Helping a good lady....Red Sox sweater info...

[Leon]

So I got a registration from a lady that has a sweater she bought at an estate sale. She is registered but asked for a little help in posting some pictures so here we go. I personally know very little about sweaters but this one looks really nice...

[Leon]

I posted this on the front page too but some folks might not venture over there.....any and all help on what this is will be appreciated..

[perezfan]

Estate Sale.... WOW.

Wish I could get that lucky. This appears to be the real deal from the early 1900s, and is worth whatever the market dictates (keeping in mind that the sky's the limit). On the very rare occasion that these surface, they're typically plagued with moth holes, snags, color bleeding, fading, missing buttons, repairs, etc. This one looks incredibly pristine.

A Holy Grail item for Red Sox and/or early Equipment collectors... Many congrats to her on this incredibly stunning rare and find!

[Bosox Blair]

This might help, though the Legendary sweater has Wright & Ditson tags, rather than Spalding (of course, the companies were related from the mid-1890s on):

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=76970

Cheers,
Blair

[GrayGhost]

OMG. if thats real. its AMAZING

[BigJJ]

1920s Wright and Ditson Red Sox Sweater

http://www.lelands.com/Auction/Aucti...ed-Sox-Sweater

While similar, not the same exact year/style. wish I could see in person, color of this one appears brighter, and more red, than the other two, which is interesting.

[BigJJ]

Grand Opening of Yankee Stadium, April 18, 1923

http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-ph...hawkey?popup=1

Pitcher Howard Ehmke in a sweater

[David Atkatz]

Not real. Doesn't have the detail of the originals, nor the "stiffness"--seems to be made from a much lighter yarn. And not a bit of aging either.

[khkco4bls]

Dave it doesn't mean there wasn't a different shade. But looking at the tagging I might say real. Lets see what the experts say.

[David Atkatz]

I don't care about the shade. It doesn't have the detail. It's not as "substantial." It's a modern copy.
Anyone can get a vintage Spalding label from, say, an old glove.

[David Atkatz]

Look at the tapering in the body on the original.

[BigJJ]

Would want to see in person, but the sweaters I have handled, and I just had an incredible one from 1928, have appeared more stiff, tight, and with more weight. maybe it has this in person. but by photo I agree it looks a little loose and light. they may have made retail ones too back then. Curious as to the years of the tags, whether they properly correspond to the years the style was in use, I do not know the year tags off-hand.

[perezfan]

Well, it would indeed help to see/feel it in person. Here it is in a recently terminated ebay auction...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1930...#ht_277wt_1178

Ebay auction was ended early, due to an error in the listing. I wonder if the "would be" Seller is the same woman as reached out to Leon? Perhaps she was tipped off as to the value (if authentic).

[johnmh71]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Well, it would indeed help to see/feel it in person. Here it is in a recently terminated ebay auction...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1930...#ht_277wt_1178

Ebay auction was ended early, due to an error in the listing. I wonder if the "would be" Seller is the same woman as reached out to Leon? Perhaps she was tipped off as to the value (if authentic).

Same sweater IMO.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by johnmh71

Same sweater IMO.

I'm pretty sure we all knew it was the same sweater.

[BigJJ]

I'm cracking up.

[BigJJ]

Great ebay find. The ebay listing is interesting in that it identifies the sweater as 1930s-1940s. Now it takes some research to come up with that I would think. If good, I do think it is likely to post date the others from the early/mid twenties. We need dates on those tags!

[Leon]

I was out of pocket for a while. Yes, that is the sweater in the ebay auction. She took it down when she got some really high offers so she could find out about it. I already told her it will need to be authenticated. Sweaters aren't my thing but I bet I can help her find someone to authenticate it. More to come I am sure....and I do hope it's real for her sake, but if not, then so be it.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by BigJJ

Great ebay find. The ebay listing is interesting in that it identifies the sweater as 1930s-1940s. Now it takes some research to come up with that I would think. If good, I do think it is likely to post date the others from the early/mid twenties. We need dates on those tags!

If authentic, it's definitely older than '30s - '40s. I personally think the quality is too good to be a repro. It would be very difficult to reproduce that, IMO. If it were properly stored (perhaps in a Cedar Chest) for all those years, it would explain the softer look and lack of stiffness. The sweater actually looks very thick and professional quality to me... but it's tough to tell from one dimensional pics.

I'm eager to hear what the Authenticator says. Perhaps it's mid-late 1920s, and just a slightly newer variant than those pictured above. That might also explain the Spalding Tagging vs. Wright & Ditson.

[yanks12025]

To me it's looks way to new.. Say it is from the 1920's, it's 90 years old and doesn't show any age what so ever. The other 2 that sold in auction at least showed age.

[perezfan]

We tend to be a cynical group... perhaps all of the fraud, greed, and criminals in the hobby have made us this way. Understood...

But just to play Devil's Advocate....

If this was a repro, wouldn't others have turned up?
The time and expense (and skill) involved to recreate this piece would be tremendous
If it was made for fraudulent purposes, wouldn't the crooks artificially age it (just to make it look older/authentic?)
Why would they leave it so pristine, if intending to deceive? Most reproductions are never sold/auctioned without creating the illusion of age.
The woman who approached Leon seems sincere. Why would she go through the charade of an ebay auction, just to cancel it later?
Why would she terminate the auction, to get it authenticated (if she knew it was fake?)
She says she acquired it in an estate sale. If the original seller was the fraudulent one, why would they sell it in that venue?

They aren't exactly going to maximize their investment, selling it to some unknowing lady at an estate sale!

Just some food for thought... Eager to hear others' views as well

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

If authentic, it's definitely older than '30s - '40s. I personally think the quality is too good to be a repro. It would be very difficult to reproduce that, IMO. If it were properly stored (perhaps in a Cedar Chest) for all those years, it would explain the softer look and lack of stiffness. The sweater actually looks very thick and professional quality to me... but it's tough to tell from one dimensional pics.

I'm eager to hear what the Authenticator says. Perhaps it's mid-late 1920s, and just a slightly newer variant than those pictured above. That might also explain the Spalding Tagging vs. Wright & Ditson.

I agree

[ksfarmboy]

I know they did produce repros of the Red Sox sweaters from this era. They quit making them several years back and they actually looked quite nice. Not saying this one isn't real but just to say they did make a replica. I think Mitchell and Ness made them.

[khkco4bls]

Obviously same sweater. Damn I'm now starting to get disgusted with repro sweaters, baseballs etc. Only going to get worse.

[deebro041]

Here's some Spalding tags:http://www.antiquesportscollector.com/TagsMain.html

[Giants00]

While I cannot opine on this sweater, I own a 1914-1916 Harry Hooper sweater with name in the collar and provenance from the family. I of course could have a bad sweater, but the one I have is from a local label and not Spaulding or Wright & Ditson.

[Leon]

Guys, I spoke to this person on the phone for 30'ish minutes. There is no issue in my mind with her getting it at an estate sale. That being said I am sure it will be authenticated, or not, soon.

[BigJJ]

I don't think anyone is attributing mal-action or mal-intent to the lady. just a question of whether she happened to purchase a period professional piece. And IF a repro, there is no indication that whoever created it, had bad intentions either.
I see an equal chance of it being period and professional versus not, not having it in-hand.

[baseballart]

I can't offer any opinions on the Red Sox sweater, but I have a 1927 sweater from Andy Aitkenhead's estate that "looks too new"

[David Atkatz]

No, Max. Actually your sweater doesn't look "too new." It looks old.

[slidekellyslide]

A sweater I used to own...definitely 1930s as the CCC stands for Civilian Conservation Corps. Belonged to a player named Lefty Stimac who was a Cardinals minor leaguer....I wish I had kept better photos of it, but this is all I have.

[murphusa]

All of Mitchell and Ness Jerseys and Sweaters were made with less buttons than the originals.

Everything pictured here has 8 buttons which was the standard for the period. I don't remember a Red Sox Sweater coming for M&N in this style.

I would direct her to REA as they would give her a nice advance on the future auction winnings

[Bugsy]

This definitely isn't a M&N or Ebbets Field Flannel sweater. All of those repros were made by the same person, in two different styles (they also made one without the shawl collar). Neither close to the Red Sox one in this thread.

Even if this matched a M&N style, it wouldn't have been much of swindle. They originally retailed for $700.

[Leon]

The sweater was sold privately for a low five figures. I couldn't be happier for the lady. She really does seem nice....had a lot of facts, and made the decision she felt best with. Thanks to all who voiced their opinions. BTW, I told her all along I would help as much or as little as she wanted. I think the board helped quite a bit. thanks again all...

[BigJJ]

Great

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Leon

The sweater was sold privately for a low five figures. I couldn't be happier for the lady. She really does seem nice....had a lot of facts, and made the decision she felt best with. Thanks to all who voiced their opinions. BTW, I told her all along I would help as much or as little as she wanted. I think the board helped quite a bit. thanks again all...

Leon...

Did she indicate whether it was sold to a collector, or to someone who intended to re-sell/consign? Just curious if it will be making another appearance.... thanks!

[ruth-gehrig]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Leon...

Did she indicate whether it was sold to a collector, or to someone who intended to re-sell/consign? Just curious if it will be making another appearance.... thanks!

+1

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

+1

She didn't say if it it was to a person that would resell it or not. By the name she gave me, it wouldn't surprise me. (though it's not one I am familiar with). And she did say she sold it with no guarantee, and someone else had said they thought it was maybe circa 1907, by the tagging in it.

[yanks12025]

Well based on the link someone posted of the tagging it is definitely not around 1907. Matches the tag of 1914 to late 1920's.

[peterose4hof]

Gorgeous sweater! Would love to see it listed in an AH for two reasons.

1. To see how much it would sell for on the open market.

2. To see a full write-up with provenance of authenticity.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Leon

She didn't say if it it was to a person that would resell it or not. By the name she gave me, it wouldn't surprise me. (though it's not one I am familiar with). And she did say she sold it with no guarantee, and someone else had said they thought it was maybe circa 1907, by the tagging in it.

I don't think the "Red Sox" name existed until the 1908 season - just sayin'

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

I don't think the "Red Sox" name existed until the 1908 season - just sayin'

They did say "circa"...but it's all sort of moot now since she sold it. Maybe it will resurface with some kind of authentication?

[ctownboy]

I am only half joking when I say this:

Seeing as how things are today, not only will this sweater come to an auction house and be deemed authentic. Because the tagging is circa 1914 to the late 1920's, the sweater will miraculously, through meticulous research, be found to be none other than Babe Ruth's!!!! Not only that but it will be the first sweater he wore during his rookie season!!!

So, when this rare beauty comes to auction, not only will it be the star attraction it will have it's own separate mini catalog describing the research and provenance that went into ascertaining that this is the Babe's very own sweater. Also, there will be multiple full page color photographs to let you see the intricate details and fine craftsmanship of this one of a kind, museum quality piece of baseball history........

David

[RCMcKenzie]

I know nothing about sweaters. Her initial description of 30-40's fan apparel sounded plausible to me.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

I am only half joking when I say this:

Seeing as how things are today, not only will this sweater come to an auction house and be deemed authentic. Because the tagging is circa 1914 to the late 1920's, the sweater will miraculously, through meticulous research, be found to be none other than Babe Ruth's!!!! Not only that but it will be the first sweater he wore during his rookie season!!!

So, when this rare beauty comes to auction, not only will it be the star attraction it will have it's own separate mini catalog describing the research and provenance that went into ascertaining that this is the Babe's very own sweater. Also, there will be multiple full page color photographs to let you see the intricate details and fine craftsmanship of this one of a kind, museum quality piece of baseball history........

David

Only problem is, compared with real examples, there are neither "intricate details," nor "fine craftsmanship."

[ctownboy]

Mr. Atkatz,

Has trivial things like that stopped an auction house from such a description before?

David

[David Atkatz]

David, you're absolutely right!

[frankbmd]

It should be possible to match DNA from the sweater to DNA from one of Ruth's "authentic" balls.

[yanks12025]

Looks like it's in the next heritage auction.


http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...&lotIdNo=17002

[packs]

Traced all the way back to opening day at Yankee Stadium in 1923. Perhaps there was a note in the pocket with directions to the stadium.