Are These Old Judges Good or Reprints??

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Posted By: Jon 

Yup, you guessed it - straight from an estate sale. These three Old Judges look to be in great condition... so, that beckons the question - are they good or fake?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3221965141&category=4120

Thanks!!

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Posted By: Bob

I give the seller credit, he may indeed not be aware that they are bogus, but there's that hosanna of the seller of reprints "NO RETURNS."

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Posted By: Hankron

Irrelevant to whether or not they are authentic, I don't bid in 'No Returns' eBay auctions. Frankly, I don't see why anyone else would either.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

I'm no big expert on Old Judges, but compared to the few I have and the many I've seen on ebay and Lipset's auctions, etc., these really don't look legit to me. If that's the case, I feel bad for the last seller who recently won an Old Judge auction, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4120&item=3220466930&rd=1, from this seller a few days back. That auction had a Clarkson, Bastian and a Greenwood. I actually bid on that auction at the beginning because the scan was a little less clear then the more recent offering and I figured I'd take a risky chance that the Clarkson was real. Of course I was later outbid - thankfully - as the winning bidder paid just under 800.00 for the three card lot. I haven't been in the vintage game as long as some of the other collectors on this forum, But when it came to the Old Judges being offered by this seller, I should have known better, I'm just lucky I didn't get stuck with 800.00 worth of fake crud. It's been said before too many times that you really have to stay on your guard as ebay really is like the wild west for unwary collectors.

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Posted By: leon

Don't discount "no return" auctions altogether. I think other things need to be looked at too....all of mine are "no return" and so far, knock on wood, I have never had an issue and get pretty good prices for the few things I sell...BIG CLEAR SCANS are usually a guide to success....regards

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Posted By: Jay Miller

You guys must have better eyes than me--these look OK to me based on the scans. I don't need any of them and that is the only reason that I am not going to bid. What makes you guys think that there is a problem?

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Posted By: Hankron

But, Leon, you've already stated here more than once that your auctions aren't actual "No Returns," and I bet when potential bidders inquire, you tell that that there are returns if there is a material problem. You also must admit that you collect and sell within an extremely narrow area, and my guess is that most of the people who win your expensive cards know or know of you. It's kind like with with Jay: it doesn't matter what is Lee's in writing return policy, because Jay lives only two doors down and will beat the crap out of his brother if he doesn't get his money back.

If a normal seller wants to offer Draconian return conditons it's no skin off my nose. However, it's my opionion that Draconian return conditions and guarantees mostly hurts one person: the seller.

P.s. I realize that MastroNet has 'Absolutly No Returns,' and I bid in thier auctions. I think that MastroNet can safetly be categorized apart from most other sellers, especially individuals on eBay.

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Posted By: Hankron

I point out that a return/guarantee conditon of "Unless the item turns out of be a fake or I made some other big mistake like totally misgraded it, there are no returns whatsoever," is reasonable. I may not bid under those conditons, but the guarantee has some meat.

As I look at it, "Abolutely No Returns" is inclusive of most everything under the sun. Meaning, as written if not intended, the phrase includes:

"No returns if it's a forgery"
"No returns if it's fake."
"No returns if, even though I say it's Mint, it turns out to be cut in half."
"No Returns if the Babe Ruth 'autograph' turns out to be written by my little sister."
"No returns if I send you the wrong item."

I don't know about anyone else, but these aren't conditions that will invite my bidding.

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Posted By: julie

absoluterly no returns froms someone who admittedly doesn't know too much about what he's selling either!

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Posted By: runscott

His feedback is high, with few complaints, and although he says "No Returns", he also says that they are over 100 years old. I think that if you won the auction and determined that they were reprints, he would take them back. Also, I don't see what looks fake about them.

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Posted By: Hankron

I agree with Jay and Scott in that it would be difficult to forge the patented Old Judge bow (meaning, the lateral curvature to the cardboard and photographic print).

As far as unwritten conditons go, I think the bidder should relay with what is written, or obtain the needed exceptions to the rule in writing. For practical if not courtroom purposes, email likely will suffice (Potential bidder to seller via email: "What happens if the cards turn out to be reprints or counterfeits? Will you accept returns then?" Seller: "Yes, it it turns out to be a forgery or modern reprint you can return it." ... If it turns out seller's answer is, "The rule specifically says 'No Returns.' If you don't like the conditions don't bid," will you still bid?). I doubt many judges find as acceptable an argument, "Yeah, I know that it was specifically written down in the contract that I could only return the item within 10 days, but I just assumed he would let me return it after 20."

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Julie--Take a look at some of your Old Judge. The surface has a shine which gives this type of glare. I think the color is more a function of the scanner than the cards. However, I have seen plenty of different shades on Old Judge--from pink and purple to blackish to the normal sepia.

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Posted By: julie

Well, you ought to be!

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Posted By: James

As most of you know, I am MASStercards, and won this group of 3.

Before I went to the mat for them, I seriously considered whether they were authentic. Because, as many of you point out, they are almost "suspiciously clean".

In the end, I determined there seem to be more factors leaning in favor of them being real, than against. Maybe it's a risk on my part, but the seller is reputable.

As always, I am happy to see there is a running commentary on questionable cards.

James Verrill

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Posted By: BCD

what they grade if you send them in?

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Posted By: RC_McKenzie

Why counterfeit obscure players? Seems like a lot of trouble.

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Posted By: AdamBaxter

After reading the various posts by the more experienced members of the forum, I have come to the conclusion that perhaps I was a bit hasty in my condemnation of these cards (Clarkson, etc.) I'm just a new pup and I'm not as schooled on the in and outs of Old Judge...yet.

And to James Verill:Congrats, good score on those three cards, especially the Clarkson!