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  #1  
Old 10-27-2018, 03:21 PM
cubman1941 cubman1941 is offline
Jim
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Default Don't know where to ask this - Rowe vs Elder

I read a post on Jim Rowe postcards on here someplace which got me to looking at the ones I have. I have some Jim Rowe based on knowledge provided on this site. I also have some which are autographed and from Jim Elder according to the Auction House post. This got me to thinking if there is a way to differentiate between the two. The ones I have listed as Jim Elder have a broad white border. Is this how one tells the difference?
Thanks.
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Old 10-28-2018, 09:09 AM
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thecatspajamas thecatspajamas is offline
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It would probably be best to expand the question to Rowe vs. Elder vs. Brace vs. Paulson, as all produced RPPC's with similar characteristics.

To answer your specific question though, the Jim Elder RPPC's have a stamped number from 1 to 1400 on the back (printed postcard) side of the postcard with no player identification (at least, not applied by Elder himself, though later collectors may have added their own). They had a white border with a wider margin at the bottom.

Jim Rowe's postcards have a hand-penned block letter identification of the player on the back. They are typically full-bleed (borderless) though some do have an even white border all around. The front border or lack thereof is not the most distinguishing factor though.

Last edited by thecatspajamas; 10-28-2018 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 10-28-2018, 09:44 AM
cubman1941 cubman1941 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecatspajamas View Post
It would probably be best to expand the question to Rowe vs. Elder vs. Brace vs. Paulson, as all produced RPPC's with similar characteristics.

To answer your specific question though, the Jim Elder RPPC's have a stamped number from 1 to 1400 on the back (printed postcard) side of the postcard with no player identification (at least, not applied by Elder himself, though later collectors may have added their own). Jim Rowe's postcards have a hand-penned block letter identification of the player on the back.
Thanks, I just found the data on the Jim Elder postcards having stamped #'s on the back. The question could be expanded but I am not sure anyone would know the complete answer as people like J.D. McCarthy would also have to be added. In addition, since Jim Rowe bought some of George Brace's negatives, how does one differentiate? I think just a whole kettle of fish.

If Jim Rowe's p/c had a hand penned block letter of the name on the back I guess I will have to re-look at what I thought were Jim Rowe and put them back in my Postcard listing. Thanks. I am learning a lot and finding out I don't know hardly anything. Appreciate your response.
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Old 10-28-2018, 09:58 AM
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thecatspajamas thecatspajamas is offline
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McCarthy PC's that I have seen typically have printed text identifying him as the photographer and are not on the standard Kodak RPPC stock used by the others.

I'll try to get you a more detailed response later with sample images, but will be away from my computer for a while. Posting from my phone is hard enough, but impossible for me to add images.

Last edited by thecatspajamas; 10-28-2018 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 10-28-2018, 10:08 AM
cubman1941 cubman1941 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecatspajamas View Post
McCarthy PC's that I have seen typically have printed text identifying him as the photographer and are not on the standard Kodak RPPC stock used by the others.

I'll try to get you a more detailed response later with sample images, but will be away from my computer for a while. Posting from my phone is hard enough, but impossible for me to add images.
Rog that and agree with McCarthy PC's which is how I id'ed them. Appreciate all your help.
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Old 10-30-2018, 08:59 AM
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thecatspajamas thecatspajamas is offline
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The Jim Elder postcards did generally have the broader white border at the bottom, presumably allowing a wider margin for autographs (though most signed versions I have seen did not utilize it for such). While collectors may have themselves penned player identifications on the back, they were issued as the standard Kodak RPPC pre-printed back with a stamped number in the corner corresponding to Elder's catalog number for that particular player (see first example pic below, player signature added later). There were a total of 1400 postcards in the series, with some players having multiple poses (bearing the same sequential number printed on the back). Some of these also bear a secondary stamping with Elder's address (see second pic below) though most I have seen had only the stamped number. Also worth noting is that, while Jim Elder produced the postcards, he utilized negatives shot and provided to him by Norman Paulson. To my knowledge, Elder was not a photographer himself.

Paulson also produced RPPC's himself, though these typically bear his own stamping (including his "Baseball Photo Service" without mention of him personally), or no identification, on the rear. I have seen a few from his estate that had a similar, but slightly different style sequential numbering from the ones produced by Jim Elder, though I don't know if these had widespread distribution, or how many were in the series. Paulson seemed to market his photos primarily to the players themselves. (see third and fourth examples below) Like George Brace, Paulson got his start in basebally photography working with George Burke (primarily photographing minor league players) before branching out on his own. He also provided the images for the 1960 Leaf baseball card series, which may be more familiar to collectors.

The Jim Rowe postcards do not have the printed sequential numbering on the back, but do have a large block-lettered hand-penned identification of the player on each (see fifth example below). Most of the Rowe postcards seen floating around were produced using negatives shot by George Burke in the 1930's-40's which were loaned to Rowe by George Brace sometime in the 1950's-60's following Burke's death. The negatives were never returned to Brace, resulting in a lawsuit in later years which the Brace family unfortunately lost due to the original loan of material having no written documentation for the return of the material.

Then there are the George Brace postcards, which you did not ask about, but which are very similar. While Brace used his own negatives that he shot from the 1950's on (he was photographing baseball players into the early 1990's), his 1930's-1940's postcard images are largely from George Burke negatives as well. He also continued to produce reprints/restrikes from 2nd generation negatives that Burke had accumulated in an effort to compile a complete photographic record of major league baseball players, including those who were no longer active when he began photographing baseball in 1929. Brace frequently penned player identifications on the printed postcard side, as did Rowe, but his handwriting is different than Rowe's and typically consisted of a larger block-lettered last name, comma, somewhat more-scripted first name. (see sixth through eighth examples below) No sequential numbering on Brace's postcards either. As Brace got on in years, his daughter, Mary, took over the production side of the business, and similarly penned the names on the back, with her handwriting being somewhat different than either Brace or Rowe's. There are also blank-backed RPPC's that were produced by Mary Brace in later years which, while still using Kodak (I think) RPPC stock, do not bear the pre-printed postcard back due to a shift in Kodak's production of the photo stock and difficulty/expense in obtaining the same stock that they had used for decades of producing baseball player RPPC's. Other Brace family members also pitched in from time to time in print-production, which may account for further variations in handwriting, but there were certainly other producers of RPPC's using the same pre-printed Kodak stock which are not readily-identifiable as to where they originated.

As mentioned earlier, Joe McCarthy also produced baseball postcards, but these were primarily (perhaps exclusively) printed postcards, not RPPC's (real photo postcards), which were produced through traditional printing methods rather than being true photographic prints as with RPPC's. They can be distinguished by looking at the printed surface under high magnification, in which the printed postcards can be seen to have a regular series of dots and/or screened printing to produce the image, whereas true photographs will have a continuous range shifting from light to dark without a discernible pattern.
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Old 10-30-2018, 11:29 AM
lumberjack lumberjack is offline
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Default rowe/brace

Mary Brace lost possession of her father's negatives and was cheated out of complete compensation by John Rogers. That much we know.
My question is: who bought the negatives when the government auctioned off Rogers' inventory?
Also, if Jim Rowe kept his Brace negatives, what happened to them? I thought he auctioned them thru Mastro's old auction house a few years ago, but I am not sure of that. Rowe had a huge inventory of Brace/Burke negatives and I am curious as to their fate. Did someone break the negatives up for resale.
Considering the historical value, MLB should have stepped in. It's not like they lack the resources.
lumberjack
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Old 10-30-2018, 06:00 PM
cubman1941 cubman1941 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecatspajamas View Post
The Jim Elder postcards did generally have the broader white border at the bottom, presumably allowing a wider margin for autographs (though most signed versions I have seen did not utilize it for such). While collectors may have themselves penned player identifications on the back, they were issued as the standard Kodak RPPC pre-printed back with a stamped number in the corner corresponding to Elder's catalog number for that particular player (see first example pic below, player signature added later). There were a total of 1400 postcards in the series, with some players having multiple poses (bearing the same sequential number printed on the back). Some of these also bear a secondary stamping with Elder's address (see second pic below) though most I have seen had only the stamped number. Also worth noting is that, while Jim Elder produced the postcards, he utilized negatives shot and provided to him by Norman Paulson. To my knowledge, Elder was not a photographer himself.

Paulson also produced RPPC's himself, though these typically bear his own stamping (including his "Baseball Photo Service" without mention of him personally), or no identification, on the rear. I have seen a few from his estate that had a similar, but slightly different style sequential numbering from the ones produced by Jim Elder, though I don't know if these had widespread distribution, or how many were in the series. Paulson seemed to market his photos primarily to the players themselves. (see third and fourth examples below) Like George Brace, Paulson got his start in basebally photography working with George Burke (primarily photographing minor league players) before branching out on his own. He also provided the images for the 1960 Leaf baseball card series, which may be more familiar to collectors.

The Jim Rowe postcards do not have the printed sequential numbering on the back, but do have a large block-lettered hand-penned identification of the player on each (see fifth example below). Most of the Rowe postcards seen floating around were produced using negatives shot by George Burke in the 1930's-40's which were loaned to Rowe by George Brace sometime in the 1950's-60's following Burke's death. The negatives were never returned to Brace, resulting in a lawsuit in later years which the Brace family unfortunately lost due to the original loan of material having no written documentation for the return of the material.

Then there are the George Brace postcards, which you did not ask about, but which are very similar. While Brace used his own negatives that he shot from the 1950's on (he was photographing baseball players into the early 1990's), his 1930's-1940's postcard images are largely from George Burke negatives as well. He also continued to produce reprints/restrikes from 2nd generation negatives that Burke had accumulated in an effort to compile a complete photographic record of major league baseball players, including those who were no longer active when he began photographing baseball in 1929. Brace frequently penned player identifications on the printed postcard side, as did Rowe, but his handwriting is different than Rowe's and typically consisted of a larger block-lettered last name, comma, somewhat more-scripted first name. (see sixth through eighth examples below) No sequential numbering on Brace's postcards either. As Brace got on in years, his daughter, Mary, took over the production side of the business, and similarly penned the names on the back, with her handwriting being somewhat different than either Brace or Rowe's. There are also blank-backed RPPC's that were produced by Mary Brace in later years which, while still using Kodak (I think) RPPC stock, do not bear the pre-printed postcard back due to a shift in Kodak's production of the photo stock and difficulty/expense in obtaining the same stock that they had used for decades of producing baseball player RPPC's. Other Brace family members also pitched in from time to time in print-production, which may account for further variations in handwriting, but there were certainly other producers of RPPC's using the same pre-printed Kodak stock which are not readily-identifiable as to where they originated.

As mentioned earlier, Joe McCarthy also produced baseball postcards, but these were primarily (perhaps exclusively) printed postcards, not RPPC's (real photo postcards), which were produced through traditional printing methods rather than being true photographic prints as with RPPC's. They can be distinguished by looking at the printed surface under high magnification, in which the printed postcards can be seen to have a regular series of dots and/or screened printing to produce the image, whereas true photographs will have a continuous range shifting from light to dark without a discernible pattern.

Thank you for all the information. I am printing it off to use to go through my postcards. I certainly appreciate all the information, the scanning and all your work work to help me.

Jim
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  #9  
Old 10-31-2018, 06:39 PM
whiteymet whiteymet is offline
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I am looking for a Paulson PC of Richie Ashburn if anyone out there has one please PM me.

Thanks!
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Old 11-01-2018, 09:52 PM
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thecatspajamas thecatspajamas is offline
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I am looking for a Paulson PC of Richie Ashburn if anyone out there has one please PM me.
There are actually 3 in the series of 1400 that were issued by Jim Elder. These are long-gone from my hands, but the scans may give you some idea of what to be on the lookout for:

Last edited by thecatspajamas; 11-01-2018 at 09:53 PM.
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