. Since they are generally on the most common cards in the set, collectors aren't rushing to sell them. The "common back" HOFers like Tinker, Bresnahan, Bender, etc., are not that tough to find.
I personally think that the Anonymous factory no. 3 (Louisana) backs make those cards the most undervalued, but that's just one man's opinion and there is virtually no collector interest in going after these cards, so that's why they sell for almost the same price as the Recruit backs.

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Posted By: S Gross

I was goning to start another thread on a T207 auction, but it fits into this "Recruit" back discussion.
According to Tim Newcomb's VCBC article the breakdown of surveyed "Recruit" cards were:
Recruit -- 96.67%
Napoleon -- 2.28%
Anon Fact. 3 -- 1.05%
So those numbers back up what Tbob just memtioned about Anon 3 thougher than Napoleons (survey shows 2:1). A Collins Anon. 3 just sold on ebay for ~$50. If it had a Napoleon back, I would venture 3x to 5x (or even more) .... correct ????

But what puzzles me is the following auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=220120001542&rd=1&rd=1

Sure, Hageman has a possible Anon. 3 and Napoleon back, but this is a straight up Recruit. And this wasn't just two guys fighting it out. Am I missing something, or did this card (40vg3) go for ~5x normal price (if there is such thing as normal price) ??????????????

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Posted By: leon

For some reason the winning bidder has bid on over 100 items with 30% from this seller. Pretty cozy relationship......

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Posted By: Marc S.

just be a really tough example? According to VCP, an SGC Authentic sold for $74 over fifteen months ago...

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Posted By: leon

There have been a few threads about this seller shilling his stuff...or having friends do it. It's not impossible but is pretty hard to believe that the buyer would have bid on 30% of this persons items.....could happen....but dunno....

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Posted By: Bob

I sold that very card on ebay about 18-24 months ago for $35. Hard to believe it has appreciated that much...

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Posted By: bcornell

It's because the winner hoards Hageman cards and has for years - I believe he shares the same last name. He consistently bids them up to whatever price it takes to win... not enjoyable if you want win a single one. Whether a shill is 'helping' is another story.

Edited to add: in VG, it should be a $35 card.


Bill

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

it might not be the winner. I noticed the underbidder has 66% of his/her bids on this seller's items and is rather new to eBay (or at least the handle). I also remember those threads on Net 54 Leon referred to about this person shilling or having other shill for him. To be honest, I don't even look at this seller's auctions any longer b/c of this shilling possibility!

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Posted By: Dylan

Well the Anonymous back may very well be about twice as tough as the Napoleon but its not all about rarity all the time! The napoleon back is a brand name and a unique one, im not aware of any other baseball set that you can obtain a napoleon advertisement. Whereas the anonymous back is just that...anonymous, and not all that exciting. As a type card collector I love the advertisements on the back as much as the images on the front.

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Posted By: Scott Hageman

Here is the REAL STORY! I am Scott Hageman and after completing a 1956 Topps set about 6 years ago I decided to collect one specific old card. What better than the only Hageman to play baseball, and better yet he only had one card! So over the last 6 years I picked them up whenever I saw them and commonly paid about $15-30 per card. I do not have a huge stock pile, approx. 20 of them but the last couple of years I did not see too many. This is why I started to email some of you trying to track down any leads on others. From what I can tell there are a lot more Hageman cards out there but they are locked up in sets but this is true of MANY of the T207 cards. I myself could not believe that jellybeans223? bid $219 in Feb to purchase one so this last one in JUNE I put in a Ridiculously high bid because I was on summer vacation and would not be able to bid on it again. I really did not think it would go over $219 again (which is too high as well)! Just got home to see the results and all the debate it caused on this site. My days of getting Hageman cards may be over since that price could buy...........................a lot of other things!!!
BUT.........I would argue that not just this Hageman card but MANY of the T207 cards have skyrocketed in price in the last 12-24 months. What cost $15-20 a year ago is most likely a min. $40-60 now and many cards that I think would be 50-100 are selling for 300-500.

All my other T207 bidding is simply on cards that I feel are worth more such as the John Henry Anon. SGC 10 for $44. 1) John Henry is not listed as rare, but in my collecting he seems to be and 2) I know the Anon. is rare in any condition.

I guess I should just select the watch list but I have this fantasy that occasionally some of these cards will sell for, what I think, are reasonable prices, unfortunately they rarely do.

Since everyone else is putting in their two cents I will too. If Napoleon cards are more common than Anon. I would like to be the person sitting on that HIDDEN stockpile because Napoleon backs (at least the last year or two) are VERY hard to find.

I also have an opinion about a lot of the T207 cards. Such as, if you find a Clyde Engle --- BUY IT!

Also, Fromme is not listed in the list of 50 rarer Recruit Backs but has anyone else felt that this card is slightly rare? I think it is on ebay RIGHT NOW but that may be the first time in 6 months or more.

I thought I should finally join the T207 club and express my opinon before everyone gets too carried away with this Casey Hageman T207 panic attack!

May be some of you hate me for collecting just one specific card but for me it added a whole new dimension in baseball card fever, plus I could do some geneology too.

Happy to response to any questions or "polite" comments,

Scott

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Posted By: Scott Hageman

My info from 2/2/2007

SGC TOTAL = 2805 PSA TOTAL = 2195 OVERALL TOTAL =5000

RECRUIT 85.9%
Broadleaf 6.2%
Anon 4.4%
Cycle 2.5%
Napoleon 1.0%
Red Cross 0.0%

THESE ARE PROBABLY SKEWED SINCE PSA DOES NOT BREAK THEM INTO DIFFERENT BACK TYPES.


My 2nd Count in APRIL OF ONLY SGC
4/6/2007
Rec BLeaf Anon Cyc Nap RedC TOTAL
2304336245 134 50 2 3071
75% 11% 8% 4.4% 1.6% 0%

RECRUIT 75%
Broadleaf 11%
Anon 8%
Cycle 4.4%
Napoleon 1.6%
Red Cross 0.0%


ALSO,
PA VS. MD FACTORY INFO
I WOULD SAY APPROX 70-75% =PA 25-30% = MD
however,
THE HAGEMAN CARDS I HAVE ARE 58% PA TO 42% MD. This makes me wonder if it is due to small sample size or if the list of 50 more scarce Recruit backs are more evenly distributed between PA and MD.

Just some Info that I thought some others might like to ponder,
Scott

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Posted By: Dylan

According to your small sample, Napoleon is much tougher then everyone has been saying. Itd be nice to have a survey done and get a large sample to draw from...

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Tim does have a current survey. I haven't seen him on here for a while though.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Another factor to remember is that people grading cards will be sending in their RARE ONES---Broadleaf, Cycle, Napoleon, etc. ---and NOT the Recruit backs SO.........

I would say that 90-95% (maybe more) of all T207 are Recruit backs.

My personal opinion is the individuals paying $300 and up for Broadleaf cards are getting a rare card BUT clearly not the rarest of the group and would be better off buying the Cycle, Anon. or NAPOLEON!

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Posted By: Bob

Scott- The numbers are badly skewed because there are two different Anonymous backs from two different factories in two different states. One is ONLY found on the "tough back" cards which otherwise contain only Broadleaf and Cycle backs. The other can rear its head on "tough back" cards but also on "common (Recruit)" cards. The latter is the really rare one. Lipset once theorized that this is the only back which could appear on every card and he may be right in theory but most of the T207s have never appeared or surfaced with this second Anonymous back.
tbob
P.S. Hageman is a bitch to find in nice condition. It is like the Stoval, hard to find but when you find them they are generally g/vg to vg at best. Who knows why?

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Posted By: S Gross

I agree with all the above:

Tbob is absolutely correct in that the numbers Scott H has provided need to have the Anon. backs broken down into "common" vs. "tough" cards.

Scott H., I have also thrown in a totally high snipes thinking no one would touch it, but have lost (or won too high). It happens, what caught my eye was it was more than two bidders bidding high.

I also agree Napoleon backs have a mystique about them. One, I think, is that you can get a "tough" card with a Anon. back, but you CANNOT get a "tough" with a Napoleon. Also, as Dylan pointed out, Napoleon is a advertisement, were Anon. is nothing (other than rare). That is why you can get a lower grade Anon. common for $50-75, were a same condition Napoloen would go ....... (higher).

This is also seen in tough Cycle backs. Cycle and Anon. are about equal in rarity in the tough catagory, but Cycles always seem to go much higher than a corresponding Anon. Cycles seem (at least to me) to have an extra preimun do to the nice color and graphic advertisement.

........... and who said T207s are dull ??????????????????

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Posted By: Scott

Does SGC or PSA break out the Anon 3 vs Anon 25? Or are they as I have them from SGC lumped into Anon?

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Posted By: Scott

I think tbob wrote: (Casey) Hageman ... is like the Stoval, hard to find but when you find them they are generally g/vg to vg at best. Who knows why?

This got me thinking and I checked some of my SGC data and FOR THE RECRUITS, I would put Lefty George in the list as perhaps the hardest to get in any kind of better condition along with

HALLINAN E.S.
SCOTT Jim
RUCKER NAPOLEON
STEELE William
BLOCK JIMMY
MCINTYRE MATTHEW
ZEIDER ROLLIE
MORGAN RAY
HAGEMAN CASEY
NUNAMAKER LESLIE
MCDONALD Edward
CARRIGAN , William
HALL CHARLIE
LEACH THOMAS
SULLIVAN , William
WAGNER HEINIE

But the list quickly looks like Tim's list of harder to find Recruits, many of which are Boston Red Sox cards.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

For what it's worth, my T207 set breaks down this way:

2 Anon 25
7 Anon 3
27 Broadleaf
14 Cycle
6 Napoleon
87 Recruit 240
60 Recruit 606

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Posted By: Scott

Bruce, the only surprise in your collection would the the number of MD 606 vs. PA 240 you have, I would have guessed more PA.

DOES ANYONE KNOW THE DETAILS ON THE CITIES OR FACTORIES THESE CARDS WERE PRINTED FOR THE AMERICAN TOBACCO CO.? Can we assume Richmond, VA Baltimore MD New Orleans, LA ?????????

Anyone tried a 1912 yellow pages address, Ha!

1912 T 207 BROADLEAF Factory 25 2 VA
1912 T 207 CYCLE Factory 25 2 VA
1912 T 207 RED CROSS Factory 10 5 NJ
1912 T 207 RECRUIT Factory 606 MD
1912 T 207 RECRUIT Factory 240 1 PA
1912 T 207 NAPOLEON Factory 240 1 PA
1912 T 207 ANONYMOUS Factory 3 LA
1912 T 207 ANONYMOUS Factory 25 2 VA

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

I'm still around, including earlier in this thread. I'm not currently keeping up the survey-- basically what we have to work with is the figures I reported in the articles three years ago.

If anybody has specific questions and doesn't have access to the articles, email me directly and I'll try to answer them--

Tim

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

...Apologies on both counts-missed your earlier post and thought you still kept the survey. Back to the drawing board for me!

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Posted By: jay behrens

This explains why I haven't been able to get a Hageman for my player set. I've knocked most players that have single card appearances, but I've never been willing to pay the price this card gets for what I felt was an easy to get common.

jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.