1991 Topps / DS Packaging

[Zach Wheat]

I was curious to see if anyone had information about the packaging on both the 1991 regular issues cards as well as DS packs. 1991 was supposed to be the first year Topps introduced all plastic wrapping. I suspect they used both wax paper wrapping and then switched midstream.

However, all the DS packs I have (perhaps 12) all have wax paper wrapping. Youtube videos of people unwrapping 1991 regular issue packs appear to show all plastic wrapping; opening DS packs appears to show wax paper wrapping. Admittedly, I have not gone through all of the videos. I always assumed Desert Shield packs were made at the end of the 1991 print run. If that was the case why wouldn't they be all plastic?

Got me curious now - check your collection of unwrapped packs & please chime in with what you have or what you know about packs! Thanks

Z Wheat

[ALR-bishop]

Zach---I think ( not sure) it was in 1991 that Topps switched to plastic from wax, and did it during the year, so that for the regular cards, both wax and plastic packs can be found. I have 4 unopened boxes ( to get a full set of the box panel cards and because there were older cards in inserted in 91 packs). All 4 boxes are wax. I bought them early.

I have a set of the DS cards and what I believe is one unopened pack ( bought from a reputable dealer). It is wax. If someone knows a sure fire way to tell if it is a DS pack or not, would be happy to try and verify

[tulsaboy]

I have boxes and loose packs of both wax and cellophane. Have no idea about the DS cards. But I know that at some point mid year here in Oklahoma we started seeing the cellophane ones. Not near as much fun to open.

[cincyredlegs]

My understanding is there is no way to distinguish from a regular 91 Topps wax pack and a DS pack. The only sure fire way is to open it.

Mark

[Zach Wheat]

There actually is a way to eliminate it as a regular issue 1991 Topps pack; however, there is no way to conclusively prove it is a DS pack with certainty. They used 2 types of ink in the production run that are similar but not identical.

Z Wheat

[ALR-bishop]

Zach--If there is a way to eliminate it as a a regular pack, what would be left besides a DS pack ? Possible counterfeit ? In know there is different printing/ink on many 91 cards, is the same true of the packs ?

[Zach Wheat]

Most of the 1991 Topps cards were printed with 2 different variations of one of the colors of ink. There was a previous post on Net54 which noted this, but I can't seem to find the original post.

Most - but not all - of the Desert Shield cards I've checked were printed with only 1 variation of this ink. The ink is actually visible - and distinguishable from the other type of ink - through the packaging. It is hard to pick up but you can clearly make out the differences.

This does not eliminate packs that aren't Desert Shield packs entirely, but greatly reduces the chances of picking up a regular issue pack. I just scanned 140 DS cards and only 2 cards had the earlier version of ink.

Z Wheat

[ALR-bishop]

Ok, so you are scanning for the cards themselves, not the pack itself ?

[Zach Wheat]

Yes, correct. You can see the ink under certain conditions through the wrapper which means that there is a correspondingly greater or lesser chance that the pack contains DS cards.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Yes, correct. You can see the ink under certain conditions through the wrapper which means that there is a correspondingly greater or lesser chance that the pack contains DS cards.

I have 3 DS printing error cards and would like the ink info if you would share it. I looked at mine under "certain conditions" and they are the bright orange/red compared to the burgundy color of some regular issue cards.

The ink on the regular 91's are strange. Some glow on the back some do not and some glow on the front and some do not. The strange part is they can be any combination of front/back glowing not glowing under a BL. I even found a few that the whole front of the card glows, not just the yellow.

[4reals]

Ben, what Mr. Wheat is referring to is the reflective red "glow" ink used on the back of some of the 91 Topps cards. If you shine a black light on the back of regular 91 Topps cards you will find some that glow and some that do not. This is from two different types of ink used during the printing process. I know you're somewhat aware of this from your 91 Topps Nolan Ryan post back in November. I first learned about this variation (some may argue that definition) after reading an unsuspecting post made by Steve B years ago. It was glossed over at the time (at least no one replied to it) but it surely caught my eye. I literally became obsessed with understanding which cards it affected and which cards it did not, researching it for the last couple of years, buying thousands and thousands of 91 cards, breaking different product from different packaging. Last September I bought a house and packed away all that product away and haven't unpacked it since (on purpose). Taking a break from it snapped me out of the OCD spiral I was in. I'm done researching it...it's time to share what I learned and pass the baton, letting others run with it. Zach was one of the first I decided to share this glow ink info with, which I did recently after reading his passion for DS cards.

All of that back story to tell you this, one of the most important nuggets of info I discovered was that ALL 91 DS cards were printed with glow reflective ink. In my opinion this was a huge discovery because of the existing problem with counterfeit DS cards. If you shine a blacklight on the back of a DS card and it does not glow it would mean (in my unprofessional opinion) that it is a counterfeit. Having said that, one must keep in mind that this is not a fool proof way of eliminating all counterfeits because a counterfeiter may also use a regular 91 Topps card with glow ink to make a counterfeit. It is at least a new way to weed some of the counterfeits out.

So, hopefully Zach doesn't mind me speaking for him when I say, that's what he meant when he said...

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Most - but not all - of the Desert Shield cards I've checked were printed with only 1 variation of this ink. The ink is actually visible - and distinguishable from the other type of ink - through the packaging. It is hard to pick up but you can clearly make out the differences.

This does not eliminate packs that aren't Desert Shield packs entirely, but greatly reduces the chances of picking up a regular issue pack.

When I have more time I will start a 1991 Topps Glow thread and reveal many more of my findings in detail along with a master checklist I created. It has grown quite big when you consider the compound variations of errors, sheet codes, and the bold and faint logo on the back.

Here's a pic

[ALR-bishop]

I have a Desert Shield set, and they do all glow. And I can confirm I have both glow and non glow cards in my regular 91 set.

I have mentioned before that I think the 1991 set has more variations and or print defects than any other Topps set by far. At one time I was thinking of trying to put together a true master set and checklist, but have given up. I think I do have all the bold 40 emblem cards and many of the front and back differences. But am not sure precisely how many of the cards can be found with glow ink or if the entire set can be made in all non glow ink. Nor did I get very far on the back sheet page code variants.

If someone out there has what they think is a complete master checklist, I would love to see it

[Zach Wheat]

Joe,

Thanks for responding. I really wanted you to chime in on this topic before going further. First Ben has indicated some of the fronts glow - which I had never checked before - in both sets. A new discovery every day.

Second, I will have to re-check my results on the DS set as both Sheet A & Sheet B are different than the other sheets, but I don't think all DS cards flouresce under black light. I think the majority of the cards flouresce - ie maybe 95%, but not all.

I believe most of the way through the print run for 1991 Topps cards, they switched inks and added a brightener to the orange ink and probably other colors as well. The brightener enhanced orange ink is most obvious (under UV light) around the 40th Anniversary logo on the perimeter orange box on the reverse of the cards. And yes you can detect the differences in the ink through the back of the wrapper. This importance of this, is that it should allow you to reduce the probability of obtaining a fake DS pack.

I will chime back in later with a more details on flourescing ink on DS cards.

Z Wheat

[ALR-bishop]

I admit I did not check every card in the my DS set. I have them in sheets in a binder and sampled every couple of pages through out. The ones I looked at all glowed. I tried to check the unopened pack I keep with that set but can not view the back of the card clearly through the wrapper to see it under a black light

[steve B]

Thanks for posting a picture! I've been needing to take one for a long time now, and just never did get to it.

And good to know the DS only come one way.

Also good to know the old post got people looking.

91Topps is a massively complex set. I got partway through making a list of the stuff I found, then got sidetracked. The backs come a number of ways beyond the dark/light logo fluorescent/non fluorescent stuff.

I believe all the cards will come with.
Light logo fluorescent
light logo non fluorescent

And that all the dark logo cards can also be found both ways.

The tougher ones are less clear.
There's a version of ink which is slightly fluorescent, appearing a very dark red under a blacklight. I've only found a few, and the look is subtle enough to miss. I think the whole set can be found this way, but I don't have enough cards to be sure. The light I used at the time was a fairly strong dual band one made for stamp collectors. I'm not sure if the lower power lights will make it visible. I've switched to a lower power light since the big one is broken and costs around $150 to replace. The big light was enough to easily see the normal difference without the room being dark an overcast day was plenty.

On a handful, the cardboard itself fluoresces, usually a light purplish white. It's not entirely consistent, and I have few enough of those that I can't rule out some sort of contamination or staining. Either could happen after production, or during printing or even in the cardboard making process.

I haven't looked at the fronts much at all with the blacklight.
But I have a couple cards where the glosscoat fluoresces a faint green.


Playing with the blacklight can be loads of fun, but anyone doing it should limit their exposure. It's not great for the eyes, and for some people longer exposure can cause headaches.

Originally Posted by 4reals

Ben, what Mr. Wheat is referring to is the reflective red "glow" ink used on the back of some of the 91 Topps cards. If you shine a black light on the back of regular 91 Topps cards you will find some that glow and some that do not. This is from two different types of ink used during the printing process. I know you're somewhat aware of this from your 91 Topps Nolan Ryan post back in November. I first learned about this variation (some may argue that definition) after reading an unsuspecting post made by Steve B years ago. It was glossed over at the time (at least no one replied to it) but it surely caught my eye. I literally became obsessed with understanding which cards it affected and which cards it did not, researching it for the last couple of years, buying thousands and thousands of 91 cards, breaking different product from different packaging. Last September I bought a house and packed away all that product away and haven't unpacked it since (on purpose). Taking a break from it snapped me out of the OCD spiral I was in. I'm done researching it...it's time to share what I learned and pass the baton, letting others run with it. Zach was one of the first I decided to share this glow ink info with, which I did recently after reading his passion for DS cards.

All of that back story to tell you this, one of the most important nuggets of info I discovered was that ALL 91 DS cards were printed with glow reflective ink. In my opinion this was a huge discovery because of the existing problem with counterfeit DS cards. If you shine a blacklight on the back of a DS card and it does not glow it would mean (in my unprofessional opinion) that it is a counterfeit. Having said that, one must keep in mind that this is not a fool proof way of eliminating all counterfeits because a counterfeiter may also use a regular 91 Topps card with glow ink to make a counterfeit. It is at least a new way to weed some of the counterfeits out.

So, hopefully Zach doesn't mind me speaking for him when I say, that's what he meant when he said...





When I have more time I will start a 1991 Topps Glow thread and reveal many more of my findings in detail along with a master checklist I created. It has grown quite big when you consider the compound variations of errors, sheet codes, and the bold and faint logo on the back.

Here's a pic

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I admit I did not check every card in the my DS set. I have them in sheets in a binder and sampled every couple of pages through out. The ones I looked at all glowed. I tried to check the unopened pack I keep with that set but can not view the back of the card clearly through the wrapper to see it under a black light

Al,

Check the back of the pack wrapper on the border where the packaging is white. Your black light might not be strong enough to make the ink glow - but on all of my packs I can clearly see the orange ink fluorescing in this area of the pack. Or maybe try a room that is completely dark as well.

Z Wheat

[bnorth]

I still have some of the regular 91 wax boxes and they all glowed under BL.

[4reals]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I think I do have all the bold 40 emblem cards and many of the front and back differences. But am not sure precisely how many of the cards can be found with glow ink or if the entire set can be made in all non glow ink.

I have put together both a complete glow set and a complete non-glow set without bold back logos. Bold back logos were found only on A & B sheet cards. Putting together a glow set is the easier of the two because I also found in my research that every factory set I purchased (approx. 10) had only glow back cards. Perhaps others can check their 91 factory sets as well to confirm this. In my opinion this would mean a much smaller number of non-glow sets exist since they would have to be put together by hand. While non glow sets may be in smaller quantities than the glow sets, I have not found that to be the case with singles obtained through packaged product (packs). I have gone through a ton of rack packs, cello packs, wax packs, vending boxes, etc. and found that the glow backs outnumbered the non-glow backs by about 60-40.

I have also put together a complete non-glow set with bold back logos. I am, however, still missing some glow back/bold back cards leaving that set incomplete. I am 100% confident they exist I just haven't come across a few of them. In the 20,000+ 91s I've obtained I have about twice as many non-glow bold backs as I do glow bold backs. This leads me to believe the glow back bold back cards are the most difficult to obtain.

The glow back / bold back cards that still need to be confirmed are:

#144, 271, 502, 505, 532, 542, 546, 563, 564, 574, 591, 610, 667, 671, 727, 746, 768, 774, 783, 792.

I think it's weird these are all in the upper portion of the set. What likely happened is that I have them but I misplaced them in a pile of cards or misfiled them or something. Nevertheless, they're unconfirmed. If anyone has duplicates of these and wants to put together their own set I would be happy to trade with them.

I'm not going to start a new thread like I mentioned before, I'll just keep adding more info on this one since the momentum is moving pretty good.

Here's a pic of bold logo backs vs. non-bold logo or faint (screened) logo backs:

Bio boxes on back can also be found in red or a faint pink but they have no distinct correlation to sheet codes like the 40 logo, it's just a random print abnormality. I chose not to include them on the master set list I created which I'll make available to everyone once I fine tune it a little.

[4reals]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I still have some of the regular 91 wax boxes and they all glowed under BL.

I found that the wax packs that contained glow ink cards had half of the pack that glowed and half that did not. They were collated in the packs based on sheet codes and the glow ink cards would be consistent with the same two sheets throughout the entire box. For instance Ben, if you opened one of those boxes, while A&B sheet cards might glow throughout the entire box, C-F sheet cards will not. Or if E-F sheet cards glow throughout the entire box, A-D will not. The rack packs I opened were slightly different in that the first two sections contained cards from sheets C-F and glowed but the third section contained bold back cards from sheets A-B and did not glow. Vending boxes contained either all glow or all non-glow. Non-glow was more prevalent by about 80-20 in the ones I obtained.

Here's some pics of a rack pack containing glow ink cards with a section of non-glow back/bold backs in the far right section:

[bnorth]

Great info everyone, thanks for sharing. Here is a little more info on my experience. I bought about 1 case worth of wax boxes over maybe a 4-6 week period. All the boxes I have left(8) glow. I did not get any of the bold backs and only about 10% of the cards I have glow on the backs.
Here are the pics of my 3 DS print error cards. The Jose Rijo is my favorite.

[ALR-bishop]

Great info Joe. I am glad though it is you living that alternate reality

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by 4reals

I have put together both a complete glow set and a complete non-glow set without bold back logos. Bold back logos were found only on A & B sheets............This leads me to believe the glow back bold back cards are the most difficult to obtain.

Joe,

The DS set is different but you've mentioned an important point. Sheets A & B have the bold 40th Anniversary logos....and sheets C-F have the faint version of the same logo. However, the DS set is consistent with your comments above that the rarest cards come with a bold logo (ie sheets A and B); however the faint variation or non glowing back is the rarest in the DS set.

Oddly, I have a hybrid card which happens to be the Chipper Jones card which first spurred your initial email to me. It is a Sheet F card, like all Chipper Jones cards, with both glowing and non-glowing portions of the Anniversary logo.

Z Wheat

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

This is an absolutely fascinating thread. I didn't even know about the Bold back cards, nevermind the Glow back cards. Thanks to everyone for sharing the info.

[ALR-bishop]

Darn. Now Arthur knows.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Don't worry, I'm pretty sure I'll forget in about 48 hours and then rediscover this thread in a year and bump it back up with a post eerily similar to my previous one.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

Don't worry, I'm pretty sure I'll forget in about 48 hours and then rediscover this thread in a year and bump it back up with a post eerily similar to my previous one.

I do this as well. As an FYI Arthur, the sheet codes are detailed on the reverse of the card, near the copyright info...and read A-F.

Z Wheat

[bnorth]

A shameless plug. I put the Lance Parish and Karl Rhodes DS print errors in the live auction section. Might consider outrageous offers for the Jose Rijo.

[4reals]

Here is a quick number list for all the cards found on sheets A&B in the set, each one of these card numbers can be found with and without bold logos on the back as well as with and without "glow" ink, keep in mind that doesn't include sheet code variations or boring ol published errors :

10,13,28,29,30,35,36,37,44,47,48,50,51,52,54,62,63 ,66,69,72,76,80,82,83,85,86,90,94,95,96,98,
100,105,114,120,123,134,139,144,145,147,153,155,16 2,163,164,168,170,173,175,177,178,183,
186,187,188,190,192,193,195,199,202,206,208,212,21 3,214,216,217,218,220,222,223,232,235,
237,240,242,244,245,247,248,249,250,252,257,262,26 5,267,268,270,271,272,276,282,284,285,
290,293,295,297,298,302,305,307,312,314,317,319,32 0,322,324,327,328,336,343,345,350,352,
357,360,362,370,372,373,377,378,382,384,385,409,41 3,415,418,420,421,422,424,431,432,435,
440,445,447,448,450,452,454,461,463,468,469,470,47 5,476,478,479,480,481,482,483,485,490,
494,496,502,505,509,511,513,522,524,532,535,538,54 1,542,544,546,547,548,552,556,558,561,
563,564,565,571,574,580,582,583,584,587,591,595,59 7,598,610,617,621,622,624,642,644,647,
648,650,653,655,660,664,667,671,672,675,677,682,68 3,686,690,695,698,709,710,715,716,717,
718,719,722,724,727,728,731,732,736,738,746,755,75 6,758,763,768,773,774,781,782,783,785,
788,791,792

*************************

Here is a quick reference list to all the card numbers that have sheet code variations:

5,9,13,54,63,72,76,83,87,120,123,124,153,155,170,1 77,178,190,192,193,213,216,223,233,237,
242,248,250,265,270,272,284,290,297,312,314,317,34 5,382,384,422,440,452,454,459,463,475,
478,480,481,509,532,538,584,595,610,622,642,644,65 0,664,667,676,677,696,716,718,756,781,
783,785

Cards with an A* designation can also be found with an A*B* designation. Cards with an F* designation can also be found with an E*F* designation. Note that A*B* variations are more difficult to find than A* variations and F* variations are more difficult to find than E*F* variations.

There are a few exceptions. #9 has an F* variation but what probably should've been the E*F* variation actually has NO print code at all. #124 has a D* variation and a NO CODE variation. #459 is the only number known to have three sheet code variations with an A*, B*, and A*B* variation.

Lastly, there are three cards that scored a hat trick, that is, they have the bold variations, the sheet code variations and listed errors. Add glow and non-glow to that and they have a whopping 16 possible variations! How many exist is still unconfirmed, I'm still working on that part but at least having this info in hand will allow those of you living in the North and East to dig through your old commons while you're all snowed in (thinking of you from sunny socal)! They are #s 155, 270, and 454.

[ALR-bishop]

I have the bold/not bold "sets" on your first list, but only a couple on the code list , and have decided not to pursue them at this point.

[4reals]

I can understand that Al, sheet code variations do open an unnecessary door for many collectors. Especially since they exist in more sets than most of us realize. If you pursue them in one set you're almost obligating yourself to look for them in the rest. That would be a arduous task if you ask me. You've got to draw the line somewhere, right? I do think, however, they should be added to the master list considering they are actual variations and not just printing anomalies.

[ALR-bishop]

I agree they are true variations

[Zach Wheat]

It has to be a little confusing referencing 2 sets in the same thread....so my apologies in advance.

Joe/Al I have gone through approx. 1,600 Desert Shield cards looking for the "non-glow" backs and have only found 5. In addition, I have found them for every sheet except for Sheet A.

This equates to 0.31% or about a third of 1% - so fairly scarce. I doubt anyone will pay for this scarcity though....

Z Wheat

[4reals]

...or you found 5 counterfeits out of 1,600

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by 4reals

...or you found 5 counterfeits out of 1,600

Yes, I thought of that.....but by now I am pretty good at picking up legit cards and their logos. None of them are stars and the logos look fine. The cards are legit.

Z Wheat

[4reals]

That is interesting if indeed they are legit. Since you have an example from all but one sheet it is conceivable to believe all sheets were covered meaning if someone tried hard enough and spent enough money a glow and non glow DS set could be constructed. I dare you to try...lol

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by 4reals

That is interesting if indeed they are legit. Since you have an example from all but one sheet it is conceivable to believe all sheets were covered meaning if someone tried hard enough and spent enough money a glow and non glow DS set could be constructed. I dare you to try...lol

Well if the 1992 Sun Sentinel article originally referenced in the 1st 1991 Topps DS thread is accurate - and this is supported by comment by the Topps Spokesperson at the time (Timm Boyle) who indicated a production of 5,400,000 cards or 6,818 sets and the current non-glow back percentages apply, there would only be 21 "non-glow" backs of each card.

Timm Boyle also mentioned that they assumed only a third to half of their production actually made it back to the US - including the large shipment of 1,500,000 cards sent back to Myrtle Beach after the conclusion of Desert Shield (and the start of Desert Storm), then there can't be many of each card. Completing a full set of non-glow back DS cards would be achievable but probably not realistic within the normal realm of possibilities.

Z Wheat

[Zach Wheat]

By the way, I contacted Timm Boyle after he left Topps regarding the accuracy of the production figures or any other information he could provide - but he did not respond.

Therefore, the best estimates for the production of the Desert Shield set is stuck at the 5,400,000 mark.


Z Wheat

[Zach Wheat]

OK guys, I realize this is kind of lame - responding to your own post, not once but twice - before anyone else responds. However, I have gone over 4,970 cards and have found 8 non-glow back DS cards. I am about halfway done. I guess I have more DS cards than I thought. Sigh...

Noteworthy is that 1 card is a fake. A pretty good fake - but a fake nevertheless. There is a lot of confusing information out there on fakes so I thought I would post a JPEG with details on why it is a fake for educational purposes. The main tell tale sign is the tip of the palm leaf does comes down between the E & R of "Operation" and the stars in the flag are fuzzy. The gold embossing is not as sharp as on a true DS card and the card happens to be of Wade Boggs on Sheet A. As we have discussed many times before Sheet A DS cards have a bold "40th Anniversary" logo; this card doesn't and is clearly a variation of the regular 1991 Topps issue. The faker just used the wrong variation of 1991 card. The card is clearly a fake.


Zach Wheat

[ALR-bishop]

... is probably being monitored by NSA in belief that Zach and Joe are sending coded messages to each other, or maybe Zach to himself

[Zach Wheat]

[4reals]

What if DS cards were actually used as a vessel to distribute tactical information on the battlefield? Soldiers spoke to each other in code using the stats on the backs of the cards...and reflective ink was used so they could view the cards in the dark with their night vision glasses...and, whoa, look at all the pretty colors...why is everything moving in slow motion?

[Zach Wheat]

Hmmm.....my keen sense of self-awareness tells me I am being mocked.

Ok, here is the almost final tally. I found 16 non-glow back cards out of approx. 8,000 reviewed. This results in approx. 0.2% of cards being the non-glow back variety. I have access to, but did not include the 11 full sheets of DS cards as they are stored securely in a flat sealed container. Upon review I realized the bulk of the non-glow back cards came from 3 acquisitions made from soldiers that were assigned overseas. Still trying to figure that odd connection out. Sorry Joe, no Dodgers.

And all true DS checklists were of the "glow" variety.

And to respond to an earlier private email re: fake logo's, the above posts assume that most - even Arthur - can pick out the obvious fake logo's. (sorry Arthur, Al put me up to it). The main variety of fakes being shields too wide, shields that are pointy at the bottom, etc. A forger has figured out a way to accurately emboss the gold/silver logo on these cards - and the only major difference I see is that the palm tree is shifted slightly to the left. Other minor differences were previously described in that the embossing is fuzzy and you can't make out the stars in the flag, etc.


Z Wheat

[ALR-bishop]

.....certainly is sorry

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Zach, I assure you, never assume I'll be able to figure anything out. Al knows this.

And thank you for all the information in your posts. I just hope I remember where they are when I go to look for them in a few months.

[ALR-bishop]

This has been a great thread. Great info. Thanks to both Zach and Joe