delete- (rambling thoughts thread)......have at it.....

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Posted By: Enright, Daniel

No Gil, again you are just wrong.
There are not more trees on this land than ever before.
Wherever concrete and brick and steel covers the earth, before - there were trees and plants and grasses.
Where fires used to burn huge swathes of land, those trees were GENETICALLY EVOLVED through NATURAL SELECTION to have seed waiting in the earth for just such events, and trees sprouted anew in near no time.

Firefighters? Well, who's going to argue firefighters are great? The rest is just mumbo jumbo.

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Posted By: barrysloate

But they pretty much contradict each other. That's like saying the earth is round but it is also square.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Actually for those who must know the answer - the internet was "invented" by the US government. More specifically by the US military as a means of communication in the event of a Russian nuclear attack on the US.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Josh- that sounds reasonable. It happened during the Clinton administration, so Gore must have been once of its first adherents. I think when he is asked about it, he doen't take credit for its invention. But he was one of the first to recognize its amazing potential.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Actually, while the internet as we know it took off during the Clinton Administration, the internet as the government knew it had been in development since the 50s or 60s and live since the late 60s early 70s.

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Posted By: John S

I was waiting for evolution to be mentioned. As you say Barry it amazing the amount of fear and anger (mostly in the USA, this is not a problem in most other countries) that is conjured by the mere word. My graduate area of training was animal behavior/ecology. My major was Biology/Environmental Policy. I teach in the public school system in Ohio, which is often not equated with the Bible belt. However, I have been verbally attacked over the last fifteen years by fellow students, parents, and my own students (most recently by a girl in May in my Env. Science course who told me I would rot in hell for teaching that the world was older than 5,000 years). Evolution is threatening to many, but it makes alot of sense to most people who are willing to attempt to understand the theory. God and Evolution are not mutaully exclusive (many creationists have insisted that there is no way that I can believe in both God and Evolution) as I am a very religious person as are many other scientists. To be quite honest, I have never tried to convert students or any other people, I am just teaching the science. I am a strong believer that each person is entitled to his/her beliefs. And Gil, I agree that the earth has the capacity to heal itself and will withstand industrialization, I just don't think that our species will be here to witness that healing.

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Posted By: barrysloate

John- My brother is the head of the biology department in a private school in California, and he has to deal with exactly the same issues. He has been told in no uncertain terms that he has to let the students know that there are other possible explanations to the theory of evolution, and he is privately very unhappy about it. And he teaches in a religious school (Jewish) so the pressure is even greater. I am not religious at all- I think the bible is a wonderful book that should be read and cherished by whomever wishes to do so, but I do not personally believe in it. And as much as I hate to say it, I don't think we are on this planet forever. Didn't Stephen Hawking just say that he only sees civilization lasting another 100 years or so. The world is very dangerous and we are destroying it in many ways. Might even be a good reason for everyone to sell their baseball cards before it is too late.

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Posted By: dd

Inmy profession, which has been historically based on science, science has been all but disregarded. Primarily my job is to take care of patients, but I am in a constant battle to "take care" of insurance companies, drug companies, hospitals, attorneys, employers, etc. who act as though their interest supercede those of my patients. When the hard science of a certain drug or treatment takes a backseat to its cost, lobbyist interest, insurance contracts, competitor sponsored "studies", etc. the patients suffer.

Our "standards of care" (in medicine)are not based on true science unless of course you consider economics a true science. Our people are on more pharmaceuticals, have more tests, and suffer more than ever before. This is driven by physicians who feel the need to keep patients ill to maintain their incomes. There is essentially no economic incentive to keep patients healthy in this environment. Sad but true.

The problem with this country is no secret...we are run by big business(religion is big business, too).

My personal belief....any physician who buys in is going staight to the center of hell.

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Posted By: Enright, Daniel

Hey Barry, to tie in multiple threads.......
As I don't plan on selling my baseball cards, and will strictly forbid their sale for at least 2 generations in my will ( wish I knew how to put in proper smily faces), I'm wondering if I could get the grading card companies to list my name on the flip as "The enright collection - last to ever own this card!". As paper will survive quite an increase in the earth's temperature, I'm thinking I could live in perpetuity in the provenance.......

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hey Daniel- not a bad idea, you could give it a try. And for Darren, I made an observation just the other day. As I am someone who probably spends a little too much time in front of the TV, I've noticed just an endless number of commercials for prescription medication. That is something that you never saw a few years ago. How many zillions are these pharmaceutical companies making? I hear terrible stories about doctors who are pressured to write prescriptions for drugs that aren't necessarily best but they are forced to by the drug companies, pretty much what you are saying.

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Posted By: PStratton

I vote for a monthly "delete" thread. Doc's comments are both enlightening and frightening. I think it takes a big pair to say what he said. I personally think those doctors who take advantage of their patients more monetary gain should be "teabagged".

Global warming, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Lebanon, etc...anyone want to buy my old trees(baseball cards) before it's too late.

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Posted By: Joann

Global Warming and the downfall of intellect:

Global Warming:

Gil - the theory is not just put out there on the basis of climatological statistics and observations of current temperature. Of course temp cycles go in millenia, and knowing what has happened in the last few hundred years does not reflect these long cycles. BUT. The mechanism for the temperature change has been both proven and demonstrated via chemistry and physics. That makes it different. It is not statistical speculation, it is the statistical projection of the results of a physically proven process. This thing is unfolding, not already here. It is an evolving process, not an event to wait for. Processes that develop slowly are marked by instances of forward and back, up and down, and either can be found in any particular place at different times. So observations that it is a hot summer are no more relevant than observations that the forestry industry seems ok. But none of that changes the fact that it is inevitable unless we change the processes that are causing it.

Daniel's profound words on the ruralization of America, the downplaying of science and intellect and the equality of opinions regardless of foundation:

Reminded me of this quote from H.L. Mencken. I believe it was in the 20's.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

Have at it guys!

Joann

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Oh, and Gil.
How many trees used to cover ground now cleared for agriculture?

Well may we rape the earth because we make choices that place our whims and lifestyles above all else.......lets just not bull**** about it along the way.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Daniel and dd, nicely put. You each have pieces of the puzzle. The problems with this country--ALL of them--should be placed squarely at the feet of the fascist pigs who have been in charge of it for the last six years: an unholy alliance of big business, big oil and religious zealots. The business lobbies have cleverly manipulated the religious masses with promises of social measures and idiotic "threats" like gay marriage (seems to me if you really want to stop homosexual acts, let them marry; marriage sure as hell stops heterosexual sex ) to ram through candidates who don't give a crap about them and who are only in place to fatten the wallets of their corporate sponsors. What has happened, as we all know, is that the country has been devastated through a regressive tax policy, ridiculous increases in corporate welfare, a backfired war, crippling increases in foreign debt and national debt as a result of conceptually flawed free trade ideas (you can't trade freely and fairly with a country that has slave labor camps and no effective commercial laws), repeals of critical environmental standards, and general incompetence and graft. IMHO the most important American value is the right to be left the *&*& alone except when absolutely necessary and the corresponding rights of freedom from government interference in matters of personal belief, religion, speech and privacy, and the pack of crooks and idiots running the government today regularly violate those core values. As far as religion and science go, I can understand our friends' amazement at the regressive, illogical thinking that so many espouse in this country. Ignorance, stupidity, xenophobia, racism, simplistic answers to complex questions, and pure wishful thinking about a golden past that never existed, all have ready audiences in the USA and always will. That they have been exploited so successfully for political gain (and will be so exploited in the future) is shameful. I fear for the future when I read cases like Hamdan (the recent Supreme Court ruling on the Gitmo kangaroo courts) and see any justices stand up for the shameful system in use there. Read The Gulag Archipelago by Solzhenitsyn; the courts set up at Gitmo by the Bush administration could be taken straight out of the Soviet playbook. No one wants to coddle terrorists, that's not what the objections to the treatment of the prisoners is about, despite the blather from noted junkie Rush and his ilk. Our country has at its core a respect for individuals and individual rights borne of experiences with totalitarian government (imperial England's Star Chamber, for example: Charles I used the Court of Star Chamber as Parliamentary substitute during the eleven years of Personal Rule, when he ruled without a Parliament. Charles I made extensive use of the Court of Star Chamber to prosecute dissenters, including the Puritans who fled to New England. In the Star Chamber the council could inflict any punishment short of death, and frequently sentenced objects of its wrath to the pillory, to whipping and to the cutting off of ears. With each embarrassment to arbitrary power the Star Chamber became emboldened to undertake further usurpation. The Star Chamber finally summoned juries before it for verdicts disagreeable to the government, and fined and imprisoned them.); we are not supposed to refuse people hearings where the evidence against them is presented and prevent anyone from saying otherwise. Scalia, Thomas and Alito ought to be ashamed of themselves for voting to allow these practices to continue.

And stop bidding up all the cards I want, damn it!

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

tell how us you really feel--I hate it when I have to read tea leaves to figure out where someone stands!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Was that one long sentence, or did I miss the punctuation? But as a kindred spirit, I'm as fed up as you are. So why do we keep putting these incompetent people in office? Don't we ever learn a lesson? Not to suggest anyone could correct all the problems we have today, but at least we know in two and a half years all these bozos will be gone. My worst fear is that there isn't anyone more competent to take their place, and that nobody will ever get us out of this absolutely worthless war in Iraq. This will go on even after Bush leaves office. And kids are getting killed and maimed for no reason whatsoever- no, I don't feel any safer having them over there. We aren't fighting terrorists, we are breeding them. There is more terrorism in the world today than in 2001, and with no end in sight. Very sad state of affairs. What's the solution? How about another tax break for the rich.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I'm just intersted in hooking up with one eyed, left handed, albino, midget, rastafarian eskimo that can trim a bansai tree.

Jay

Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

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Posted By: Eric B

If every person in the world would stand in a box 2 feet by 1 foot wide and 6 feet tall, you could stack the whole world in a cube with sides 3/4 of a mile long.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think you just found the answer to all the world's problems. Why didn't I think of that?

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Posted By: Max Weder

Eric

I'm 6' 4". What would happen to me in such a cube?

Max

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Posted By: PStratton

Gasonline? More like a nuke Warshawlaw. Wasn't it Clinton who opened up trade with China? ...and maybe if Slick had done his job when the WTC was bombed the first time then we wouldn't be where we are now. To be honest with you if the Democrats came up with some solutions they might actually win an election. Instead you have Nancy Pelosi using flag draped coffins of our soldiers in her friggin commerials. How sick is that?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

So, this is what could happen if Leon would let us go off topic. I agree that although most viewpoints and subjects are interesting, and of merit (especially that of Jay Behrens); this type of conversation is better left to a different forum.

Joann: thank you for a well thought out response. At no point was it my intent to convey that global warming is a false concept. Actually, my belief is that it is an unproven theory, and one that currently can not be proven. I do not believe, however, that laboratory simulations are necessarilly applicable to the real world. And simply verifying a mechanism does not establish that it is in play.

E, Daniel: I find your post devoid of fact and attempting to refute mine with an apparent labyrinth of seeds and asphalt seems pointless. However you did make one clear contention: "No Gil, again you are just wrong." My response is - when was I wrong before? And what am I wrong about now? If you disagree with my tree count, please identify yours, if it is something else, please say so.

Barry: A creator could include evolution in his plan. And just because things naturally evolve, it does not mean that there was not an initial source for all things.

Edited to remove an extra not

Whew. Where is Net 54? It is getting hot in here. Didn't I see another (available) Delete thread? Maybe that one can be my Fortress, and I can come here when I don't want Solitude.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I love you Adam and Barry, want to move to Mass. and get married? Oops, too late!

I agree with all you have written, and can't help but feel there is a chicken and the egg thing happening here on a sociological level - to have allowed this type of government, and keep it governing........
How is it that instead of wanting people smarter than themselves to make huge decisions on monumental historical paths, so many americans would prefer someone who sounds and understands these myriad issues no better than themselves?
And how do they sleep at night knowing good ole uncle geeeeorge is at the helm, who they've never heard speak an intelligible sentence in their life?
And I truly don't think I'm being all that political here - I would take anyone, anyone, from the Republican party over this bumbling yokel, and NEARLY anyone from the democrats.......

(Sorry Hillary, I just can't get a fix on what you really believe in....)

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Posted By: BcD

This should be a landmark thread for her to post a psychedelic novel on who knows what!

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Posted By: DJ

Most insteresting of threads...

1)



2) Former Can't Miss New York Yankees prospect Brien Taylor is 34 now, and he lives at the end of the road named for him, with his parents, Willie Ray and Bettie. The trailer he was raised in has been replaced with a two-story brick and frame home, the House that Brien Built with the record $1.55 million bonus he got from the Yankees. He also bought a black Mustang 5.0 back then, a car that is still on the road. Otherwise, evidence of his long-ago windfall is in scant supply on Brien Taylor Lane, where the cab of a tractor-trailer is sunk into marsh grass and vines, and the yard is strewn with old cars and a heap of rusted lawnmowers. Brien Taylor used to throw heat. Now he lays bricks, working with his father, earning $909 per month, according to financial records filed in a child-support application. He has five daughters and wants to live his life and prefers not to answer any questions, about then or now. When he finds out it's a reporter calling, he hangs up.

3) Polar bears in the southern Beaufort Sea may be turning to cannibalism because longer seasons without ice keep them from getting to their natural food, a new study by American and Canadian scientists has found. Environmentalists contend shrinking polar ice due to global warming may lead to the disappearance of polar bears before the end of the century.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BARRY S....old friend....I must correct your comments on your post (1:36 PM).

The Pentagon started inventing the "internet" in the 1980's as another "tool"
to fight the Commies in the old U-S-S-R.

Reagan brought down the the decadent Soviet Union (without firing a single bullet).
And, consequently, Russia and the Iron Curtain were freed during 1989 to 1991.

Clinton's presidency was Jan 1993 to Jan 2001....SO THE INTERNET WAS NOT INVENTED....
during the Clinton's term. And, Mr Gore had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Many, many hardware and software Engineers dilligently worked day and nite to
perfect it during the 1990's. However, if you feel it's necessary to attribute credit
to one individual, it is Bill Gates and Microsoft.

T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: Jeff Lowe

Reminds me of Ground Hog Day

Reminds me of Ground Hog Day

Reminds me of Ground Hog Day

Jeff

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Posted By: Steve M.

Daniel:

I think there are enough lawyers on the board who will tell you that your scheme is violative of the ancient and honored Rule Against Perpetuities.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Wow- I thought I said more inflammatory things that you would nail me on. Ted and I made a pact a few years ago not to talk politics, because we don't agree on almost anything. It's helped us stay good friends. But I accept your position here- I really didn't know who started the internet; I am learning all about it on this thread. What's most amazing is Leon still hasn't pulled the plug. I guess he is letting us all vent what's on our minds. One day a year I guess is fine.

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Posted By: Josh K.

T Rex - almost correct. They government started researching/creating the internet in the late 50s or early 60s. A far more primative version of the internet went live in the late 60s or early 70s.

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Posted By: jay behrens

if you need some humor, click on "Cell phones & car ads". This is not safe for work!!!

http://www.illwillpress.com/vault.html

Jay

Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Gil,

Whilst I thought I'd given a pretty clear picture of where more trees might have existed, and still be in existence, if not for major human intervention...I'll try again:

Every piece of ground covered in substances that a tree cannot grow on or through.
Every tree removed to create living space for ourselves.
Every tree removed to create goods that are consumed.
Every tree removed to clear ground for grazing.
Every tree removed for simple aesthetic choice when landscaping homes and city-scapes.
And I'll find a tree hugger if I must to improve my list!!

If you don't believe this to have occured, please explain your thoughts.
Being rude in an aside to me hardly covers your thinking with glory.

And instead, I presume from what you write that you are suggesting enormous forrestation has occured or been encouraged by mankind and womankind, or maybe just those gladiator firefighters....perhaps you can name the forrests that have been created (and not those merely grown as a cash crop to be cut down as woodchip in 3 years in Thailand), or give me any idea at all on how you came to your own conclusion?

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Posted By: barrysloate

If you want to talk about trees and forests being destroyed, let's not forget our precious rainforests which are disappearing too.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Being rude in an aside to me hardly covers your thinking with glory.

What does this refer to?

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Posted By: Bob

I am leaving strict instrictions in my will to forbid my widow from selling any of my caramel cards to:
1) Anyone who doesn't believe global warming is happening;
2) Anyone who drives in the left (passing lane) and refuses to yield to faster moving traffic;
3) Any relative of Drew Pearson and James Street who collectively shattered my heart and stole the joy from what would have become the two greatest sporting momements of my life (the Hail Mary pass against my Vikes and the loss of a football national champioship for the Razorbacks in The Big Shootout in 1969); and
4) Anyone who calls me "dumb" for remembering and posting Otter's classic comment in Animal House about a girl he know at Faber College having "major league yabbos."

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Far be it from me to tell you how to "moderate" this Forum. But, when you give
free reign to "political" bashing as in this format (as I perceive going on in this
Thread); then, future On Topic discussions will never again be maintained at
the high level as we have enjoyed in the past.

There will, inevitably be "negative" debates between some members, not because of
the substance of their topic, but because of the perceived hidden "political agenda"
of a given person. Up until today, I did not know (or care) of one's political leanings
on this Forum. I was only interested in what they had to contributed to our knowledge
of Vintage BB cards and collectibles.

I end by saying this Thread has "opened up a Pandora's Box" which I hope does not
affect this Forum deliteriously in the months to come.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

'E, Daniel: I find your post devoid of fact and attempting to refute mine with an apparent labyrinth of seeds and asphalt seems pointless.'

You mean to tell me in my entire diatribe, there was not even ONE fact...?
I mean, I signed my name correctly at the bottom and all...........

But you're correct, your aside to me was far more sanctimonious than rude - so I apologize for the descriptor.

And as for wrong, that firefighters have somehow enabled more trees to be in existence today - because they fight fires, is simply, wrong.
And if you don't believe that trees regenerate by having their seeds germinate in particular conditions - notably after a fire, again you are wrong.
And if ashphalt and concrete do not currently cover land that would otherwise have trees growing on it, again, you are wrong.

And to just describe my arguments as pointless, well, that's just plainly wrong!



Sincerely
Daniel


Ps: Oh, and in my native land, the aboriginal people - a truly noble race of extraordinary people - have been using burn-off techniques to control the bush and prevent raging forrest fires for 40,000 years.
But of course, you would need to believe them I guess, and that can be hard for western cultures who feel their religious beliefs give them ownership of the creation debate.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I predict the board will be back to normal tomorrow, like nothing ever happened. This is a one shot deal, I'm guessing, so everybody who has anything to say, get in today while the going is good. I know Leon well enough to know this is not going to be a regular feature. He's letting us out of the asylum for the day, but we have to be back at sundown (The King of Hearts?)

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Posted By: PC

This board has degenerated into the tiresome "Dems blaming it on the Repubs" tirade. yawn But if an idyllic liberal anything-goes society is what you crave, look no further than Western Europe -- but you had better look now, because at the current declining population and productivity rates, it will be a very different Europe in the coming decades. (The recent riots in France are only the beginning -- what's next? A collapse of the social system in Denmark in the coming years appears inevitable ... but that's perhaps even too far OT for this thread.)

But the good news is that Al Gore probably has the answers (at least he thinks he does).

And I learn something new every day on this board. Previously, I thought global warming was a long-term irreversible natural climactic change. You know, an ice age on one end of the spectrum and oceanfront property in Pennsylvania on the other. I hadn't realized that it's the fault of bible-beating midwest Republicans, driving all over the place cutting down trees. Perhaps they should pay reparations to the Aussies for causing all that melonoma. However, the bright side is that we now know that our ancestors can prevent the next ice age by actually cutting down trees and consuming fossil fuels, or at the very least by voting Democratic. What a relief!

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think you are interpreting the threads on this board rather arbitrarily. There have been many different points made, you have chosen to mix them up to fit your own personal agenda.

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Posted By: dd

I'm not a racist or sexist, I dislike all people equally; and I'm perfectly happy being miserable.

Thanks to Big Tobacco and Evil Sugar for creating bb cards.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Just think about how many people had to die just so someone could complete a T206 set.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Well pcreaven,

You're kind of right about one thing.....there is undoubtedly a 'natural' cycle for the earth warming and cooling that has nothing to do with us as humans and our interventions.
The only problem is - that the natural cycle would take 100 thousand years to accomplish what we have set up and are conitinuing to do in the next 200 years.......minus an asteroid or two....
So, If you don't really care what happens after you're dead then you're ok with our current path.
If it really bothers you that future generations, as in your kids, their kids, and their kids, will all have drastically different lives because of what we are doing to the environment - then it's not o.k wer're on this path - and we shouldn't enable our leaders to foul further the pot.

Oh, and your shot about Australia.
Take it for a Yank to belittle a country that has hung itself out to dry alongside your nation in this 'war on terror'....as so very few others have been want to do.
No worries mate, we'll keep that in mind the next time round when you're trying to count your friends in the international community.

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Posted By: PC

Yes, of course, it's my fault. I wasn't aware that I was mixed-up and being arbitrary, but it must be the case. But if you can tell me what my agenda is I would appreciate it, becasue I wasn't aware I had one, and if I did, perhaps it was lost amidst all the obvious agenda-exposure in the above threads.

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Posted By: joe brennan

In a war between France and England one of the main forces of the army was the archer. Everytime an archer was captured by England, they would cut off his middle finger, thus he was no longer any good as an archer. When the two armies squared of in the field, the French archers would show the English their middle finger. Flaunting them with the finger, hence giving someone the finger. Just my rambling thought on a most interesting thread. Joe

A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.

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Posted By: V117Collector

Q: Do You Think' society is changing for the worst?

Note:

The more you watch TV
And follow' trends,
The quicker you'll get it in THE END!




No responds necessary!!!

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Posted By: martindl

Ted,
I don't think this thread, or peoples views, will have much if any impact on the regular goings on on here. Theres been a smattering of vintage talk (I tried with M Supplements - oh well)and if a lot of people are like me, they just skipped the political and tree stuff and went their merry way.

Martin

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't think this thread is Republican or Democrat bashing, although there is an element of it. It's about this country having bad policies for a very long time and now we are paying the price for it, and paying dearly. I would never ever support terrorism but I certainly understand why other countries hate us so much. And the current administration, who do happen to be Republicans, is taking a bad situation and pouring gasoline on it and making it worse. Global warming is a real fact and our leaders practically ignore it because addressing it is bad for big business. I could go on and on, but I've posted too much today as it is.

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Posted By: Cobby33

It's not about the "Dems" blaming the GOP or vice-versa. ALL PARTIES are at fault for the misdeeds in this world, whether it be global warming, war, poverty, etc. Some parties have more culpability in certain areas, but each are probably equally to blame.

Both parties in the US have the relative power to better this society and assist in bettering the world, but obviously that isn't a priority. (As Barry points out, the GOP is "in power" now, so some accountability would be nice).

We can go on for 10,000 more posts debating what the priorities are, but just look out your window and read the newspaper and you'll see the sorry state of affairs which are affecting human beings, animals and the earth and anybody who "blames" the "Dems" or whomever is either blind or completely uninformed.

Now who's going to sell me a T215 Pirate back?

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Posted By: Joe Jones

D cards are soooo Purdy