How to get ripped off by SCP Auctions & Sotheby's

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

My take is Sotheby's very well may not care, but SCP will. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Moral of the story though (and in saying this I share the disgust of the Board over what has transpired), NEVER bid on a photographic item based soley on a catalogue depiction/description. Too often they omit/misrepresent material details (often innocently, though sometimes not). If on-site inspection is not possible, then call someone at the auction house, ask them to take the item in hand, and then ask your questions.

EDITED for spelling (thanks Barry)

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Posted By: barrysloate

Greg- welcome to the board, and I didn't know my pedantic ways are so well known, even to lurkers. I better watch myself!

Aaron- I've had a few situations recently where a customer has had an issue with something he won in my auction and I have had to make an adjustment. It's basically a negotiation, finding a dollar amount that both sides can live with. Maybe the buyer wanted a little more and I preferred to send him a little less, but we came to a compromise.

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Posted By: Fred C

Ryan,

You're kidding right... this is something Rod Serling couldn't have concocted or thought of... wow, that is just flat out WRONG and bad business. Sotheby and SCP I sure hope you guys look at what $3K (or so) is going to cost you guys in the long run.

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Posted By: Jason Leinberger

...

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Posted By: Steve f

I hope they do the proper thing to make this right. Although you recieved a markedly "different" item, I sure would be unhappy if a return was the only settlement. That is one fantastic shot.

SCP, don't mess up twice.

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Posted By: Jay

Because of their association with Sothebys, SCP already operates at a competitive disadvantage relative to other major auction houses in that they must charge tax to winning bidders from virtually every state. I would think that they would not want to compound this disadvantage with bad publicity. Perhaps I was wrong.

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Posted By: Marc S.

I feel like I'm in a grown-up version of those picture games you used to play as a kid. The ones with two pictures, and you had to identify all the differences between the two. What gross misrepresentation. It is truly pathetic that they have treated you like they have -- were I in your shoes, this would be one of those situations whereby I would have happily come to some sort of agreement, but at this stage would litigate for the principle alone.

Marc

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Thanks for all the responses. I appreciate everyone taking the time to read about this, even though it still feels a little weird to have to start this kind of thread knowing the kind of impact it might have on a company. Having said that, I have absolutely zero sympathy in this particular case. Not because I'm the one they're getting over on, but because this was so easy to prevent. If there had been an ounce of integrity involved in their decision they would have made this right, whether it cost them a few thousand dollars as an adjustment or the full $10,000 to buy it back. Either way, they would have gotten a bunch of that money back right away from the stuff I would have been bidding on in their current auction. But even with zero integrity, all it would require is a shred of business sense to see that it would have just been good business to make it right, especially when not doing so could have such easily predictable negative consequences. Think about some of the larger auction house whose business practices have come into question lately. Do you think any of them would have allowed this situation to get to the point where I posted on the board about it? No way. They’re smarter than that. When Dan Imler said he talked to the powers that be and told me there was nothing they could do for me, all I said to him was “Well, you’re making a big mistake.” and “You’ll regret it.”

Not only was it an incredibly short-sighted decision, but they could have ended this a few weeks ago when I first brought it up. Had they offered me a full refund two weeks ago, I doubt I would have taken it. And that would be that. They would have done the right thing by offering a refund, even if I didn’t take them up on their offer. I bid on this photo because I want to keep it. I never asked for a refund. In fact, I never asked for a partial refund or any kind of adjustment. In the conversations I had with Dan Imler all I said I wanted was something that was fair. Whatever he and I decided that would be. Later, when he asked what I had in mind, that’s when I said I was thinking something in the $3,000 to $4,000 range and let him know that I would have accepted it in auction credit if they didn’t want to give me any money. Never once was I offered any kind of refund or compensation at all. I simply asked that Dan Imler look at the pictures I e-mailed him and then tell me if he thought the item I got was in the same condition as the item in the catalog. After seeing the pictures, he agreed with me that there is, without question, damage that simply was not there, or was made to look like it was not there on the catalog image.

In case it was hidden in my original post, all of the pictures of this item can be seen here: http://cubanbaseballcards.com/SCP-SothebysBastards.html

I appreciate all the suggestions for ways that I can pursue them to get a refund, but you’re all forgetting the fact that I WANT THIS PHOTO! The way this all happened was absolutely not fair and I equate it to being stolen from, but this is a special piece and I want to keep it. It turns out that I wound up paying closer to $5,000 more than I should have, in my opinion, which I only realized once I took the photo out of the frame. Had they offered to give me $3,000 as an adjustment it would not have been enough, but I didn’t know that at the time and would have taken it.

I collect Martin Dihigo cards and photos. This photo pictures him in 1927 as a member of the Cuban Stars just entering the absolute prime of his long and illustrious career. He was only 21 years old!!! HOFer Alejandro Pompez is also there in his nice clean suit, in charge of a team that also had Alejandro Oms, Champion Mesa, Bernardo Baro and other Cuban greats alongside Dihigo. Their opponents were the great Nip Winters and the rest of the Hilldale team, standing there ready battle the foreigners. Here are the boxscores from the two games they played, plus a little blurb about Dihigo's home runs, courtesy of the Baltimore Afro-American:







That's what Dihigo did on that day, probably a few hours, or maybe a few minutes, after posing for this amazing panoramic photo.

The truth is, if this photo arrived cut in half, I still would have wanted to keep it. I just wouldn't want to have paid for a nice, uncut photo, only to receive a poor condition photo in two pieces. But I would gladly have paid the poor condition, cut in two pieces price.

I think the only way I would consider returning it would be with the assurance that it would be auctioned off again, so I could bid on and hopefully win it again. But that doesn't work, either, because there is no way in hell I'm bidding on an auction run by those thieves.

So there you have it. I don't want to return it and get my money refunded, but at least they haven't offered that. It would only complicate things and make me have to spend more time thinking about this ugly mess.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

Ryan, sorry to hear about this mess. It sounds like your are stuck between a rock and a hard place since you really want to keep the photo.

Out of curiosity, did you ask them about the condition of the photo? I ask this since their write up clearly states that there was damage, "...structural damage that includes mutltiple creases( one resulting in a small area of separation) and a small piece of the lower left corner missing."

I am not in any way suggesting that they are not 100% at fault, just that the discrepancy of their description compared to the photo would have raised concerns with me.

I wish you the best in getting an amicable resolution.

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Posted By: Jay

Ryan--Your last post begs the question: if you knew the actual condition of the photo would you have bid as high as you did? If the answer is yes, and the possibility exists that the "underbidder" was the reserve, then I could see an arguement where you are not entitled to any refund.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Jay,

No, I would not have bid as much had I known the actual condition. There were several other lots I would have focused on instead. There were some truly amazing Negro League photos in that auction. I still might have gotten it, but if I'd won any of the other lots I would not have been able to afford bidding as much, even if I wanted to.


Harry,

I thought those flaws that were mentioned in the description were all visible in the image they posted. I noticed multiple creases, mostly near the left edge and left top border. I was also not bothered by the corner damage since it was barely visible in the image I was looking at. I had no idea they'd actually cropped that whole flaw completely out of the image in the catalog and on the website. I did factor all of those flaws into my decision on how much to bid.


-Ryan

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Posted By: Dustan Hedlin

I am by no means a big player in auctions run by auction houses (hell, I just signed up for Sloate's auction and that's the first one I've ever been a part of), but I will also think twice before ever bidding on anything offered by this company. I'm sure my money is just a drop in the bucket for them, but bad reps spread; unfortunately much faster than good reps sometimes.

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Posted By: Paul

Sorry to hear that Ryan. Also, I cant even get the SCP auction to load to see what I'm not going to bid on.

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Posted By: Eric B

I do not normally bid on items in the auction houses but I do plan on selling through them. I have about 6 one-of-a-kind items.

Since many of you will avoid purchasing through them, I will NOT use SCP/Sotheby's.

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Posted By: john

My first post here, always lurked and learned lots by simply reading. In any event....not that it makes any difference but.....The panoramic photo that is being discussed was without a doubt in the same low grade as Ryan has posted at the live event BEFORE the auction. I remember the photo because I initially had every intention of going after it. I just pulled my catalog from the sale and noticed I had written "DO NOT BID, VERY LOW GRADE-MUCH WORSE IN PERSON". Again, not that it makes in difference if you weren't there live, just some info. I can guarantee you that David is not aware of this because he is top notch all the way in matters like this.

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Posted By: JK

The fact that it was in the same low grade condition at the live event only supports the prevailing theory that the photo was altered to remove evidence of the defects or lessen their significance.

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Posted By: john

I seriously doubt anyone with SCP or Sothebys did anything to defraud the public. I can't imagine that you would intentionally alter the photo but then diplay it for all the public to see. Most digital scanners have the feature that filters out any faults and color corrections. If that feature was activated when scanning, the obvious faults would not show in the catalog. Probally a case of nobody editing the catalog. I am sure that david will take care of this. One thing I thought of.....why is this just now coming to light? The auction was in early June. I paid for and had my items in mid June. We are in September now. Did Ryan just notice this after 3 months?

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Posted By: JK

I think you need to go back and read ryan's previous post - he stated that he has been trying to work something out for several weeks. Unlike some, he has chosen to post as a last resort - after he was told by SCP that they would not do anything to make this right.

As to the scanner presets - most scanners will eliminate spots, dust, etc. No scanner will correct for creasing and no scanner crops photos to eliminate torn corners. You should really take a look at the link provided by ryan to the photos/scans that he made and you will see just how dramatically different they are from the scan in the catalog.

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Posted By: boxingbaseballgolf33

What a mess, this maybe the worst year for careless actions from auctions and the hobby from eBay fraud to all the Mastro posts and now issues like this seem to be coming around more often. Sorry to here news like this, but keep your head up, there are great things about this hobby including this board and what I have learned. We all make mistakes, but when negligence takes over the hobby we have to ask what next and why?

Take care

Jimmy

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Posted By: barrysloate

John- first, welcome to the board. But I have to disagree with you.

If you have a scanner that's built to filter out faults, that works great if you are putting together an album of family photos, but not something that should be used for an auction catalog.

I have someone who scans or takes digital pictures of lots for my own auctions. I give him a simple instruction: do not alter the color or tones of an image in any way. His goal is to capture the piece exactly the way it is; if it has flaws, the bidders need to see these flaws.

It is clear that the photo in the catalog did not match the actual lot. And that's a very significant issue.

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Posted By: john

Barry-i agree 100% that using a scanner that filters out faults is not acceptable. We use a Minolta Dimage Scan Multi Pro that, contrary to what JK posted, will take out ANY fault including rips, tears, missing corners, etc. It retailed a few years ago for $4,000 and is not your run of the mill scanner. With a simple mouse click, you can activate the filter/fault correction mode. I would assume this is what happened as it would make no sense to purposely do this and then display it at the live event for all the world to see. Has Ryan spoken to David personally? I would be shocked if he has and received the same response. He would be the only one to deal with on this.

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Posted By: Alan

Hi Ryan - It was a great pleasure meeting you at the National. Sorry to hear about this with SCP/Sotheby's.

Alan

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Posted By: Jim VB

John,

Welcome aboard.

I think before you get too deep into this thread, you may need to go back and read all the posts in this and the attached threads from Ryan. Also look at his web site. This didn't start yesterday. He has been negotiating with SCP for months. Quietly, at first.

Almost a month ago he posted here to get some ideas on what else he could do. Up until the last day or so, he assumed that it would be worked out one way or another. SCP (Dan) finally told him there was nothing they would do.

As far as the scanner issue, sure your way is plausible. Another option is that the picture was re-touched by the printer. In either case, SCP is responsible, no one else. I have 30 years experience in the retail business. If you sell something through a catalog and it is not pictured as the item exists in real life, the seller is responsible.

If that's the case, SCP should fall on their sword and make the customer happy. The avenue they have chosen says to Ryan (and the rest of this board) that his future business with them is not worth a couple of thousand dollars. That is very shortsighted thinking for a company that hopes to remain in business long term.

The only other possibility is that the auctioneer was deliberately trying to fool the bidders. I agree that is not likely. I refuse to believe that anyone could be that stupid. If that could be proven, it would be a criminal case.

In no instance can I see Ryan being at fault. He bought an item based on the catalog representation and that representation was misleading, at best.

He deserves better.

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Posted By: john

Jim- I agree that Ryan should be refunded, no question about it. Their is an obvious misrepresentation here. I saw the photo in person and it was not what appeared in the catalog. I had the benefit of being their live and did not bid due to the condition. I just hate to see posts where claims are made that their is some intentional fraud being conducted. I know David and that crew personally and they are first calss all the way. Again, I will be shocked if David is aware of this and has refused a price adjustment. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water either in terms of not bidding. There are some nice items that I know I'll be bidding on.

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Posted By: Bob

I wouldn't take this lying down, Ryan. You can add me to the list of people who won't be bidding in SCP/Sotheby auctions in the future unless this is amicably straightened out.

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Posted By: leon

How can you defend their actions? You yourself said it was a misrepresentation. OK, lets say that it was just an oversight and mistake. I will even give them that. Then, after the fact and seeing everything, they still say "nothing we can do"? That's kind of hard to swallow...and btw, if David K doesn't know about this yet then he might want to get a better handle on his business. My guess is that he does know about the issue. IF he doesn't then someone at his company should be reprimanded.

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Posted By: Cobby33

It doesn't matter whether this was brought to SCP's attention in June, September or next June. If he was ripped off, he was ripped off. The only applicable limitation of time is the applicable statute of limitation in the jurisdiction which has authority over the transaction.

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Posted By: peter chao

I don't know who the consignor for the photo was, but I would think he/she would also have some responsibility in this matter. The consignor is looking at the photo in the catalog and sees that it has been touched up, he should bring it to the attention of the auction house that there probably will be bidders that will be misled.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Keith Conforti

Deplorable actions by an auction house that I would have considered above such actions... very sorry that you got snookered.

But, to the comment that an image correction/retouch filter was automatically run on this image does not cover all the retouching done on this image... those filters are remarkable at filling in scratches, dirt, spots, etc, but only user retouching could have "repaired" the missing corner in the lower left.

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Posted By: sagard

The missing corner was cropped by the matting and framing.

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Posted By: JimB

For what it is worth, the auction description does say,

"The image quality of the photo is impressive in spite structural damage that includes multiple creases (one resulting in a small area of separation) and a small piece of the lower left corner missing."

I would ask to speak to David Kohler personally if it were me, not someone who gets their marching orders from the "higher ups". I have personally have had only the best interactions with SCP. Clay is really great guy too.
JimB

Edited to add: Ryan, I am sorry that you are having to deal with this. I hope it works out in a way that you are happy with in the end.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

John (nyyanksghr),

I know you said you'd be shocked if David Kohler knew about this and refused a price adjustment, so you might want to be sitting down before you read this:

David Kohler knew about this and refused a price adjustment.

David was the one who made the decision. Had it been up to Dan Imler, it sounded to me like this would already have been resolved, but once Dan talked to David...well, that brings us to where we are now. Sorry to burst your SCP bubble.

If this weren't the case, can you see any reason SCP (Kohler or Imler or some other employee) would not address this thread?

-Ryan

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

I was also eyeing a couple of items in there current auction but now will sit this one out. To bad no one from SCP reads this board and can tell us what went on here. Rob

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Posted By: Marty

What I see is the catalog photo is missing the bottom portion of the photo and the whole photo is held flat, thus masking issues with the top. I can still see most of the flaws and I am wondering if the flaws that I can not see are due to being flat. I am also wondering if the top photo is taken through glass, maybe tented, since there is some shin on the left side.

Maybe the photo was not altered, but a photo of the phote taken in a method to hold the picture flat and thus mask the flaws. Cropping the photo, either through soft ware or by excluding it in the picture is intentionally deceptive IMO.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Was following and planning to bid vigorously on 5 SCP items, am now suspending indefinitely all activity with this auction house.


Daniel

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Okay lawyers,

I just read through this thread again and, after giving it some thought, am now leaning toward possibly pursuing this further. I have a few questions for the many legal eagles we have on the board:

1. How much more time would I have to waste if I did decide to sue them. Is there any compensation for that? I consider any time lost which I could have been spending with my kids to be valuable.

2. Would they have to pay for my lawyer fees when I win or would I win a settlement and then pay lawyer fees out of my pocket?

3. If I did sue and win, would the only recourse for me be to return the photo and get my original money back? Would it be possible to keep the photo and sue for the amount of value I've lost due to the damage it has? I do have an idea of about how much less it's worth compared to what I won it for, but that's only an opinion on my part.

Thanks in advance for any advice or opinions anyone can offer. One of the main factors that is pushing me in the direction of pursuing this is the fact that I haven't received as much as a phone call or e-mail from anyone at SCP Auctions or Sotheby's about this, let alone a response to this thread. I don't care how busy they are with their Wagner sales and Bonds balls and current auctions. My guess is that they're consulting with their legal team before they respond. Not to seek guidance as to what would be the right thing to do, but to find out how to cover their asses, which is probably how they define "the right thing to do" in the first place.

-Ryan

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Posted By: peter chao

Ryan,

Actually, in an earlier thread, Barry pretty much said it all. In most cases as a practical matter it's not worth pursuing litigation. Unfortunately your situation is one of them. You cannot get your attorney fees back.

A better tactic is to go to the District Attorney in New York or the FBI. If you put pressure on them, they may give in.

Why spend good money and make your losses more substantial?

Peter C.

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Posted By: Jason Mishelow

Hello Ryan

I practice in Wisconsin so the local rules may be a bit different but here's a general attempt to answer your questions

1. It is very unlikely that you will be able to sue for lost time or lost wages incurred as part of figting the case. I think that attorney fees are a possibility. the general rule concerning fees is that you recover your fees if the court finds that the other party basically took a postion that had no legal merit. So its not just that you win the case but that judge decides that the auction house was justing wasting time.

2. If you come to some settlement with the auction house the parties can pretty much agree to anything that they want to- it could include atty fees, a partial payment, a credit- rarely would a judge fail to approve a stipulation that the parties present

3. As far as a dimished value type claim I think that you are correctly noting that the main issue is going to be presenting evidence as to value. You will most likely need a expert which may cost money

4. The most pressing problem however may be an issue concerning jurisdiction. This is way to complicated for this forum but to give a cliff notes version there are rules as to where a lawsuit can be commenced. These rules are even more complicated when dealing with corperation. i don't know where you live but it may be required that you sue the auction house in the auction houses home state. this is an issue a lawyer would need to do a fiar amount of research on

So in sort it is not going to be that easy to sue but you may want to call around becuase this is the type of case that lawyers like to take if they feel that they can make some headlines

In any event good luck- and ignore the spelling in this post- I am a much better lawyer then speller

Jason

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Posted By: JK

Ryan,

Recovery of attorney's fees will generally depend on jurisdiction and on the cause of action that you are pursuing. For example, in NC, deceptive conduct such as this could form the basis of a claim for unfair and deceptive trade practices (among others). This statute specifically permits the recovery of attorney's fees to a prevailing plaintiff as well as an automatic tripling of damages. Most states have statutes similar to NC's deceptive trade practices act, but as noted above, your options will depend on where the suit is brought.

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

Ryan,

Pull out your Sotheby's/SCP catalog and look in the section setting forth the rules. I think it is very possible that it will contain a choice of law or forum selection clause setting forth which state's law will apply or where suit must be filed. If it does, and assuming that those provisions are enforceable, you will then be in a better position to determine your potential remedies and the answers to some of your other questions. Good luck. I hope you nail them.

Kenny Cole

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Posted By: Joe D.

But oh my!

I am going to think twice about bidding in any SCP Auction.
Actually to be a bit more blunt - I most likely will avoid them altogether.


Looks like an obvious attempt to deceive.

And then - the "nothing we can do for you"

thats pretty bad stuff.

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Posted By: Solomon Cramer

A general note on negotiating a refund/adjustment request.

I have generally found, both as buyer and seller, that requesting a full return/refund gives you more credibility. You're asking to reverse the transaction, be made "whole", and receive no benefit to the situation.

I have often felt, as a seller, that when someone begins by asking for an adjustment, they are trying to renegotiate the price after the fact. I usually offered to take the item back for a full refund.

Reading this thread, it sounds like Ryan still wants the item - he even asked if he'd have to return it if legal action was taken - but he wants to pay less. I understand his reasoning as a collector, and I think he is entitled to consideration from what he's presented.

But from a seller's perspective, it can appear that he's trying to get a better deal on an item he doesn't want to return. Assuming there is nothing unknown, if he had contacted me in a reasonable amount of time after the end of the auction, my tendency would be to offer a full refund but not an adjustment, and let him make the decision if he wanted to keep the item.

I had a similar case in my current business. I sold someone three F150 King Ranch, and he sent a truck to pick them up. When he got them, he said there was some undisclosed damage on them, and wanted an adjustment (about $3000 I think). I told him I'd pick them up (about 600 miles away) and give him a full refund. He refused...it was clear he'd already sold them, and was looking for a way to steal a few extra bucks. Again I recognize that Ryan isn't looking to profit from this, but in this industry where the line between collector and dealer is at best a faint one, the auction house may not make a distinction.

FWIW, I never had any problems with SCP or Dave Kohler, though I had a more personal relationship with them when Kevin Struss was there 5+ years ago.

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Posted By: peter chao

Ryan,

As an attorney I'm trained to look at all the facts and I'll give you my reasons why I do not think there's fraud here.

As JimB pointed out earlier, in the catalog description you were informed about the creases and the missing portion of the photograph. Also, the photograph is available to be inspected.

Under common law (here in CA) there is a higher standard of proof in order to prove fraud. If you were able to show fruad, you would be entitled to attorney fees.

Peter C.

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Posted By: JimB

Can I request a couple lots in particular that people should not bid on?
JimB

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Posted By: Joe D.

As an attorney you are trained to look at the facts...

so - here is a fact:
SCP chose to crop the image in the EXACT place that would omit the flaws in the photograph.

Why?
Why was the cropping done just like that?
Why was the cropping done in those exact places?

The way I see it....

To make the item appear better than it actually is.
TO DECEIVE.

That description that was written or approved by SCP.... and that cropping that was created or approved by SCP - together they expemplify an intent to deceive.

And why was the color punched up a bit?


Punching up the color, creative cropping....


I'm not an attorney - but I don't think words in a description can make up for a deceptive photo.

Do words in a description excuse a deceptive photo?


edit to say: Solomon - very well said. I agree. Asking for a partial refund does muddy things up a bit for this transaction. Especially since the underbidder might very well (happily) take the item. A full refund or no refund makes sense. What bothers me is the "nothing we can do" answer - and the way the photo was presented to all bidders (in my opinion and obvious attempt to deceive).

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter, I'm curious who trained you. Really. Seriously.

This is a layup for Ryan should this ever get in front of a jury notwithstanding Peter's training. Juries on planet Earth usually hate deep-pocketed corporations that screw the little guy out of relatively small dollars. That being said, due to the small dollar amount in question, legal fees will quickly dwarf the subject amount. There may be some civil lawyers on the board that would carry the spear, so to speak, for Ryan at least to the point of negotiating a settlement.

Edited to add: while the picture may have been available for perusal and the description indicated some damage, just look at the actual picture compared to that which was included in the catalogue. Case closed.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I disagree with the opinions that this is an all or nothing matter- that Ryan should either keep the photo for what he paid or return it for a full refund.

If a few thousand dollar refund would make Ryan feel like he came out whole, and Sotheby's likewise agrees that that is the most logical route, then the matter is solved.

I don't see why a compromise can't be the answer to this, if it makes both sides happy.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I was not ruling out a compromise.

If that makes both happy - that is great.


Only... I do see Solomon's point... and if SCP were to offer Ryan a full refund for return of the product (instead of a partial refund) - I could understand their reasoning for wanting to do so. Then it would fall on Ryan to either accept or deny what I consider is a fair resolution.

edit to say: and regardless of how this is resolved - it will not excuse the willful deception with regard to that photo.

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Posted By: barrysloate

And I agree that an offer of a full refund is an acceptable resolution, but offering nothing at all is clearly an unacceptable one.

P.S.- Joe, could you send me a quick email that I can respond to as your internetville one always gets kicked back. Thanks.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jeff L.,

And where do you get your legal training from? In general, auction bidders are very sophisticated. I doubt that Ryan would get much sympathy. Also, this photo is probably pretty rare a finder of fact may very well think that Ryan got a bad deal but paid an amount that was within the ballpark for the photo.

Also traditionally auction sales are "as is."

Furthermore, the key reason why litigation would be prohibitively expensive is the need for an expert witness. The witness alone would probably charge around $5,000.

I say that we help Ryan out. Let's start an internet boycott of SCP. The news will spread like wildfire and SCP would be quick to give in.

Peter C.