Brooklyn CDV

[drc]

I haven't followed the details of this thread or looked closely at the images, but having handled countless 'mass produced' 1860s CDVs of famous people and situations I can say that the image quality can legitimately vary in quality and clarity between CDVs of the same subject. These were often produced as commercial items, not original works of art, and the image quality can vary for a variety of reasons, including aging and time changes to the negative or print, who made them, perhaps the some were made form a copy images, etc. It's possible to find one lighter and/or clearer than another and they were made in the same year. Perhaps they weren't made in the same way or by the same printer (helping to explain the difference), but they can be from the same time period.

With civil war era photo of US generals, presidents and other famous people, some of the images are clearly first generation (images are as sharp and detailed as a modern photo) while others are copy images, copy negatives and even reproductions of engravings and paintings. The latter don't qualify as 'Type I' but do date to Civil War.

[smokelessjoe]

Scott,

We will disagree I guess... Actually not of high quality - certainly not his best. Trimmed & mounted fairly hastily / crooked and overlapping... and a clear image compared to what? I would have to have another of the same to say whether its clear or not? (this in context of comparing two CDVs in question)

[Runscott]

never mind....waste of time

[drc]

Visa vie my earlier post, I thought it would be interesting to post three 1860s period Abe Lincoln albumen photos. These were made for sale and are by prominent studios.

#1) Mathew Brady cabinet with sharp and clear image (though with some aging/foxing)





#2) Oversized albumen with second generation/worn image and some artistic manipulation. By Henry F. Warren, well known to baseball photo collectors Of historical footnote, this is the last image of Lincoln.






#3) And an albumen CDV that reproduces artwork, probably an engraving. It's actually a photograph of the art.

[oldjudge]

Troy--any word on the guarantee?

[Saco River Auction]

I spoke with Paul Messier This Morning and Posed the question that Cory asked Me to. The question was how certain are you that this albumen was printed in the 19th century?

Paul's Response is that "He has a extremely high level of certainty that this was printed in the 19th century and is period". Moreover, There was also no evidence to support that this was made any other time. He is extremely certain that this is a 19th century albumen print, created in the mid 19th century.

Also, Paul is away this week, however next week he will be available for phone calls. The only caviat is you need to set the appointment up with me in order to call him, as we do not want him pestered by certain people and reporters.

And Jay I have not forgot about you, you will have your answer shortly.

Troy

[Runscott]

Paul Messier has a list of "certain people" who pester him?

Given all the publicity this cdv has generated, I suggest that Troy print up some glossies of himself and carry them around, along with a gold Sharpie.

[Saco River Auction]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Paul Messier has a list of "certain people" who pester him?

Given all the publicity this cdv has generated, I suggest that Troy print up some glossies of himself and carry them around, along with a gold Sharpie.

For three easy payments of $39.95, I will send you one of those glossies with a personal message....and free shipping.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Saco River Auction

For three easy payments of $39.95, I will send you one of those glossies with a personal message....and free shipping.

Seriously Troy, good luck with the auction. The recent statement you got from Paul sounds fantastic.

And I did speak with someone in the coffee shop today, who knows nothing about photography or antiques, and he had heard about this photo.

[Saco River Auction]

Thanks Scott, I hope it does well.

[drc]

As a photo historian, I can say that Paul Messier is one of the most prominent photo conservators in the world and he most definitely could tell the difference between an albumen print and a digital reproduction. I knew who he was long before this thread started.

[Saco River Auction]

After speaking with the owners of Saco River Auction and the owner of SGC I have your answer.

Firstly SGC has stated that as long as this item is not removed from the holder, SGC will stand behind the item(there Guarantee is listed online)100%. They are not willing to open themselves up to potential problems by cards being broken out of the holder, possibly switched or tampered with, alleged experts of the buyers choice, rendering their own opinion six months or even a year down the road, and other potential problems. They are convinced that the work they did was justified and righteous and this is authentic.

Saco River Auction's official stance on this is the same as all of our other auctions. This card has been authenticated by two of the best companies around and we know this card is real. However we also are not comfortable with potential bad deeds that can take place after the card is out of our control and out of the holder..Instances such as buyers remorse, unqualified opinions from other experts, switched cards and more. Auction houses have items authenticated, because we are not the experts on this type of item. Therefore the guarantee must always rest with the authenticators, SGC, PSA, JSA etc. Our sale on February 6 and all sales after and prior to, are as is where is with no warranties or guarantees. We are not going to change our company policy for one item(although a fantastic item) out of the thousands of items we sell. This would open the door for literally tens of thousands of items that we sell every year.

I would hope that this would not dissuade any bidders on this, but this card has been proven to be a real 19th century albumen and we are happy to sell it.

Troy

[Matthew H]

It sounds like if the winner opens the slab to test the binder they're SOL if its not legit?

[Jacklitsch]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

It sounds like if the winner opens the slab to test the binder they're SOL if its not legit?

That's it in a nutshell.

[oldjudge]

So Troy what you are saying is that if the binder is tested as to whether it is period, and it is found not to be, the card is not returnable even though it has then been proven to be a fake? While I think that Paul Messier is extremely knowledgeable about 19th century photographs I believe that SGC's knowledge is limited, at best, and I believe that their opinion relating to this piece is virtually worthless. Would you allow Mr Messier to test the binder(assuming he can test it to see if it is period)? If it turns out not to be period then the card is returnable for a full refund.

[Saco River Auction]

I have spoken with the owners at length and they are not willing to budge on this issue and here are the reasons. They do not believe that the testing is warranted, they do not feel that the testing is safe, and they feel that they have gone above and beyond what has ever been undertaken by any auction hall.

First, the testing that has been done and the opinions of the established experts in both sports collectibles and 19th century photography are rock solid in our opinion. It is unheard of for auction halls to go to multiple experts in order to make bidders feel better. SGC is an established expert in sports collectibles, specifically the older stuff and Paul Messier is a world renowned leader in his field of antique photography. Both have authenticated this item, and Paul's quoted stance, gained today and shared with you all, further solidifies our position that the item we are selling is real and is what we say it is.

The testing that Messier lists in his report is testing that the auction hall is not willing to support. As I have said all along, we consider it a damaging test. Whenever you alter(even in the smallest way) an antique item, it is not longer right and as it was. In business you have to weigh risk vs. reward and in our opinion the risk of the item being damaged or destroyed or altered, is not worth the reward of confirming what we already know which is that this is an authentic item. When Paul Messier inspected the binding agent under heavy magnification, he could clearly see a distinct sheen to the agent which is uniquely associated with the sheen caused by the binding agents used in authentic 19th century albumen prints. This is caused by the chemical makeup of that agent. All examples in his collection showed the same distinct sheen. I mentioned these things in conversation with him today and he agreed that this sheen is the key element in the binding material. To allow a customer to potentially damage or destroy a valuable item, to quantify results that have already been determined by a photography expert, is foolish and risky. We have no doubt that the results of such as test would show that this is an authentic albumen print from the 19th century, but we are not willing to risk damage to the item.

Lastly, we have been signing up a steady stream of bidders on this item as their fears have been removed by the work we have done on this item. If you do not feel comfortable enough to bid on this item then I guess you won't be able to bid. I think it would be unfortunate that you will miss out on a fantastic piece of history, but you gotta follow your own instincts on this.

Aside from that I hope I have answered your questions the best I can.

Troy

[martindl]

Originally Posted by Saco River Auction

I have spoken with the owners at length and they are not willing to budge on this issue and here are the reasons. They do not believe that the testing is warranted, they do not feel that the testing is safe, and they feel that they have gone above and beyond what has ever been undertaken by any auction hall.

First, the testing that has been done and the opinions of the established experts in both sports collectibles and 19th century photography are rock solid in our opinion. It is unheard of for auction halls to go to multiple experts in order to make bidders feel better. SGC is an established expert in sports collectibles, specifically the older stuff and Paul Messier is a world renowned leader in his field of antique photography. Both have authenticated this item, and Paul's quoted stance, gained today and shared with you all, further solidifies our position that the item we are selling is real and is what we say it is.

Troy

Troy,
I appreciate your continued updates and efforts.

I think it's a very bold statement to say the owners have gone above and beyond any other auction house, when there are other auction houses who would authenticate this item 100% via testing. I hear the 'damage' rationale, but 'other' auction houses routinely perform forensic testing to determine an items' validity.

Whether it is unheard of for auction houses to go to multiple experts to make bidders feel better is beyond my scope of knowledge. However, your responsibility is to your consigner and in that regard it's very common to get multiple experts' opinions to try to reach the maximum return for that consigner.

I assume the consigner been advised that there remain questions as to the authenticity of the card and if they were to pay for additional testing and the item is deemed to be real, their return would be potentially higher. If I were the consigner and believed everything I've been told thus far, I would pay for the additional testing myself and remove any doubts.

Again, thanks for the updates and good luck with the auction.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Saco River Auction

SGC is an established expert in sports collectibles, specifically the older stuff

That is incorrect.

I hate to get involved in this discussion again, but this has been bugging me for a while.

Going to a vintage photography expert such as Paul Messier, was the correct move. You've mentioned your fears that the item will be damaged or destroyed by forensic testing. Mr. Messier is an avid 19th century albumen collector (as you have alluded to). Why would he offer tests of 19th century albumens that would be damaging or destructive? Did he tell you that these tests could result in damage?

[Saco River Auction]

Originally Posted by Runscott

That is incorrect.

I hate to get involved in this discussion again, but this has been bugging me for a while.

Going to a vintage photography expert such as Paul Messier, was the correct move. You've mentioned your fears that the item will be damaged or destroyed by forensic testing. Mr. Messier is an avid 19th century albumen collector (as you have alluded to). Why would he offer tests of 19th century albumens that would be damaging or destructive? Did he tell you that these tests could result in damage?

Here are Messier's Terms and conditions....

1. Client has delivered to Messier certain photographs (the “Photos”) as described on page 1 and illustrated and by this
reference incorporated herein for all purposes. Client hereby represents and warrants to Messier that Client has all legal right
and power to authorize Messier to conduct the Services (as described in Part 2 below) with respect to the Photos. Client shall
remain liable for the risk of loss to the Photos.

2. Client has engaged Messier to conduct the following analytical services (the “Services”) with respect to the Photos to
determine the nature of the materials and the methods of manufacture of the Photos as described on page 1. The client has
waived and disclaims all claims and causes of action against Messier with respect to any damage caused to the Photos by the
performance of the Services.

If it is not possible to damage items during a forensic examination, then why is it in the terms and conditions.

Now as a business that is charged with selling an item that does not belong to us, why would you take a risk. If this card is damaged during the testing, who foots the bill to the consignor. Who calls the consignor and tells him that his once very valuable piece is now damaged and worthless. These are true concerns that none of you are willing to consider, yet you want us to make rash decisions or do forensic testing that we do not feel is warranted and is potentially dangerous to a historic piece. You can discuss this all you want, but the bottom line is this...terms and conditions are put forth based on incidents that have happened in the past, whether with Mr. Messier or other forensic examiners....so the risk is real, otherwise there would be no need for that kind off language in the terms and conditions.

Troy

[Runscott]

As you know, what you just quoted was standard stuff that is put in any contract that involves an item leaving the hands of the owner. I assume you agreed to those terms before ANY testing was done.

Paul Messier hasn't said anything to the contrary, so other than his accidentally dropping the item, or having some sort of seizure and losing control of his equipment, forensic testing is done all the time and is safe (e.g-the Mona Lisa, etc.)

[Runscott]

Question to collectors on this board:

If someone won any photographic item at auction, sent it to Mr. Messier for image and binder testing, and the item came back as a forgery, what are your legal rights? If Mr. Messier is the same person who tested the item in the first place, and he stated explicitly what additional tests could be performed, I think I know the answer.

If the answer is what I think it is, then no one has anything to worry about.

[smokelessjoe]

Scott,

What scares me about your ideas regarding this is that if I follow your logic than I cannot trust or believe For Certain that any of the photos YOU own are real. Unfortunately at this time it is a fact that all of the photos you own could be fake. That is a fact and will remain a fact until you have this fiber analysis/testing done on everyone of them.


At this point, if you have any or put any photos up for sale I cannot buy from you. It's nothing personal - I just cannot trust you.... I need forensic proof

Scott, please hit me up if you ever do decide to sell something that is not fake... Of course include the proper documentation that I mentioned above - otherwise happy hunting!


Shawn

[oldjudge]

Shawn- other than the fact that this is a rather expensive item, and Scott is not now trying to sell anything,

[smokelessjoe]

Well, we have certainly talked about more expensive (relative word) items than this before and instead of using Scott, use Bob, Jake, Cyrus etc...


It is a shame to realize though that every photo that Scott owns is possibly a fake.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Saco River Auction

Here are Messier's Terms and conditions....

1. Client has delivered to Messier certain photographs (the “Photos”) as described on page 1 and illustrated and by this
reference incorporated herein for all purposes. Client hereby represents and warrants to Messier that Client has all legal right
and power to authorize Messier to conduct the Services (as described in Part 2 below) with respect to the Photos. Client shall
remain liable for the risk of loss to the Photos.

2. Client has engaged Messier to conduct the following analytical services (the “Services”) with respect to the Photos to
determine the nature of the materials and the methods of manufacture of the Photos as described on page 1. The client has
waived and disclaims all claims and causes of action against Messier with respect to any damage caused to the Photos by the
performance of the Services.

If it is not possible to damage items during a forensic examination, then why is it in the terms and conditions.

Now as a business that is charged with selling an item that does not belong to us, why would you take a risk. If this card is damaged during the testing, who foots the bill to the consignor. Who calls the consignor and tells him that his once very valuable piece is now damaged and worthless. These are true concerns that none of you are willing to consider, yet you want us to make rash decisions or do forensic testing that we do not feel is warranted and is potentially dangerous to a historic piece. You can discuss this all you want, but the bottom line is this...terms and conditions are put forth based on incidents that have happened in the past, whether with Mr. Messier or other forensic examiners....so the risk is real, otherwise there would be no need for that kind off language in the terms and conditions.

Troy

Troy,

What about the following?

The winning bidder shall have the option at the conclusion of the auction to have the CdV sent to Mr. Messier for the additional testing. If the winning bidder declines to accept this option, then he/she will have no further recourse against Saco Auctions if the item is later shown to be a fake. If, though, the winning bidder exercises the option, upon Saco Auctions being paid for the item it will send it to Mr. Messier for the additional testing. If this testing determines the item is a fake through the presence of substances that were not commercially available in the 19th century, Saco Auctions will refund the purchase price to the winning bidder as well as be responsible for the additional testing expenses. If the testing does not so establish the item is a fake, then the winning bidder shall be responsible for paying the additional testing expenses and agrees to accept all risks associated with the testing.

So under this scenario Saco Auctions incurs no risk the additional testing might damage the item unless it is proven to be a fake. Then, even if the testing damages the CdV, what will have been damaged is something with no value to start with.

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Scott,

What scares me about your ideas regarding this is that if I follow your logic than I cannot trust or believe For Certain that any of the photos YOU own are real. Unfortunately at this time it is a fact that all of the photos you own could be fake. That is a fact and will remain a fact until you have this fiber analysis/testing done on everyone of them.


At this point, if you have any or put any photos up for sale I cannot buy from you. It's nothing personal - I just cannot trust you.... I need forensic proof

Scott, please hit me up if you ever do decide to sell something that is not fake... Of course include the proper documentation that I mentioned above - otherwise happy hunting!


Shawn

No one is required to do anymore testing. Scott isn't and the auction house isn't for the items they sell. There may be a negative impact in the final sale price however if the burden of proof is not met. You won't buy from Scott but others will. Same thing with this piece. It doesn't eliminate the sale, it just might exclude some buyers.

If the auction house's job is to get maximum dollars for the piece, they should endeavor to broaden the audience and not exclude anyone. Their choice, of course, as to how far they are willing to go.

[oldjudge]

Corey makes an excellent suggestion. If the consignor/auction house is not worried about what Paul might find I don't know why they would not agree to this.

[Saco River Auction]

The ownership has declined to do anything further or to enter into any side contracts or agreements with the buyer. As we said in our post yesterday, this has ramifications beyond this one item and we are not willing to set a precedence on this item, which could involve us entering into side agreements for additional forensic testing on thousands of items every year. Yes this is a unique item and very valuable, but we sell lots of valuable items. It is up to the buyer to know what he or she is buying. Most auctions have the same rules. We have invited all of you to Maine to look at the thing yourselves....bring an expert, spend as long as you need with it, this is work that is your responsibility as buyers, to ensure that you feel good about your purchase. It is still available for viewing anytime. We suggest that if your are going to bid on this, it is worth the drive or flight to do this. Also for my signed up bidders, Paul Messier is going to be available for phone calls, through me, next week. He will be delighted to answer any questions you may have. This is all we are willing to do on this. Despite what has been written, we have in fact taken extreme measures on this and have logged hundreds of man hours on this project. We have done our part.

Troy

[yanks12025]

Once it sells, it's out their hands. So if it's fake, tough luck. I still don't get why the guy who found it and listed it on ebay, received all these high offers while it was on ebay and then sells it to a friend for im guessing alot less then what he was offered on ebay.

In general i don't under the "as-is" in auctions. If you're selling something, say a Babe Ruth signed ball. And it turns out not to be a Babe Ruth ball, then it was false advertising.

[E93]

With all due respect, I think this topic has run its course. I believe SRA have done their due diligence. If the winner choses to have further tests done that determine it to not be period, they can sue to get their money back if it comes to that. I doubt it would. Let's move it.
JimB

[oldjudge]

Troy-at this point "looking" at the card does no good. There is no reason for anyone to go to Maine. If you can't take the card out of the holder and have it tested, there is nothing left to determine. The photo is albumen and we know what the card looks like. The question remains as to whether the binder is period. "Looking" through a plastic holder won't tell you that.

Jim-with all due respect, if you are tired of this thread, don't click on it.

[MGHPro]

Troy has gone above and beyond what most auction houses would do. He got it authenticated by a well respected grading company, offers plenty of time to preview and will even allow you to bring a professional with you to evaluate it. I give Troy a major thumbs up for all of his work and handling himself in a professional manner.

if Lelands never passed on the item and it surfaced in an SGC case, would we really be having this conversation? 99% of auction houses sell as-is where is.. It is stated in black and white. If you really have concerns about the item, don't bid.. that's all. I wouldn't buy an item for 10k or 20k or 100k unless I was pretty confident in it.

I think Troy should be cut some slack and let's see what it does in auction.
Matt

[yanks12025]

Also you talk about taking a sample would damage it. I just compered the photos from ebay to in the holder and there's more damage to the upper left corner now then there use to be.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by MGHPro

Troy has gone above and beyond what most auction houses would do. He got it authenticated by a well respected grading company, offers plenty of time to preview and will even allow you to bring a professional with you to evaluate it. I give Troy a major thumbs up for all of his work and handling himself in a professional manner.

if Lelands never passed on the item and it surfaced in an SGC case, would we really be having this conversation? 99% of auction houses sell as-is where is.. It is stated in black and white. If you really have concerns about the item, don't bid.. that's all. I wouldn't buy an item for 10k or 20k or 100k unless I was pretty confident in it.

I think Troy should be cut some slack and let's see what it does in auction.
Matt

One big +1

[Leon]

Originally Posted by E93

With all due respect, I think this topic has run its course. I believe SRA have done their due diligence. If the winner choses to have further tests done that determine it to not be period, they can sue to get their money back if it comes to that. I doubt it would. Let's move it.
JimB

And with all due respect Jim, maybe some folks don't think it's time to move on. As long as the discourse remains civil I see no harm in continuing the discussion. Saco has done a lot and if I were them I would have done even more. Just one bidder with deep pockets could easily mean 5 figures more in the realized price. I think there are a few deep pocketed collectors in this thread too. One other thing, I would suggest Troy brush up on what is customary in our hobby. Several things stated, concerning norms, are obviously not correct. It's not extraordinary to get more than a few expert opinions on a valuable item. People can't just glue an SGC slab back together and think it's fine. Testing a fiber will not generally ruin an item. Because you make an exception on an item (if you do) doesn't mean you MUST do it on any other item. Personally, I don't think extreme measures have been taken but some measures certainly have been.

[smokelessjoe]

This one has a 50/50 chance of being fake... Or has a binder analysis already been done?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

This one has a 50/50 chance of being fake... Or has a binder analysis already been done?

I got it off of the counter at the Peck and Snyder store. Next question.

[smokelessjoe]

Oh, probably a second generation then?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Oh, probably a second generation then?

First generation. I watched them make it.

[smokelessjoe]

ok, ok you got me Leon... I cannot beat that But did SGC let you in the room when they encapsulated it? Also, I think I see some overflow glue residue...

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Scott,
What scares me about your ideas regarding this is that if I follow your logic than I cannot trust or believe For Certain that any of the photos YOU own are real. Unfortunately at this time it is a fact that all of the photos you own could be fake. That is a fact and will remain a fact until you have this fiber analysis/testing done on everyone of them.
Shawn

Shawn - Spending many dozens of hours or much more (or paying someone else a large amount of money) to acquire the needed materials and then create a convincing forgery does not make economic sense for low or medium priced photos. Thus materials testing for such photos is not usually needed. Visual inspection by an experienced person is enough.

It does make economic sense to create an expensively made forgery for a $50k plus photo. In such cases materials testing should be expected by the collecting community. That fact that this may not be the view of most everyone is an indication of why collectors sometimes get what they deserve. Corey's lawsuit should be required reading.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by E93

With all due respect, I think this topic has run its course. I believe SRA have done their due diligence. If the winner choses to have further tests done that determine it to not be period, they can sue to get their money back if it comes to that. I doubt it would. Let's move it.
JimB

And what makes you think they would win? Saco River has made very clear what has been done to authenticate the piece, as well as what hasn't been done but could be. There has been comprehensive disclosure, and therefore a bidder knows exactly what the risks are and cannot possibly claim to have been deceived.

[Saco River Auction]

Originally Posted by Leon

And with all due respect Jim, maybe some folks don't think it's time to move on. As long as the discourse remains civil I see no harm in continuing the discussion. Saco has done a lot and if I were them I would have done even more. Just one bidder with deep pockets could easily mean 5 figures more in the realized price. I think there are a few deep pocketed collectors in this thread too. One other thing, I would suggest Troy brush up on what is customary in our hobby. Several things stated, concerning norms, are obviously not correct. It's not extraordinary to get more than a few expert opinions on a valuable item. People can't just glue an SGC slab back together and think it's fine. Testing a fiber will not generally ruin an item. Because you make an exception on an item (if you do) doesn't mean you MUST do it on any other item. Personally, I don't think extreme measures have been taken but some measures certainly have been.

Leon as I stated in a previous post we have an appointment to have the card re-slabbed. I have no need to "brush up" on your practices and customs. I am not a collector, I am simply direct communication between you all, and the auction hall ownership. I have done my job to the best of my abilities and have done what has been asked of me. We have been honest in all our disclosures on this card and in fact have disclosed alot more info than most auction halls would. We have also done more than any auction hall I know, and I know and work with many of them, including one of the best in the world located right here in Maine. Many of the readers on this post agree that auction halls never go through as many hoops as we have jumped through on this card. The halls you deal with might be different, but the norm is not to jump through a new hoop every time someone posts an alternate theory as to why this item is fake. We could have easily sold this card strictly with the SGC holder and it would have done fine. In Hindsight I wish we had done that, because the theories as to why this is"fake" has been rampant ever since. We went to disprove the Lelands assessment by going to Messier, but that wasn't good enough, because then the theories shifted from Lelands findings, to binder, to this being a stolen item etc. I could go through ten more tests(if they existed) and everyone would be demanding that five more be completed. Enough is enough! We are going to sell the item on Feb 6, it will go to a deserving collection for excellent money and we will move on to something else. If someone is not comfortable with this card, don't bid. I can guarantee that others will bid, and someone will have an absolute gem in their collection and all this talk will be for not. An auctioneer contacted me a short time ago to tell me that if this item was in a big sports auction house, that there would have never been any discussions on this and the card would bring huge money. I wonder if the issue is really with the card, or who is selling it?

Troy

[smokelessjoe]

Mark,

I do here your pain & your points lend themselves to an approach that only works with thieves with common sense. (to a certain degree)

You do have idiot thieves who make high-end forgeries of low end items - but wait a minute, maybe that makes them smart thieves...

Unfortunately Mark, your comment only works in the scenario you played out - that is not reality though... Very convincing forgeries Have been made for low or medium priced items and proved to be quite profitable.

Your comments still do not change the fact though that until materials testing is done on any photo, one cannot prove that it is not a fake regardless of the value.

Also, thousands of Expensive photos have been sold at BIG auctions over the years... I have never seen a chemical analysis in any of the auction catalogues nor do I recall us "Net54" ever crying out for one to be done?

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Saco River Auction

...An auctioneer contacted me a short time ago to tell me that if this item was in a big sports auction house, that there would have never been any discussions on this and the card would bring huge money. I wonder if the issue is really with the card, or who is selling it?

Troy

Troy, this discussion was started because the item was rejected by a "big sports auction house".

fyi, pretty much everybody in the hobby, big money or small, has been burned at some point. You have entered a very skeptical market. The fact that the consignor was willing do anything, except a binder test is a red flag period. To say that "big sports auctions" don't get the same treatment is ridiculous. Just check the recent thread about Mile High, and how the item was instantly removed.

You're right though, someone will pay big money for this item and possibly do no more testing. Maybe someone that doesn't know any better.

[atx840]

I have no clue on this item but its gotten enough attention I figured I would take a look. This is based off a very low res scan but as best as I can align the two the wood paneling does not line up, looks like a slight adjustment of the photographer to the right in the SRA version.

[oldjudge]

Chris--are you saying that there were two different negatives?

[atx840]

There is definitely a difference..whatever that means..

[atx840]

Can I get a higher res scan of the other known example?

[Matthew H]

Nice work Chris!