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Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
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  #1  
Old 07-31-2002, 11:44 AM
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Posted By: James Walker, Jr.

Check it out ...

http://www.msnbc.com/news/784132.asp?pne=msn

My favorite part ...

eBay spokesperson Kevin Pursglove concedes auction con artists have become more clever in recent months. But he says fraud rates are still a tiny fraction of eBay’s 7 million items on sale each day, and the rate has stayed stable.
“Clearly what we have seen in last year or so are attempts by individuals to be far more sophisticated,” he said. “That’s in part because ... eBay is getting better at detecting fraud activity.... We have made huge advances compared to two years ago.” Pursglove said the company often removes fraudulent auctions even before they get in front of consumers.

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  #2  
Old 07-31-2002, 11:50 AM
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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

I wonder who eBay paid to have it written? Several of us RIGHT HERE ON THIS BOARD pointed eBay Safe Harbor to a clear example of shill bidding and fraud. They did nothing about it, they were more interested in protecting their shill bidding Power Seller than anything else. What a load of crap. They couldn't detect fraud if they were a victim of it themselves, but, the truth is, they make big bucks of off fraud on their system and ignore it when it's reported to them.

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  #3  
Old 07-31-2002, 12:55 PM
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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...but ULTIMATELY it's up to an INDIVIDUAL to safeguard himself. Bear me out. Take for example, a city like NY (the 5 Boroughs). How many personnel make up the workforce of individuals designed to safeguard us from ANY type of criminal activity? Just factor STREET level. Police, auxillary police, Civillain patrol, security personnel of any kind whatsoever, etc. I would have to very conservatively guess at LEAST 50,000 and the actual number is most probably MULTIPLES of that estimate! And THAT work and volunteer force's main function is to safeguard the lives and belongings of over 10 million people!
Now, how many auctions are submitted per year on Ebay. Let's imagine that the number is 10 million. How effectively do you imagine Ebay's "police and security" can be in protecting the consumer in each and every case unless their workforce hired to do so were at least, say 5,000? And going back to our NYC example..how effective is the anti-crime force in eliminating it whatsoever? Even with an estimated force of 50,000?
Ebay GIVES us 99% of the necessary tools to protect ourselves. Search engines, feedback ratings, etc. We can use these research tools, apply some common sense, and drastically reduce our chances of being victims. Just as if you decide to take a walk down DARK, desolated streets at 3AM, waving your pocketbook in the air, you're taking abnormal risks and you CAN'T expect immediate HELP when thugs accost you, the same logic applies if there's a seller auctioning a 1933G Ruth found in Uncle Jimmy's old Vaudeville trunk, with no reserve in a 3 day auction and he has a feedback of 3 positives in a 2 week old account, all indicating purchases of CDs or Sega game cartridges. You PASS!! You assess the situation..and you PASS. Common sense keeps us from harm. Sense of self preservation and using our brain keeps us from harm...NOT just the police force. It's GOOD that they are there if we choose incorrectly, but they can't be expected to always be in the right place at the right time. WE have to help the police protect US by helping ourselves using deductive reasoning and a little common sense. And if you sense "danger", for Chris'sakes, don't just STAND there...MOVE!

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  #4  
Old 07-31-2002, 01:32 PM
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Posted By: petecld

I'm sorry, I HAD to respond to your post.

YOU stated: "Ebay GIVES us 99% of the necessary tools to protect ourselves. Search engines, feedback ratings, etc."

This coming from a man who has BOTH private bidder names and PRIVATE FEEDBACK!

I was having a lousy day I truely needed the laugh you gave me, thank you.

If you believe that feedback is a toll for protecting the buyer then might that explain why you don't want anyone seeing yours?

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  #5  
Old 07-31-2002, 01:50 PM
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Posted By: Dr.Koos

..that you find this post humorous. It casts your intellect in a dim light. What's my record Pete? What are those little things next to my name on the feedback page? NUMBERS!!!! What are they Pete? Positives and negatives. 605 Positives and ONE RETALIATORY NEGATIVE which is in the process of being removed by Safe Harbor as we "speak". But of course you feel that Scott and his ilk (yourself included, don't be shy!) should have a free reign to stalk up and down my bidders and winners lists form ALL past auctions in order to harrass and spam them. Sorry Pete, it's an Ebay option. With 605 positives against 1 retaliatory negative, I MUST be up to no good. RIGHT? BRILLIANT deductive reasoning, Sherlock!

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  #6  
Old 07-31-2002, 02:11 PM
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Posted By: Dr.Koos

..wherever you are. PETE!!! PEEEEEEEEEEEEEE...oh' there you are. Were you sleeping? It's taking you THIS long to prepare a crude attempt at sarcastic wit? OK!..Go ahead, you work on it, I'll leave you alone.

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  #7  
Old 07-31-2002, 02:31 PM
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Posted By: Julie Vognar

I won, against healthy bidding, a '34 Goudey Frisch. The guy just put some sort of mild filter in front of it so it wouldn't knock our eyes out. It's a carefully doctored reoprint. What's ebay supposed to do about that?

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  #8  
Old 07-31-2002, 02:45 PM
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Posted By: scott

As someone who collects (again) baseball cards because it (usually) is an enjoyable way to spend time, I would offer that this is the type of thing that keeps people AWAY from the hobby.

If the card was once sold as altered by a respected hobby source and the current owner is knowledgeable of that recommendation, then simply please put it in the item description ALONG with any other opinion that you or someone you deem a respected source has on the card.

Being out of the hobby for a number of years, I don't know the story behind the card or who/when/where/how much the card has been sold for in the past. But the whole scenario kind of reminds me of when the screw down holders first arrived on the scene (about the same time the corners became more important than the actual card) and there were those that would literally get vises to clamp down the card to "flatten out" those corners - then sell the card as NRMT. I know a number of very disappointed collectors that curtailed their buying because of this type of thing. This is the type of thing that spawned "grading services" - and I view some of the grading services as nothing more than the new way to "flatten out" today's cards. Its one thing to use the knowledge acquired over the years to one's benefit in the positive sense - ie "finds". Its quite another to use knowledge in a negative or misleading sense.

Looking forward to seeing some good stuff in Chicago.

Regards

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  #9  
Old 07-31-2002, 04:45 PM
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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...Ebay CAN'T be expected to do anything about it, anymore than the police can find those expensive airbags that came off your car once they're GONE and after applying your deductable STILL cost you $500 to replace! It happens. Do you have a copy of the auction? There MAY have been telltale signs that the auction was not what it seemed that you failed to recognize. THAT'S not completely your fault either. NOBODY can be vigilant 100% of the time. Average life expectancey would be 30 if our nervous systems were in heightened, adrenalized, red-alert mode at all times.
The most proposterous fact about the Mantle auction is that there IS NO VICTIM, and WILL BE NO VICTIM other than ME. Did you ever hear a message, "This is a test of the emergencey broadcast system..what you hear is a test..if this had been a real....etc."? I never heard anyone complain about this Broadcast test. I can understand 1 or 2 ducks lining up against me, but almost the entire Board who have taken their time to address me with the exception of Leon and Harry, who are gentlemen enough to reserve sitting in judgement until the auction had run its course?

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  #10  
Old 07-31-2002, 04:45 PM
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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...Ebay CAN'T be expected to do anything about it, anymore than the police can find those expensive airbags that came off your car once they're GONE and after applying your deductable STILL cost you $500 to replace! It happens. Do you have a copy of the auction? There MAY have been telltale signs that the auction was not what it seemed that you failed to recognize. THAT'S not completely your fault either. NOBODY can be vigilant 100% of the time. Average life expectancey would be 30 if our nervous systems were in heightened, adrenalized, red-alert mode at all times.
The most proposterous fact about the Mantle auction is that there IS NO VICTIM, and WILL BE NO VICTIM other than ME. Did you ever hear a message, "This is a test of the emergencey broadcast system..what you hear is a test..if this had been a real....etc."? I never heard anyone complain about this Broadcast test. I can understand 1 or 2 ducks lining up against me, but almost the entire Board who have taken their time to address me with the exception of Leon and Harry, who are gentlemen enough to reserve sitting in judgement until the auction had run its course?

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  #11  
Old 07-31-2002, 05:06 PM
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Posted By: petecld

You hold such an insignificant sliver of interest in my life it truly is a tough decision deciding if you're worth the time it takes me to type a response.

This reply just wasted 35 seconds of my time. 33 seconds more then you are worth.

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  #12  
Old 07-31-2002, 05:53 PM
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Posted By: TBob

<<<but almost the entire Board who have taken their time to address me with the exception of Leon and Harry, who are gentlemen enough to reserve sitting in judgement until the auction had run its course? Dr. Koos>>

Not true. There are a lot of board regulars like myself who didn't post.
As far as your Ebay arguments you are forgetting one vital factor- the new guy who wants to get involved in card collecting, a place we all were at one time. A lot of new collectors who go to ebay go under the innocent assumption that if a card is listed on ebay it must be legit, not trimmed, altered or a reproduction. They buy and are screwed. Many never return to the hobby because of their disenchantment. When ebay has knowledge of a seller's disreputable ways and continues to allow that seller to operate on ebay either under the same user i.d. or a new handle, ebay is not merely negligent, they are a party to fraud. I can't tell you how many times I have received thank you emails from newbies and even some old hands who were about to be shafted on ebay by crooked sellers ebay knew about and took no action against. John, Pete, Frank and others have all shared similar stories with me. Ebay needs to thank the guys on this board, not ignore them.

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  #13  
Old 07-31-2002, 06:14 PM
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Posted By: jay berhens

let's continue with your eBay-law enforcement analogy...If I walk into my local law enforcement office and hand them detailed evidence that would stand up in any court of a crime, they do not tell me sorry, that's not enough, they will actually take the time to investigate and hand it off to the DA for prosecution. eBay on the other hand does nothing, even when handed overwhelming evidence. Hell, they didn't even have to use their software (if it really exists) or their manpower to uncover the fraud. Yet they still decided that there was no crime being committed. How do you think a DA would last if they responded like that?

Jay

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  #14  
Old 07-31-2002, 06:44 PM
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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...no disrespect intended to those who DIDN'T post against me, like yourself, ANOTHER true gentleman who sits in judgement ONLY when presented with ALL the facts. What I said was something to the effect of, " those who CHOSE to POST against me without waiting for all the facts to be presented". MANY Board members DIDN'T post against me because they KNEW better (for example, YOU, Leon, BCD, MW, BW, Mike Williams, Elliot, Harry, etc.). If I were picking a jury, THESE are the type of people I would want in the jury box to evaluate my client's guilt or innocence. NOT irate individuals who only have to be presented with the evidence and the accused and are ready to progress to the penalty phase. In other words, those that reserved judgement had a shred of FAITH, I am very appreciative of and I was in NO way referring to ALL the Board members as a whole. They KNEW that there is a mitigating factor behind my posting of the card. A purpose, OTHER than deliberately defrauding someone on it, which CANNOT BE REVEALED at this point. THAT'S why I kept saying, "No comment until the friggin' (@T-Bob) time limit is up".
Now if someone wants to extend me an ounce of courteousy, I'll give back a pound of it, but if someone wants to be unpleasant, they'll get THAT back as well..with compounded interest. I'm a man of extremes. Anything worth doing is worth OVERdoing.

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  #15  
Old 07-31-2002, 09:09 PM
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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...a law enforcement agencey. They DON'T have a real police force with an Ebay DA's office across the street to submit evidence to Grand Jurys. The point of my post was merely that an Ebayer will substantially increase his odds of a favorable outcome if he avails himself of the tools that Ebay makes available to determine the odds of any apparent risk.

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  #16  
Old 07-31-2002, 09:23 PM
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Posted By: Tim

I agree with TBOB 100% about being the new guy getting into card collecting and feeling like a kid in a candy store when they first log into eBay. I was the new guy a year ago. I had been out of card collecting for some 15 odd years with the reason ranging from being a poor college student to I was TOO dam* sick of all of the new card commpanies and numerous new sets flooding the market with millions of dupes of every player. They were all out just to make a buck. If there ever was a time to put cards in the spokes of tires it would be from the 80s to the present time. Back then I was also sick and tired of athletes getting into trouble with drugs and various other stuff so NOW I stick mainly to vintage cards and put FEAR into other bidders in E card auctions! I have had to go through the ropes of learing what the hell card grading was and not to mention which ones may or may not be reputable. I have had my share of experiences with NASA and PRO and now don't even give those cards and cut-outs a second glance if even a first! I can honestly say that since I have gotten back into card collecting that I have thought about giving up again with all of the crooked sh*t that one has to deal with on eBay and in the card collecting world. This board has been a very big help and I hope things stay that way. I feel that I have made some good friends even though I am yet to meet any of you in person.

Tim

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  #17  
Old 07-31-2002, 09:26 PM
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Posted By: jay behrens

thanks for the responses. I jsut further proves what an idiot you truly are.

Guess you better rethink your posts and make sure you willing to stand behind the analogies you use. Then again, you won't stand behind the legitmacy of what you sell, so I won't hold my breath.

Jay

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  #18  
Old 08-01-2002, 01:31 AM
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Posted By: benge610

I'm right there with you, Bob. I don't post frequently and quite often use this board for resource and "good reading" (used very loosely ... lately). I believe the honorable thing to do is to make every attempt possible at warning an unsuspecting bidder of a scam; and notify the auction service also. But speaking from personal experience, that is good enough. I didn't start in vintage collecting by blindly bidding on eBay crap hoping to strike it rich. I researched the hobby; located Mike and Jim's Fullcount board; talked to dealers at shows; focused on specific areas of interest and researched some more! I don't feel too sorry for unsuspecting schmucks, because in some ways they get what they deserve. I think the members here do an excellent job of warning those "unsuspectings" and that's good enough by me; it's too bad that newbies get a bad taste of the hobby by getting tangled up with scammers, but how gullible are they? and what are their real intentions when getting into the vintage market, anyway? Looking to strike it rich on a great deal or looking to really "get into" the vintage part of the hobby? Just my opinion, but really "getting into" the hobby for enjoyment and collecting REQUIRES an accumulation of knowledge before diving in. I've been mildly "burned", but honestly, if I had done a little more homework before bidding .....

Just some sporadic ramblings.

I say "Doc" vs. MW for the blathering championship of the world!

Ben.

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  #19  
Old 08-01-2002, 02:21 AM
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Posted By: MW (or, Ben's conscience)

Blathering?

No need for much input from me, Ben. You've already got a pretty good start.

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  #20  
Old 08-01-2002, 04:05 AM
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Posted By: vorthian

<< I stick mainly to vintage cards and put FEAR into other bidders in E card auctions! >>

I FEAR your esnipe bill!

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  #21  
Old 08-01-2002, 05:54 AM
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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...And as the sun slowly rises in the EAST, once again, Jay wrestles furiously with his last remaining brain cells (more dilithium crystals, Cap'n) to piece together a post somewhat resembling grammatical use of the English language, that is designed to prove jSut what an idiot I am.

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  #22  
Old 08-01-2002, 10:32 AM
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Posted By: benge610

Thanks Michael; lack of sleep tends to heighten my blathering skills. It's good to hear from you.

Ben.

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  #23  
Old 08-01-2002, 10:52 AM
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Posted By: Brueso

If this is a temporary auction, you are still tying up some bidder's resources that they could spend on legitimate auctions. But of course "whatever is best for you" (that is your motto, isn't it?)

And there are numerous other huckersters out there like yourself who were "driven" to be scam artists- who knows why- there's always some excuse- who also have crystal clean e-bay feedback until word starts getting around on them. I doubt highly anyone on this board will ever buy anything in an auction you run.

It's pathetic that you assume that if some members of this board don't wish to comment on you that that is proof that they haven't concluded what the rest of us have about you.

If you want to be treated like a gentleman- try acting like one. Heal thyself, Doc- you need it.

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  #24  
Old 08-01-2002, 10:57 AM
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Posted By: ME

Universtity of Night School, Open 24 Hrs?

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  #25  
Old 08-01-2002, 12:09 PM
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Posted By: MW

On occasion, I've blathered too

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  #26  
Old 08-01-2002, 02:22 PM
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Posted By: Dr.Koos

....PLEASE... Let your mind go blank. I suspect that you may have blown a bearing and will incur irrepairable harm if you attempt to think once again.

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  #27  
Old 08-01-2002, 03:07 PM
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Posted By: Brueso

"irrepairable"? Well, there's another stone for your glass house, Doc.

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  #28  
Old 08-01-2002, 03:52 PM
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Posted By: jay berhens

anyone that has been around eBay for any length of time knows that feedback is almost meaningless. Most people are too afraid to leave negative feedback beucase they might get a retaliatory negative in return. So the fact that you have 'great' feedback means nothing. It prolly means that other people you ahve screwed over were just afraid to leave the proper feedback for you becuase they feared you would leave negative feedback in return event hough you shafted them.

Jay

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  #29  
Old 08-01-2002, 11:02 PM
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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...ANOTHER test to see if you knew how to use a dictionEry, or if your esteemed colleague was anslating-tray osts-pay into pig-latin for you!

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  #30  
Old 08-06-2002, 05:45 PM
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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...means NOTHING?". Keep in mind that others don't have your soothsayer's gift to ascertain the future of transacting with a seller that you haven't conducted business with previously, by donning gay-apparel (no pun intended!), a muskrat stuffed cinderblock hat and noting the thrown position of chicken bones.

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  #31  
Old 08-06-2002, 06:03 PM
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Posted By: English...from me no less!!!!

the use of "irregardless" is the same. It may not be in the dictionary but because it communicates the idea,it is technically a word.

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  #32  
Old 08-06-2002, 07:20 PM
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Posted By: MW

The Ancient Viking alphabet is far more mystical than chicken bones. I would suggest runes.

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  #33  
Old 08-06-2002, 07:33 PM
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Posted By: MW

"Irrepairable" is not an idiom and is not a word. It is not in any standard dictionary. The word you are thinking of is "irreparable," which is indeed standard and quite different than "irregardless." "Irregardless" is nonstandard and is sometimes improperly substituted for regardless.

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  #34  
Old 08-06-2002, 09:17 PM
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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...so, stop comparing the two. People on here keep saying "eBay cannot be responsible for the fraud or for going after those committing fraud on eBay, anymore than we can blame the police for not catching Car Prowlers who steal airbags out of your cars, etc."

This is a ridiculous analysis/comparison. Why? Because eBay owns and operates the system on which we participate in the auctions. They have policies which are meant to protect bidders. They state they will go after fraudulent persons, shill bidders, and so on. Then, when we give them a shill bidder's head on a plaque, with all the evidence, they ignore it. That is the crap that must be reconciled. The police don't OWN their systems and don't allow certain people in and not others. The justice system over the police do that, and they play by way different rules.

I'm NOT saying people shouldn't be stupid. I'm not saying people shouldn't be cautious. But, not everyone bidding is a professional collector. Not everyone bidding knows the crappola history of PRO, AAA, and the like. Not everyone can look at a 1915 Cracker Jack Card and tell the difference between that card and a reprint made 10 years later.

I AM saying that people who intentially commit fraud, deception and misrepresentation should be called on it, they should be punished for it, they should be suspended from eBay for it, they should (in some cases) be charged criminally for it.

EBay is responsible because it is THEIR SYSTEM which they own which is being used as a vehicle for it. If they ignore that fact, when the evidence is placed before them, then they are guilty, too. ESPECIALLY since they profit also from that fraud, especially when that fraud takes in a high dollar value, their percentage is then higher, thus making them a willing, profiting accomplice.

Any way you slice it, they have a responsibility to protect bidders. They are a profitable company and can afford to increase those services to protect their clients who use (and pay to use) their system, since their own policies state that this is what they guarantee. Pretty simple math.

Back to the police analogy, the police don't own the systems in which people commit crimes. They just try to do what they can, after the fact, to find the perps. Sometimes they are lucky and stumble upon a crime when it is happening. Not often. EBay usually has 7 days of the criminal activity to look at while it is happening. And, 90 days afterward while it still sits on THEIR system. (And, probably longer in an archive somewhere). If you provide a vehicle of commerce such as this, you had better believe you have some responsibility not only for its content, but the conduct of the people using it when you both make money from it.

-dan

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