PSA Guarantee on a doctored card

[raulus]

Many of you are no doubt familiar with my 54T Mays in PSA 8.5 that was previously identified by the BODA team as being doctored. You can see those deets here:

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=8106

And the previous N54 thread here:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=2374138

So I recently sent this very card in to PSA for them to check it out under their quality assurance review. The whole idea being that under their guarantee, if it has indeed been doctored, then PSA has the distinct pleasure of honoring their guarantee by writing me a big check to compensate me for buying a doctored card.

I'm happy to report that they have now concluded their review, although I'm less happy with the results. They sent me this email earlier today (I've eliminated his name to avoid potential issues there):

"My name is [name], I'm a specialist with PSA Customer Relations.
I am emailing you regarding your Quality Assurance Review Submission, which we are working on getting back to you.

Your card was reviewed by our Director of Grading who confirms the Authenticity and grade of the card.
We will have your card sent back to you via FedEx overnight by tomorrow at the latest.

This email is being sent to you as a courtesy and no response is needed from your end. Do not hesitate to contact us if you need anything or further clarification.

We thank you for your patience and understanding."

I emailed back to inquire whether they would be including any additional documentation, and he responded as follows:

"Unfortunately PSA does not include a certificate of authenticity, however the fact that the card has been sent to us and is being sent back to you with the cert number still intact (not deactivated) should be proof enough that the card is most certainly authentic."

So there you have it. Apparently BODA was wrong, and I can sleep well at night knowing that PSA stands behind their original grade. No doubt about it.

[ullmandds]

so basically the modifications were/are undetectable?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

so basically the modifications were/are undetectable?

Something like that seems to be their assertion, at least the way I'm reading between the lines.

[parkplace33]

I’m having a hard judging the tone of this post. Are you now comfortable with this card in your registry and collection?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by raulus

Many of you are no doubt familiar with my 54T Mays in PSA 8.5 that was previously identified by the BODA team as being doctored. You can see those deets here:

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=8106

And the previous N54 thread here:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=2374138

So I recently sent this very card in to PSA for them to check it out under their quality assurance review. The whole idea being that under their guarantee, if it has indeed been doctored, then PSA has the distinct pleasure of honoring their guarantee by writing me a big check to compensate me for buying a doctored card.

I'm happy to report that they have now concluded their review, although I'm less happy with the results. They sent me this email earlier today (I've eliminated his name to avoid potential issues there):

"My name is [name], I'm a specialist with PSA Customer Relations.
I am emailing you regarding your Quality Assurance Review Submission, which we are working on getting back to you.

Your card was reviewed by our Director of Grading who confirms the Authenticity and grade of the card.
We will have your card sent back to you via FedEx overnight by tomorrow at the latest.

This email is being sent to you as a courtesy and no response is needed from your end. Do not hesitate to contact us if you need anything or further clarification.

We thank you for your patience and understanding."

I emailed back to inquire whether they would be including any additional documentation, and he responded as follows:

"Unfortunately PSA does not include a certificate of authenticity, however the fact that the card has been sent to us and is being sent back to you with the cert number still intact (not deactivated) should be proof enough that the card is most certainly authentic."

So there you have it. Apparently BODA was wrong, and I can sleep well at night knowing that PSA stands behind their original grade. No doubt about it.

Graders typically stand behind the grade. This outcome could have been predicted and might have on the original thread. PSA nor SGC, which is now PSA, could not afford to actually buy back all of the cards they have graded that are actually altered.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Graders typically stand behind the grade. This outcome could have been predicted and might have on the original thread. PSA nor SGC, which is now PSA, could not afford to actually buy back all of the cards they have graded that are actually altered.

The corporation has investigated its decisions and determined they were all correct. Now shut up and keep sending us money, we know most of you will regardless of anything we do.

[swarmee]

That's one reason why PSA is the arbiter of their Grade Guarantee. They determine whether or not they have to pay out.

The only way this changes is to take them to court and show the before and after images, but I think you have to do it in their jurisdiction. Or you could go scorched Earth and torment them on social media, in which case they'll still make you file a suit against them, but they'll also restrict you from your PSA account or the ability to submit cards to them again.

So they couldn't detect the trimming or the recoloring? That's your industry leader, folks!

[raulus]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

I’m having a hard judging the tone of this post. Are you now comfortable with this card in your registry and collection?

I guess my sarcasm can be a little difficult to decipher sometimes.

Sadly, I am not comfortable having this card in my collection.

[Peter_Spaeth]

We control the horizontal. We control the vertical. Utterly fucking predictable. Sorry Nicolo.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by raulus

I guess my sarcasm can be a little difficult to decipher sometimes.

Sadly, I am not comfortable having this card in my collection.

Understood, thought this was the sentiment, but wanted to confirm. I’m sorry to hear this. What do you think your next steps will be?

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

I’m having a hard judging the tone of this post. Are you now comfortable with this card in your registry and collection?

Hahaha

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[brianp-beme]

Sometimes I have the feeling that this is the only type of doctored card PSA would be able/willing to identify.

brianp(arker)-beme

[Johnny630]

You will still get more than what you paid for the card if you give this to an auction. People who bid in auctions that go after grades buy and pay up for the number the holders they don’t buy the card you’re still gonna be fine. To me, you’re in the driver's seat PSA blessed it. It’s gold because the slab is good. Be happy with it in your collection.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Graders typically stand behind the grade. This outcome could have been predicted and might have on the original thread. PSA nor SGC, which is now PSA, could not afford to actually buy back all of the cards they have graded that are actually altered.

Agreed. Unless the grading error is so obvious that it would be an embarrassment to their basic competency, like grading a reprint card as an original. Otherwise, they will deflect and deny.

What is interesting about raulus's card is that it was part of a big submission that Moser made to PSA, and they rejected about half of the cards. Why didn't they send them all back? And what balls PSA has to continue to defend the cards in that submission they chose to grade back then.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[raulus]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Understood, thought this was the sentiment, but wanted to confirm. I’m sorry to hear this. What do you think your next steps will be?

At this point, my only options are to sell it and let someone else deal with it, or else to sit on it.

Not really excited about either of these options.

I suppose I could also buy another one, and slide this one to the back of the closet until I decide what I want to do about it. But that comes with a pretty hefty price tag.

So I'm likely to continue to do nothing, whilst aggressively directing negative energy at this piece every time it comes within eyeshot. Curse you, Moser!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

At this point, my only options are to sell it and let someone else deal with it, or else to sit on it.

Not really excited about either of these options.

I suppose I could also buy another one, and slide this one to the back of the closet until I decide what I want to do about it. But that comes with a pretty hefty price tag.

So I'm likely to continue to do nothing, whilst aggressively directing negative energy at this piece every time it comes within eyeshot. Curse you, Moser!

Sell it, hopefully with disclosure, and replace it. Not worth the aggravation.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sell it, hopefully with disclosure, and replace it. Not worth the aggravation.

I think my biggest misgiving about that approach is knowing that whoever buys it is likely to flip it, but without disclosure, to a buyer who would likely be oblivious to the history.

So I would be enriching someone willing to go there, and sticking someone else with it who doesn't realize that it's tainted.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I think my biggest misgiving about that approach is knowing that whoever buys it is likely to flip it, but without disclosure, to a buyer who would likely be oblivious to the history.

So I would be enriching someone willing to go there, and sticking someone else with it who doesn't realize that it's tainted.

You can't control the future in any event unless you destroy the card completely. But you can control the immediate sale with a clear conscience, IMO.

[Beercan collector]

Is the PSA certification number still 28639479 ?
I cannot get it to come up on PSA but 28639478 does and all I’m gonna say about that card is it’s interesting

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You can't control the future in any event unless you destroy the card completely. But you can control the immediate sale with a clear conscience, IMO.

Yep. Just don't want some other poor collector who has saved up their hard-earned bread for many moons to get bamboozled, ultimately ending up with the same disappointment, yet at a much higher price tag.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Yep. Just don't want some other poor collector who has saved up their hard-earned bread for many moons to get bamboozled, ultimately ending up with the same disappointment, yet at a much higher price tag.

Sell it here. That way, if we see it for sale down the road, we'll at least know who the unethical person is.

[Beercan collector]

Again has anyone tried pulling it up on PSA unless I’m doing something wrong it’s not showing up

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

Is the PSA certification number still 28639479 ?
I cannot get it to come up on PSA but 28639478 does and all I’m gonna say about that card is it’s interesting

Good catch. Hadn't checked that. The cert is still in my sets as 28639479. Yet when I click on the button to verify the cert, it gives me an error message.

I just sent a follow-up email to inquire about this, particularly because he asserted that it hasn't been decertified.

[G1911]

If they claim it’s not altered and there’s not evidence it is (a lie) so they don’t have to honor the guarantee, what possible grounds are there to invalidate the cert?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

The corporation has investigated its decisions and determined they were all correct. Now shut up and keep sending us money, we know most of you will regardless of anything we do.

That is it. People inherently must love being abused.

PSA has graded 10s of millions of cards and not only have they graded them all accurately but only a few times did an altered card ever get past them. If you do not believe me, just ask them.

Everyone knows this so if you are someone who accepts those terms then you have nothing to be upset about if it is at your expense. If one does not accept this, then divest and do not support them. Yeah right like that is ever happening. PSA put all their chips on greed and ego and those come up almost 100% of the time. HOUSE WINS!

[ncinin]

Originally Posted by raulus

Good catch. Hadn't checked that. The cert is still in my sets as 28639479. Yet when I click on the button to verify the cert, it gives me an error message.

I just sent a follow-up email to inquire about this, particularly because he asserted that it hasn't been decertified.

If I am not mistaken the PSA 8 T206 Wagner or a card like that was once reviewed by PSA and after the grade was confirmed the cert # was invalid for a few days. It seemed as if the cert # was withdrawn during the review but there was a time lapse after grade confirmation until the cert # was reactivated.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sell it, hopefully with disclosure, and replace it. Not worth the aggravation.

Why should be disclose anything? He innocently bought the POS card relying on the reputation of the TPG. They doubled down and said it was good. How far does he have to go? I am all for disclosure but what is he disclosing? This is for PSA to defend, imo. I think he did the right thing by bringing it to their attention.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Why should be disclose anything? He innocently bought the POS card relying on the reputation of the TPG. They doubled down and said it was good. How far does he have to go? I am all for disclosure but what is he disclosing? This is for PSA to defend, imo. I think he did the right thing by bringing it to their attention.

I understand that, I guess personally I would not feel comfortable selling a card I knew to be altered without laying out the facts.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I am all for disclosure but what is he disclosing?

The truth. That's it, just the truth. Actual, honest reality. Should that not be enough of a reason?

I'm sure by tomorrow morning this will be another thread where we pretend that just being honest is oh so complicated and/or difficult and/or somehow actually wrong.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by ncinin

If I am not mistaken the PSA 8 T206 Wagner or a card like that was once reviewed by PSA and after the grade was confirmed the cert # was invalid for a few days. It seemed as if the cert # was withdrawn during the review but there was a time lapse after grade confirmation until the cert # was reactivated.

During most card reviews, they deactivate the cert and re-establish once it gets completed. So they may still be closing out the review and the cert will pop up.

Specifically to that PSA 8 Honus Wagner (of which there is only 1: #00000001), PSA claimed that it was not being reviewed, just that there was a glitch or outage on their site for that specific card.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I understand that, I guess personally I would not feel comfortable selling a card I knew to be altered without laying out the facts.

The whole altered card world is super frustrating to me as a consumer. I understand your pov. In truth, disclosing might not have any impact on the final price. I would think that most people who are buying high grade 50s star cards either have to know, assume or don't care that they have an altered card. Registry points are important, ya know.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

The whole altered card world is super frustrating to me as a consumer. I understand your pov. In truth, disclosing might not have any impact on the final price. I would think that most people who are buying high grade 50s star cards either have to know, assume or don't care that they have an altered card. Registry points are important, ya know.

I am sure the price would still be strong.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

The truth. That's it, just the truth. Actual, honest reality. Should that not be enough of a reason?

Not gonna argue with that. I just went back and reread what was done to the card and it is obvious it is an altered card...nothing subjective there. So disclosure should be in order.

The best way to do that is to give it to an auction house that will write it up properly giving the card the best chance of being identified as an altered card that subsequent potential buyers can refer back to, if they wanted. If it is listed on eBay the description will not exist after 60 days.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by G1911

The truth. That's it, just the truth. Actual, honest reality. Should that not be enough of a reason?

The site needs a "BINGO!!" button.

[Peter_Spaeth]

But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved PSA.

[ullmandds]

I agree...the card should be destroyed!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by G1911

The truth. That's it, just the truth. Actual, honest reality. Should that not be enough of a reason?

I'm sure by tomorrow morning this will be another thread where we pretend that just being honest is oh so complicated and/or difficult and/or somehow actually wrong.

Hahaha...true!

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved PSA.

Is this autobiographical?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Is this autobiographical?

More like in reverse. I started out a big fan. Flash back to 1996, sent in a bunch of cards purchased from an SCD ad, got a call from Mike Baker telling me they were all trimmed and explaining what to look for. I thought they were great. It took quite some time to undo that perception.

[G1911]

Instead of destroying the card, selling it with disclosure, selling it without disclosure, and keeping it in its slab there is another fun option...

[Snowman]

I'm going to start making Tiffany stickers and putting them on my slabs. Then in my listing descriptions, I'll proudly disclose, "as seen in the Tiffany card database!"

I bet they'll even sell for a premium. If anyone else wants a sticker, let me know.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by raulus

Yep. Just don't want some other poor collector who has saved up their hard-earned bread for many moons to get bamboozled, ultimately ending up with the same disappointment, yet at a much higher price tag.

Then have a little fun with it. See how far you can shove it up the backside of PSA.

Nifty little YouTube video of it being liberated, resubmitted, and denied a number grade at PSA, SGC, CGC & Beckett would be fun to watch. Get someone else to do the submissions.

Might make a few bucks back on YouTube too…. Might even get some donations for that matter.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Why should be disclose anything? He innocently bought the POS card relying on the reputation of the TPG. They doubled down and said it was good. How far does he have to go? I am all for disclosure but what is he disclosing? This is for PSA to defend, imo. I think he did the right thing by bringing it to their attention.

https://thecollectorconnection.com/b...e?itemid=20787

"To be 100% forthcoming we thought the upper right of the top border was trimmed. We submitted this at the National and when we got notice of the grade we immediately asked PSA, before we even took possession, to take another look. They stood behind their grade. Of course once it received a grade the question became "How is this only a 1.5?"

Disclosure won't necessarily hurt the end price. It's better to do it and be able to sleep at night.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Then have a little fun with it. See how far you can shove it up the backside of PSA.

Nifty little YouTube video of it being liberated, resubmitted, and denied a number grade at PSA, SGC, CGC & Beckett would be fun to watch. Get someone else to do the submissions.

Might make a few bucks back on YouTube too…. Might even get some donations for that matter.

Quite thought provoking!

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I'm going to start making Tiffany stickers and putting them on my slabs. Then in my listing descriptions, I'll proudly disclose, "as seen in the Tiffany card database!"

I bet they'll even sell for a premium. If anyone else wants a sticker, let me know.

How many do you have? Outed slabs, I mean, not stickers.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[raulus]

Originally Posted by swarmee

During most card reviews, they deactivate the cert and re-establish once it gets completed. So they may still be closing out the review and the cert will pop up.

Specifically to that PSA 8 Honus Wagner (of which there is only 1: #00000001), PSA claimed that it was not being reviewed, just that there was a glitch or outage on their site for that specific card.

Response from PSA on this score:

Not to worry, any card that is at our facility is placed "on hold". You won't be able to see the cert in our database until it has shipped out, (we should be shipping your order today).

[JustinD]

I think (and it has seemingly been proven) that PSA has no plans at all to honor their guarantee with this scandal in any situation. The fear of the dominoes that would fall if they even capitulate to a single claim on this would essentially bankrupt them as the submissions pile in.

Even with a preponderance of evidence they will cover their eyes like a three-year old and yell "No! I don't see it!". Pretty sure they would argue the sky is green at this point if it helps move this to the background.

It's a sad situation and I feel for the innocent buyers with millions wrapped up in this issue, which is essentially a middle man situation to a fraud for profit ring. There is no logical path of recourse for the end buyer left holding the bag. You are either forced to hold a card you don't feel good about as it is tainted, Destroy it and lose thousands, or pass it on and live with the guilt. Not a great corner to be stuck in.

This is the perfect storm of events to show these card doctors what they have done and absolutely prevents me from spending any large amounts on high condition cards ever again.

I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, is it possible to sue both Moser for knowingly committing fraud and PSA for not honoring the basic tenets of their "guarantee" when faced with a mountain of evidence? Seems the photos would be interesting to a jury.

Also, do you have a microscope and high res photo of the scratch repair on Mays? If that is a smoothing and recolor, it would be interesting to see.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

How many do you have? Outed slabs, I mean, not stickers.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

Currently, I don't have any. I plan on adding as many as I can find though. It'll be fun! I might even send her some before and after pictures myself to gain entry into her prestigious "database". Maybe we can get PSA to create the Tiffany Cards registry?

[Snowman]

PSA does not have a guarantee. They just have a marketing department that wants you to think they have one so they can justify their absurd upcharges.

People in this hobby still haven't even begun to understand the scale of this. Even if PSA were only forced to make good on a mere 1% of altered cards, it would still bankrupt them. Hell, even 0.1% would bankrupt them.

[perezfan]

I do not understand how they'd have a leg to stand on, if taken to court. The band on Mays' sleeve was clearly filled in and it could not be more obvious, given the "before and after".

PSA's vague statement did not cover any specifics whatsoever. Did you press them on it, or demand a specific explanation that goes beyond their vague bullshit?

I would either take them to court or hire an attorney who will threaten to do so. Just the threat of it could get you some restitution. And if it went to court, you could set a precedent for hundreds (if not thousands) of other collectors. You could make lemonade out of lemons not just for yourself, but for countless others.

You could be revered as a Hobby Legend. Think positive and make something good come of this blatant fraud.