Opinions: Fro-Joy Premium

[Clutch-Hitter]

Hey,

I was hoping to get opinions as to the authenticity of this Fro-Joy Premium. It measures approx 8 3/4 by 6 1/8 and is obviously in poor condition. 600 dpi scans of the front and back are included first, followed by photos of the front and back. The photos were taken with direct flash, which is apparent on the left side of the photos because a large top loader is behind the card reflecting the flash. The card is not inside the top loader; it's on top of it.

Thank you for your time.

[canjond]

I'll defer to those who may know more than I do, but this looks like a creation to me. First, the cardboard just doesn't look right. Second, I would not expect to see the background of the upper portion of Ruth (the "sky" if you will) be printed if this was period.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Jon,

I just found this one on Ebay. The one I posted is apparently missing the outer portion as compared to the one here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1928-Fro-Joy-Bab...item23034d8dd4

The seller's description states his example contains a "depressed center area......" approx 6 x 8 3/4. Total approx 8 5/8 x 12.

[canjond]

Interesting - well I might eb changing my opinion as that clearly explains why the cardboard looked so "weird" to me.

[fkw]

I dont recall ever seeing a fake premium. They werent reproduced like the sheet of cards.
Yours is just missing alot of the border, probably 80%.

I remember it on eBay.

[drc]

It's correct that the cards and the card sheets were massively reprinted way back when, but not the Ruth photo premium. Thus, if you find a Ruth photo premium it's many, many times more likely to be genuine. The infamous Fro Joy reprints problem is with the cards and card sheets, not the Ruth photo premium.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks for the information.

FKW, yeah, I bought it from a seller that sells pre-war cards and seems to know what he's doing. When I received it, it never crossed my mind that it was possibly not authentic.

[Clutch-Hitter]

I sent this Fro-Joy premium to BECKETT, knowing it was authentic, and requested authentication only, no number grade. I sent it because my son will be getting my Ruth cards and an authenticated card will be less hassle, which is an excuse for me to collect cards I guess. This was BECKETT'S conclusion:



I've been collecting pre-war for approx 15 years, including Ruth cards, and it never occurred to me that they would conclude the card was not authentic. And yes, questionable authenticity means not authentic. So I e-mailed Beckett and received the following reply:

"Hello Greg,
We certainly recommend sending it to PSA or SGC for a second opinion if you are unhappy with our conclusion. We are very confident that you will get the same response from them. Also, just so you are aware, if PSA or SGC does find that the card is altered you will get the same “Questionable Authenticity” response from them that we gave.
Thanks,
BGS

So it's altered? Is it counterfeit or is it altered? They have a little check box for altered. Heck, they didn't even write a sentence on the card, no brief explanation, nothing. BECKETT can't make up BECKETT'S mind. BECKETT, the leader in grading half cards, cards with no name, etc, oh, and 1995 Topps. If anybody knows that PSA and SGC don't grade Fro-Joys, it's Beckett. No, if anything, SGC and PSA would say trimmed because of it's dimensions, and BECKETT knows they don't grade this issue, so it's an integrity issue for BECKETT to say that. Almost 50.00, man why did I send the modern card people this card? Where's that BECKETT guy that hangs around this board?

We all know what happens to a counterfeit image when a flash impacts that image directly: it wipes the image out, fluoresces and wipes it out. I intentionally used a flash for the pictures and hit the card dead center at a 90 degree angle.


This is where the depressed portion ended, which is one significant clue to anybody, wouldn't you say?

[Clutch-Hitter]

Here's a link to Lengendary Auctions May 2010 auction, which included a 1928 Fro Joy Premium in it's entirety. They included pictures/scans and cropped the border of the photo to allow for a better view in one of them. If you click on the thumbnail, it'll zoom in.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...x?lotid=108654

[Ladder7]

As with most other counterfeited items. The dark areas are always too black where they meet the white areas (lack of transition), removing the real subtle folds and reflections in images. ie; the dark area beneath the R arm, under the brim and the front belt loops.

Nowadays, seems the savvy scammers are using blank pages from very old books etc, to feed their printers -these won't flouresce.

Look at every item as dirty 'til proven clean. And use the experienced eyes of the collectors on this board if in doubt.

If Beckett slabbed this reprint, they'd certainly be knuckleheads.

[Leon]

According to Beckett, a very reliable vintage grading company from the hundreds of vintage cards I have seen graded by them, it is of questionable authenticity. That is their stance. I even emailed them about this item after this thread was posted and they stand by their summation. So why is this such a problem? How can we be positive it IS authentic? I just re-read the thread and probably just missed something. Personally, I can't tell and might even have a hard time in person. best regards

btw, most grading companies will not come on a chat board to talk about their grades.....I don't recall it happening....thought it might have I don't remember it ...

[ullmandds]

upon my initial viewing of the above scan...fake was the first thing that registered to me...the photo doesn't appear very clear...and the coloring of the background seems wrong to me. I WAS duped by buying an uncut fro joy sheet back in college in the late eighties...and this one has a similar lack of quality to me...just my opinion.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Steve and Leon. This is the reason I initiated this thread, so experts could view the card and tell me what I need to know about this card.

Leon, I have fondly associated the name Beckett with sportscards for many years now. They have authenticated many vintage card issues but this isn't a common issue like T206's, etc. If Beckett was simply cautious with this card, The Beckett name should not be discredited by anyone simply due to this seldom seen card issue. As for the important part, I'm trying to figure out if this card is authentic, as I believe it is.

Steve, I do agree that an authentication company should err on the side of caution if there are any doubts. Assuming this is a counterfeit, the criminal happened to correctly measure the interior, depressed portion of the card. If this is a counterfeit, there has to be a way to positively identify the counterfeit characteristics of the card.

I have a Canon T1i, tripod, macro lens, detachable flash, remote switch etc. What do I need to look for? Trust me, I want to prove this card is a counterfeit and identify the associated characteristics.

Here's a link to an REA auction:

Beckett replied to my e-mail that PSA and/or SGC would reach the same conclusion: ALTERED, and would subsequently label the their conclusion the way Beckett did: QUESTIONABLE AUTHENTICITY.

I've been a PSA member for approx a decade and know that PSA would not indicate QUESTIONABLE AUTHENTICITY on an altered item. PSA would say: ALTERED. Again, altered means authentic but enhanced, right?

I did like the fact that Beckett replied to my e-mail, and I understand why they wouldn't post on this forum. I also like the fact that Beckett, a name I have associated with our hobby for a long time now, is bold enough to authenticate Fro Joy's. I like their holders, their fair prices.......and the Beckett name.

If Beckett was simply cautious with this card, Beckett should not be discredited by anyone simply due to this seldom seen card issue.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Peter.

[Leon]

Each time that I have given Beckett cards, which have issues, they have explained in full, and to my satisfaction, why something is the way it is. Heck, if you think you know something different, and have firm reasoning behind it, I am positive they will listen. I know part of the process for determining authenticity is by examining the printing process, ink and patterns. I am aware they do that with very good objectivity, based on processes from the era, as part of their evaluation. I wouldn't look so much at the other attributes (size, trimming, wear etc...) before I was comfortable with that one. regards...

oh yeah, you don't really need to make 20?pt bold letters. Most members can see with the normal writing. You could bold it or underline it, but those big letters don't really help your cause very much. We understand you are upset.

[Clutch-Hitter]

OK Leon. Thank you for your time. This is a great hobby, but it's very frustrating sometimes. I'm going to hunt the seller down now and send this back to him.

I appreciate everyone's time, as always.

By the way, Leon, I wanted to make these letters real big and bold but I stopped myself!

[teetwoohsix]

I think in a case like this it would be nice if they did give you more of a detailed explanation of how they came to their conclusion. Where's Frank W. and his blacklight?

Good luck, I hope you get some answers.

Sincerely, Clayton

[fkw]

PS. If Bob reads this.... the SCD needs to change the description to include the words "B&W" instead of "printed in Blue"

The OPs looked sort of blue to me, but I thought thats the way they should look. Ive never seen one of these in person.

after zooming in on the Legendary Auctions one, I can see slight differences in the contrast under arm, boldness of signature, etc., but they are not obvious until you look for them.

If it is a fake its a good one and fooled me, I almost bid on it myself, mainly for the reason I had never seen a fake before.

Makes no sense to go through all that trouble of finding the paper and printing this out then damaging it to the point where it loses 90%+ of its value. ??Lots of work for less than $100 profit??

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Clayton. It would have been helpful if they did provide some details at least.

I contacted the seller. He said he'll refund my money after I return the card, so that's good.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Frank. If you look at the Ebay auction link at the beginning of this thread, you'll notice in the ask a question section that someone told the seller his premium should be black instead of blue. The seller apparently looked at the description and changed it to black, adding he didn't know why he said blue to start with.

I don't think that seller is changing it just because that guy said something. The card I have has just a hint of blue. It's very, very subtle, so much so that my wife and I looked at this card for a while trying to figure out if it had blue or not. It has a hint.

The seller said the same thing about the condition of this card. He said why would someone make something like that?

[Clutch-Hitter]

*IRRELEVANT PICTURES REMOVED*

Edited to say that subsequent to this my opinion changed following further research. Respected collectors vouched for Beckett and provided reasons for doing so. Meanwhile, I purchased this:

[Clutch-Hitter]

Hey Frank and DRC,
You were right to begin with! Thanks Howard for photographing your premium alongside mine. Thank you Mr Lifson for reviewing the scans and for telling a neat baseball card story.

Hey will Beckett authenticate this now? I need my 50.00 holder!

Hi Greg,

I got your Ruth premium today. Its a nice piece. These are very scarce and even though yours does not have the outside border, the image of Ruth is very nice. These premiums are extremely hard to find in ANY condition. Yours is 1000% authentic.

The first 2 photos (front & back) are with the flash of my camera on and the next two are with the flash off.





Hi Greg! Based on the scan, this looks 100% authentic to me. 100%. 100%. 100%. (it is, however, trimmed).

Sincerely,
Rob L
Robert Lifson
President
Robert Edward Auctions, LLC
P.O. Box 7256
Watchung, N.J. 07069
908-226-9900
908-226-9920 fax
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com

[Clutch-Hitter]

From a past REA auction:

"During a single week in 1928 (August 6th-11th) Fro-Joy Ice Cream issued a six-card set, with each of the six cards featuring Babe Ruth. The backs of these cards invited youngsters to submit (by mail) a complete set in exchange for a large (8-5/8 x 12 inches) premium card. When this special premium card was sent by Fro-Joy to kids, the original six cards were not returned. In their place Fro-Joy sent an uncut sheet of the complete set of six cards, which featured additional advertising printed below the cards, and instructions on how to cut out the cards printed above. The printing quality of the uncut sheets was slightly different and of lesser quality than the individually issued Fro-Joy cards, but were particularly neat looking in an uncut form with the extra advertising. The blue-tinted premium card was printed on a completely different and very unusual stock. One of the problems for collectors that has developed over the past twenty-five years is that for some reason literally millions of reprint Fro-Joy cards and sheets have been printed and are circulating. It's gotten to the point where it's hard to go to a flea market and not see them, and collectors are now so wary of the issue, and confused by the reproductions, that they now tend to just shy away from the set completely. Some grading companies have even stopped grading them. In the 1970s, before there were any Fro-Joy reprints, a single card could cause a riot at a card convention. No one had them! They were so rare that most collectors didn't even know what they looked like. An exciting find of a couple of hundred authentic cards in the late 1970s satisfied the most advanced collectors, but soon after reprints became so common that Fro-Joys understandably began to get a bad reputation. As time passed, some of these reproductions even had some age to them, confusing collectors all the more. Since the 1980s it appears that the printing presses have never stopped running on the reprints, both for individual cards and sheets. There are millions of them! But there also exists a small number of authentic examples. Interestingly, the blue-tint premium card (which has an embossed bevel edge and is printed on a very unusual stock) has never been reproduced. We have seen only about a dozen authentic Fro-Joy uncut sheets (each with an accompanying premium) in all our thirty-seven years. Usually the authentic sheets are accompanied by a Fro-Joy premium, as they were sent by mail together....."

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2008/516.html

[FrankWakefield]

Greg, did you illuminate it with uv light, a black light?

[Clutch-Hitter]

Hey Frank,

I don't have a black light. But if you have one, please PM your address, and I will send it. There will not be any problems with it. There's more information on page 5 of this thread: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=131343&page=5

Also, just so you are aware, if PSA or SGC does find that the card is altered you will get the same “Questionable Authenticity” response from them that we gave.

Thanks,

BGS

[FrankWakefield]

You could buy your own black light for a bit more than would be spent on postage sending it forth and back. But I'll send the address if you want. If it isn't going to fluoresce when illuminated with uv light, and if it is a fake, then whoever made it used old paper... I think sometimes old paper is gleaned from the endpapers of old books. Everyone here should have a black light.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Frank,

I'm attempting to authenticate this third party anyway but will pick one up for any other use.

The card is authentic. I'm not as knowledgeable as most people here, and I'm aware of that. I've received a few counterfeit Ruth cards in the past and put them on this forum for everyone to confirm so I could get my money back. I never questioned the authenticity of this card like the other few, and still didn't question the authenticity when Beckett returned it ? authenticity/altered.

I don't recall seeing any Goudey Premium counterfeits, any Butterfinger counterfeits, any Fro Joy Premium counterfeits, etc. The bigger it is; the less valuable it is. And I would guess the bigger it is; the harder it is to counterfeit.

I'll do whatever y'all think needs to be done. I appreciate your time.

"I think sometimes old paper is gleaned from the endpapers of old books."

It's old cardboard.

On 2-4-2011, I used a black light and photographed the Fro Joy Premium with a counterfeit Fro Joy card that I mentioned in another thread on top of the premium.