Is there a shilling cartel?

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Posted By: Big Ed (not walsh)

Do dealers do each other a "solid" on a regular basis? I am repulsed when I see bidder number 2 (or whatever) with 6 or more bid retractions in the last 6 months. Though the seller may have nothing to do with it, I avoid sellers with regular activity as such. Is this unfair?

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Posted By: Cobby33

I think it depends on how badly you want/need the card.

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Posted By: Big Ed (not walsh)

I always guessed it was about exploiting and boosting demand above the supply curve. (Somehow I pulled an economics minor out of a beer major.)

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Posted By: davidcycleback

My as a general rule guess is that dealers wouldn't shill in other dealers' auctions. Most dealers are competitive and don't want competing dealers to receive higher prices than they do, whether the pricers are real or imaginary. It would be like asking a home run hitter to help pad the the home run totals of a competitor.

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Posted By: T E

If a seller has a pattern of retractions by a multiple bidder, where it looks like the intent was to find out what the high bidder's actual high was, but the seller was excellent in all other aspects, I would be very cautious. You know the seller has a sleazy side to him/her. Set a number that you think is a good price, make your bid, and walk away. If you win, great, but under no circumstances, in the scenario I just outlined, would I get into a bidding war.

That is probably the best argument for a single snipe bid at closing. As a seller (easthamptonauctions), I hate snipes, but they do make me money!

If a seller has a clear pattern of retractions where it is obvious that shill bidding was going on, I'd steer clear.

Before you make a judgement, make sure there is a pattern, not just one or two events. I remember once a bidder bid an auction of mine up crazy high, then canceld their last bid, leaving someone else with the high bid at an inflated rate. I looked at the pattern of bids and I said, "Jeez, this looks like shill bidding- and it's my own auction!"

In answer to your title question, no, I don't think there are cartels, but obviously, sleazy types will find a way around the rules if they are so inclined. To me, it is really bad karma to do such things.

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Posted By: Steve f

There are groups, not specifically card guys, that help each other out. I read this many months ago and found it to be quite organized.

http://tinyurl.com/ynvalm

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Posted By: Rob

Seems like Maestro, Memory Lane, Edwards and every other auction house around could shill, as they commonly have the "15 minute rule". Which means the consignor could try to engage someone in a bidding war if the closing time bid of an item was low. I observed in my hometown an auctioneer bid on other auction house items to keep the price up on certain items.

On the other hand, Ebay only gives a set ending time, allowing for snipe bids to be entered. What you have on a rare and desirable item is essentially blind bidding, as snipers don't usually have time to put in a 2nd bid at the end of an auction. An example: I put in a high $30 bid on an item with 10 seconds left, which was sniped with a $250 and $255 bids. If only one of those bids were there, the item goes for $31. I could had went higher with more time, and would had went higher than $31 for a bidding war, if Ebay was a real auction.

At most, someone can provide a hidden reserve on an item with a given bid (perhaps 1 of those $245+ bids was a reserve), as there are few bidding wars on items to drive up the price of an item. Bidders are generally sophisticated enough to give snipe bids or an incremental bid where shilling can't be effective.

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Posted By: Larry

What is going on at Ebay right now is that powersellers are using separate bidding accounts to eliminate the competition. If an item identical to theirs is being auctioned at the same time, they use their "other account" to bid the competitors item so high that no one will bid above it. Then the bidders will naturally try to win the powerseller's item. Then when the "bogus winning bidder" is invoiced/contacted, the seller never hears a peep out of them and has to file NPB, contact the second place bidder or relist, etc. The bad thing is that these scumbags have to get about a dozen NPBs within 30 days before Ebay will take action, and proving that the accounts are fraudulent is next to impossible. Not to mention that if you give them a negative, they will retaliate in a heartbeat.
My blocked bidder list is full of these scumbags.

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Posted By: Rob

To make your item seem reasonable. But I can think of ways to neutralize that from happening. If an item is common enough for a competitor to run up the price, then simply end an auction to sell at the current bid, or use a BIN, or use a store and list at slightly (not grossly) above market price ,to account for the higher commission fees. As for FB, never leave a negative till after you get your fees refunded, so you don't get retaliatory FB.

But we are talking about a common T206 PSA 3 type item here. Frankly, I don't know why people even bother with auctions with such items, the market prices are narrow enough to just simply list something with a BIN at the upper end of the price range.

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Posted By: Larry

What good will it do to wait until you receive your final value fee refund and they get an NPB strike before leaving negative feedback? They will still retaliate as long as they aren't NARU'd off the site. And trying to get the negative removed is an exercise in futility. It's a plea falling on deaf eBay ears.