NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:06 PM
rhettyeakley's Avatar
rhettyeakley rhettyeakley is offline
Rhett Yeakley
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,650
Default Morris & Trammell Elected to HOF

Title says it all. Good players but both borderline in my opinion. Not upset I just feel there are more deserving cases out there.
-Rhett
__________________
Check out my YouTube Videos highlighting VINTAGE CARDS https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbE..._as=subscriber

ebay store: kryvintage-->https://www.ebay.com/sch/kryvintage/...p2047675.l2562

Last edited by rhettyeakley; 12-10-2017 at 06:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:11 PM
Kzoo's Avatar
Kzoo Kzoo is offline
Matt
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 909
Default I'm happy

I thought Morris had a really good chance today, but thought Tram would fall a little short.

In my opinion, they both would have been elected years ago if they played for the Yankees and had more hard core media coverage during their careers.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:11 PM
HRBAKER's Avatar
HRBAKER HRBAKER is offline
Jeff
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 5,255
Default

underwhelmed, but it's a good day in Detroit
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page

HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos

"Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years."
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:23 PM
rhettyeakley's Avatar
rhettyeakley rhettyeakley is offline
Rhett Yeakley
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,650
Default

Honestly, of the Tigers of that era I always felt like Lou Whitaker was the most deserving of the bunch, not sure why he never had the potential HOF buzz around him Trammell always did.
__________________
Check out my YouTube Videos highlighting VINTAGE CARDS https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbE..._as=subscriber

ebay store: kryvintage-->https://www.ebay.com/sch/kryvintage/...p2047675.l2562
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:26 PM
CMIZ5290 CMIZ5290 is offline
KEVIN MIZE
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: VALDOSTA, GA.
Posts: 6,301
Default Hof

Pitiful....If these guys get in, how in the Hell does Dale Murphy not get in????
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:39 PM
bobbvc's Avatar
bobbvc bobbvc is offline
Bob B.
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 917
Default

The argument "If you're not in on the first ballot, then you're not a HOFER" is making more sense as the years go by. And I like Trammell. I know it takes the voters a few years sometimes to get it right, but maybe the Hall needs a new wing for first balloteers at this point.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:40 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,268
Default

That 3.90 ERA does not sit particularly well. Not that sabremetrics are everything but per JAWS Morris ranks as the 164th best pitcher of all time. Right behind Jon Matlack.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:42 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,268
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbvc View Post
The argument "If you're not in on the first ballot, then you're not a HOFER" is making more sense as the years go by. And I like Trammell. I know it takes the voters a few years sometimes to get it right, but maybe the Hall needs a new wing for first balloteers at this point.
That's my view. If you have to really debate it and think long and hard about it, and vote on it year after year after year, the answer is probably no.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 12-10-2017 at 06:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:50 PM
CMIZ5290 CMIZ5290 is offline
KEVIN MIZE
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: VALDOSTA, GA.
Posts: 6,301
Default

Dale Murphy won back to back MVP awards for the worst team in baseball. He is also a huge ambassador for the game....He is deserving of the HOF IMO....

Last edited by CMIZ5290; 12-10-2017 at 06:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:01 PM
EYECOLLECTVINTAGE's Avatar
EYECOLLECTVINTAGE EYECOLLECTVINTAGE is offline
Stephen
Stephen Abb.ondandolo
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: NY
Posts: 2,367
Default

Wait what? I'm so confused. Jack Morris wasn't even good. Bad whip and off and on era. Not a strike out pitcher and only 234 wins? I have to be missing something. That's like legitimately mediocre.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:03 PM
ejharrington ejharrington is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 598
Default

If those two are in then Keith Hernandez and Curt Schilling have to be in also.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:07 PM
sycks22's Avatar
sycks22 sycks22 is offline
Pete Sycks
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4,453
Default

Happy to see the best World Series game pitched pitcher going in the Hall.
__________________
My website with current cards

http://syckscards.weebly.com


Always looking for 1938 Goudey's
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:08 PM
paul's Avatar
paul paul is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,331
Default

Jack Morris has the worst ERA of any Hall of Fame pitcher. Worse even than the pitchers who played in 1930 when the league batting average was .300.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:11 PM
paul's Avatar
paul paul is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,331
Default

I finally found the vote totals here:

https://baseballhall.org/news/modern...t-results-2018

Ted Simmons fell one vote short. No one else was close.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:12 PM
mattsey9's Avatar
mattsey9 mattsey9 is offline
Mike Mattsey
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 631
Default

Lost in all the hoopla, Ted Simmons was only one vote away from the HOF.
__________________
Nationals attended: 4 (3with Otis)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:21 PM
Shoeless Moe Shoeless Moe is offline
Paul Gruszka aka P Diddy, Cambo, Fluke, Jagr, PG13, Bon Jokey, Paulie Walnuts
Pa.ul Grus.zka
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Over by there
Posts: 4,691
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sycks22 View Post
Happy to see the best World Series game pitched pitcher going in the Hall.
Madison Bumgarner got in?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:29 PM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 View Post
Dale Murphy won back to back MVP awards for the worst team in baseball. He is also a huge ambassador for the game....He is deserving of the HOF IMO....
The Braves won their division in 1982 and finished 3 games back, 2nd place, in 1983.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:30 PM
OldOriole OldOriole is offline
D@ve Se@born
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 262
Default Correction

Quote:
Originally Posted by EYECOLLECTVINTAGE View Post
Wait what? I'm so confused. Jack Morris wasn't even good. Bad whip and off and on era. Not a strike out pitcher and only 234 wins? I have to be missing something. That's like legitimately mediocre.
Not that I think wins are a good statistic to use for entry into the HOF, but it's 254 wins, not 234.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:31 PM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe View Post
Madison Bumgarner got in?
No, Don Larsen.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:35 PM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldOriole View Post
Not that I think wins are a good statistic to use for entry into the HOF, but it's 254 wins, not 234.
Tommy John, Jim Kaat and Mike Mussina should be getting in soon. I don't see how you can elect Morris and not those 3.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:42 PM
OldOriole OldOriole is offline
D@ve Se@born
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 262
Default Slippery Slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
Tommy John, Jim Kaat and Mike Mussina should be getting in soon. I don't see how you can elect Morris and not those 3.
I'm certainly not a big fan of today's vote, especially for Morris. You're absolutely right, it opens up the door for those who would argue for enshrinement of players who only deserve to be in the Hall of Very Good (although, I do like Mussina - highest WAR of any eligible player not in the HOF).

I was just pointing out that I didn't think Wins were a great stat to use when judging (for a variety of reasons) and if you're gonna use it, at least check the total
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:49 PM
OldOriole OldOriole is offline
D@ve Se@born
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 262
Default One Other Thing

I should also point out that the BBWAA takes a beating for the Hall of Fame being watered down, and there are some great examples for this. However, the Veteran's Committee (in it's various forms) has voted in many more players than the writers have. The BBWAA has elected 124 candidates, while the various Committees have elected 195 (including the two today).

Maybe the new format for the Committees will help, who knows. But as a vintage card collector, it bothers me that the Committee dealing with players from the pre-WWII era only meets once a decade while the Committee that met today will meet again in two years and, apparently, twice every five years.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:50 PM
seanofjapan's Avatar
seanofjapan seanofjapan is offline
Sean McGinty
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Japan
Posts: 501
Default

I am fine with both of them going in.

You can argue about whether we should have a "small hall" with only first balloters (or guys about who there is no debate) or a "big hall" with more guys who wouldn't meet that standard. But there is no debate that what we have now is closer to the "big hall" model based on past inductions than it is to the "small hall" model.

I'm not really sure why this is such an issue anyway, even though there is no formal distinction every serious fan knows that there is a core-periphery spectrum within the Hall and Jack and Alan are both going to be taking seats among the more peripheral members. And among that group they are far from being the worst, so their induction does nothing to lower the standards of the Hall (yeah Morris has the highest ERA, but that is just using the weakest part of his resume against him - he has enough other stuff on there to make up for that).
__________________
My blog about collecting cards in Japan: https://baseballcardsinjapan.blogspot.jp/
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:52 PM
orly57's Avatar
orly57 orly57 is offline
Orlando Rodriguez
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Miami
Posts: 979
Default

Regardless of where you stand on steroid-era guys getting into the Hall, I think we can agree that with no Bonds, no Pete Rose, no Joe Jackson, and no Roger Clemens, the HOF has lost its luster. Nothing against these new inductees, but they aren't in the same stratosphere as many guys who aren't in Cooperstown and probably never will be.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-10-2017, 08:22 PM
insidethewrapper's Avatar
insidethewrapper insidethewrapper is offline
Mike
member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,345
Default

Congratulations to both Morris and Trammell, the 1978 Topps Set just went up in value. The Molitor/Trammell HOF Rookie Card. That doesn't happen often !

If Phil Rizzuto is in, then most should be in the HOF. If only the Ruth's and Cobb's were in, the Hall would be very empty. Still only a few hundred of the almost 20,000 players (1-2%) of all players. I don't think it is watered down yet.
__________________
Wanted : Detroit Baseball Cards and Memorabilia ( from 19th Century Detroit Wolverines to Detroit Tigers Ty Cobb to Al Kaline).
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-10-2017, 08:35 PM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,494
Default

Steve Garvey was an All-Star eight years in a row and during that period finished in the top six in the MVP vote five times. He was a dominant player of his era. I don't see how Morris gets in and he doesn't.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-10-2017, 08:53 PM
billyb's Avatar
billyb billyb is offline
Bill Boyd
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Gladwin, Mi, (God's country)
Posts: 1,074
Default

Personally, I am thrilled about Trammell making it into the hall of fame. Yes his offensive stats are questionable. I got the pleasure of watching Trammell play during his entire career and to appreciate him not just as a player, but as a person. A leader on the 1984 team, as he was named team captain over strong personalities like Gibson and Parrish. But he kept his entire career unsullied of any kind. Just his defensive achievements, along with Lou Whitaker, as the longest double play combination in the history of the game. They completed more double plays then any other combination in the game. And both averaged over 280 for their career.
If you look at the players that support Trammell, that says more then anything else. He was well respected through the league. Hats off to Alan Trammell. You can match numbers to Trammell all you want, but you can't match many players to his professionalism.

Morris, I cannot agree more with all of you.
__________________
Norm Cash message to his pitchers, the day after one of his evenings on the town. "If you can hold em till the seventh, I'll be ready"
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-10-2017, 09:03 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Trammell deserves to be in the Hall. Jack Morris is pretty much a joke.

Tom C
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-10-2017, 09:09 PM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
Steve Garvey was an All-Star eight years in a row and during that period finished in the top six in the MVP vote five times. He was a dominant player of his era. I don't see how Morris gets in and he doesn't.
It certainly opens it up for Garvey, Murphy and Mattingly from this group to be elected over the next few ballots by this committee. Simmons looks like a lock for the next ballot.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-10-2017, 09:17 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,268
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldOriole View Post
I'm certainly not a big fan of today's vote, especially for Morris. You're absolutely right, it opens up the door for those who would argue for enshrinement of players who only deserve to be in the Hall of Very Good (although, I do like Mussina - highest WAR of any eligible player not in the HOF).

I was just pointing out that I didn't think Wins were a great stat to use when judging (for a variety of reasons) and if you're gonna use it, at least check the total
Higher than Barry Bonds and Clemens????
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-10-2017, 09:18 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Great Fangraphs post here. He also did posts on the pitchers and the other candidates. Love how he mentions some of my cause celebre guys like Grich and Dwight Evans as well as some I feel need to get a longer look like Nettles and Reggie Smith and Darrell Evans.

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/mode...-lou-whitaker/

Tom C
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-10-2017, 09:19 PM
Marchillo Marchillo is offline
St3phen M@rchillo
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 693
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by orly57 View Post
Regardless of where you stand on steroid-era guys getting into the Hall, I think we can agree that with no Bonds, no Pete Rose, no Joe Jackson, and no Roger Clemens, the HOF has lost its luster. Nothing against these new inductees, but they aren't in the same stratosphere as many guys who aren't in Cooperstown and probably never will be.
Bonds and Clemens are slowly trending up as older voters fall off and new ones come on. They are getting in. I'd say 2 more years. Rose has been his own worst enemy in all of this but I'd like to see both those guys in as well.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-10-2017, 09:25 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,268
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
Great Fangraphs post here. He also did posts on the pitchers and the other candidates. Love how he mentions some of my cause celebre guys like Grich and Dwight Evans as well as some I feel need to get a longer look like Nettles and Reggie Smith and Darrell Evans.

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/mode...-lou-whitaker/

Tom C
Has Reggie Smith ever received a single vote? I'm sorry but I think if we're mentioning Reggie Smith and the HOF in the same breath we've reached the point of absurdity, not that we haven't already.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-10-2017, 09:27 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,268
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 View Post
Dale Murphy won back to back MVP awards for the worst team in baseball. He is also a huge ambassador for the game....He is deserving of the HOF IMO....
Huh? Kevin where are you coming up with this?
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-10-2017, 09:56 PM
sreader3 sreader3 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,222
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by insidethewrapper View Post
Congratulations to both Morris and Trammell, the 1978 Topps Set just went up in value. The Molitor/Trammell HOF Rookie Card. That doesn't happen often !
Yeah -- I thought about this too. Is there any other Topps multi-player rookie card with two Hall of Famers? If there is I'm drawing a blank . . . .
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:13 PM
Mark's Avatar
Mark Mark is offline
M@rk Lu7z
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: out west
Posts: 1,195
Default

Back in the day, Trammell was considered an elite player. A shortstop with an MVP and a 70 WAR is a pretty good candidate to get in, in my opinion.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-11-2017, 01:27 AM
Jenx34 Jenx34 is offline
Ch.ris Jenk.ins
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Birmingham AL
Posts: 383
Default

I must be stupid here because I don't see how in the hell Ted Simmons belongs nor has a resume than Don Mattingly. The ONLY argument for Simmons is longevity. Basically Simmons stats give him about a 3 year advantage over Mattingly, yet it took him 7 more years to get there.

Mattingly had 9 Gold Gloves, 3 Silver Sluggers, an MVP, a batting title, 2 other top 5 MVP finishes... What Mattingly didn't have was longevity due to a back injury. And he didn't have a World Series Title.

Simmons was a very good catcher. Give him a bump because catcher production isn't typically as high as a 1B.

One can argue whether Mattingly belongs, but those that watched him regularly, know well his value was far greater than the stats showed. His defense was as good as it gets for any 1B ever. But I can't fathom an argument where Ted Simmons is closer to a HOFer than Mattingly.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-11-2017, 01:30 AM
pclpads pclpads is offline
Dave Foster
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: left coast
Posts: 964
Default

Based on today's vote, guess there is still hope for Darryl Spencer and Ray Sadecki. LOL! The only way either new electee should get into the HOF is if they buy a ticket. Pity there is no HOF for the "very good." Both would make that hall.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-11-2017, 03:43 AM
kailes2872's Avatar
kailes2872 kailes2872 is offline
Kev1n @1les
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pittsburgh Area
Posts: 759
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
Steve Garvey was an All-Star eight years in a row and during that period finished in the top six in the MVP vote five times. He was a dominant player of his era. I don't see how Morris gets in and he doesn't.
During the time that I started watching baseball 1978/1979, there was no bigger star than Steve Garvey. Popeye arms, playing in LA, married to Cindy - you could not tell the story of baseball in the '70's without him. He went to San Diego and didn't have the longevity of others. However, I am convinced that if he stayed in Los Angeles with similar numbers - and maybe a couple of bad end of the career years to add to the counting stats, he walks in.

In my mind, similar with Parker. Along with George Foster, Rod Carew, George Brett and Garvey, they were the biggest stars. I measure this by the baseball books that I would buy at book fairs in elementary school that would tell the stories of the players of the day. He had his mid-80's resurgence with the Reds as well.

I don't begrudge Trammel and Morris - and the '91 WS game 7 is forever etched in my brain - but when I think about that era and the true stars - I think of Garvey and Parker.
__________________
2024 Collecting Goals:

53-55 Red Mans Complete Set
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-11-2017, 03:46 AM
glynparson's Avatar
glynparson glynparson is offline
Glyn Parson
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Blandon PA
Posts: 2,184
Default Very Happy with the vote

So tired of the flawed Hall Of Good argument. It isn't called the hall of great but the Hall of Fame. These were two of the more famous players of their era and both deserve their place in Cooperstown. This is a museum to tell the games history and celebrate its more accomplished players. These were two of the better players of their era and certainly both were very famous. Growing up I always thought of both as future hall of famers. Now i just need a few more greats from my youth to get in. For the record I would have absolutely loved it for Garvey and Parker to have gotten in, but like i said on another thread I honestly would not have minded if every single one of them had made it into the hall.

Also my late grandfather, Roy Tobias, was a huge fan of the Detroit Tigers. I am sure he is smiling down today very happy with these decisions.

Last edited by glynparson; 12-11-2017 at 04:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 12-11-2017, 04:20 AM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

The argument for Ted Simmons? Pick any way you possibly want to look at it. Career stats. WAR. JAWS. Anything. Simmons is one of the top 13 (arguably top ten) catchers in the history of the game. Wouldn't you say that that is deserving on enshrinement?

Morris is pretty much the same pitcher as David Wells. Come on now. Hall Of Fame? I can name 40 or 50 pitchers who belong in the Hall before Jack Morris.

Garvey was a first baseman with ok power who had to hit .300 to have value because otherwise he would never have been on base. Will Clark deserves to be there before Garvey.

Reggie Smith? Not saying he belongs. But go check his stats again and get back to me. Much better player than Steve Garvey.

Tom C
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-11-2017, 05:05 AM
soxinseven soxinseven is offline
Steven Sadler
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Salem, Ma.
Posts: 844
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kailes2872 View Post
During the time that I started watching baseball 1978/1979, there was no bigger star than Steve Garvey. Popeye arms, playing in LA, married to Cindy - you could not tell the story of baseball in the '70's without him. He went to San Diego and didn't have the longevity of others. However, I am convinced that if he stayed in Los Angeles with similar numbers - and maybe a couple of bad end of the career years to add to the counting stats, he walks in.

In my mind, similar with Parker. Along with George Foster, Rod Carew, George Brett and Garvey, they were the biggest stars. I measure this by the baseball books that I would buy at book fairs in elementary school that would tell the stories of the players of the day. He had his mid-80's resurgence with the Reds as well.

I don't begrudge Trammel and Morris - and the '91 WS game 7 is forever etched in my brain - but when I think about that era and the true stars - I think of Garvey and Parker.
Add Jim Rice to that list and those were my thoughts exactly. I still have some of those same books from my younger years. Good post...
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-11-2017, 05:42 AM
ccre's Avatar
ccre ccre is offline
Dave Wilson
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 762
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
Steve Garvey was an All-Star eight years in a row and during that period finished in the top six in the MVP vote five times. He was a dominant player of his era. I don't see how Morris gets in and he doesn't.
I agree 100%.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-11-2017, 06:06 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,268
Default

Mattingly's career numbers are pretty similar to Puckett's in a lot of respects. If you look at Baseball Reference for Puckett, they have Mattingly as the most similar batter, in fact.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 12-11-2017 at 06:07 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12-11-2017, 06:18 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,268
Default

In my opinion Tiant was clearly a better pitcher in his day than Morris was in his. Again, not that it's gospel, but by JAWS Tiant is 100+ places ahead of Morris in the all-time rankings, 51 and 164.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 12-11-2017, 07:08 AM
Marchillo Marchillo is offline
St3phen M@rchillo
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 693
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
In my opinion Tiant was clearly a better pitcher in his day than Morris was in his. Again, not that it's gospel, but by JAWS Tiant is 100+ places ahead of Morris in the all-time rankings, 51 and 164.
+100. Not sure why he doesn't gain more traction in these votes.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 12-11-2017, 07:27 AM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
The argument for Ted Simmons? Pick any way you possibly want to look at it. Career stats. WAR. JAWS. Anything. Simmons is one of the top 13 (arguably top ten) catchers in the history of the game. Wouldn't you say that that is deserving on enshrinement?

Morris is pretty much the same pitcher as David Wells. Come on now. Hall Of Fame? I can name 40 or 50 pitchers who belong in the Hall before Jack Morris.

Garvey was a first baseman with ok power who had to hit .300 to have value because otherwise he would never have been on base. Will Clark deserves to be there before Garvey.

Reggie Smith? Not saying he belongs. But go check his stats again and get back to me. Much better player than Steve Garvey.

Tom C
Bill James has pointed out recently how flawed WAR is. Isn't it time for you to admit it to? Dwight Evans has a negative dWAR. Shouldn't that tell you how flawed it is?

I lived in LA during Garvey's prime. He was better than Reggie Smith. Garvey was the guy who got the big hits, drove in the runs that wins games. 10 time All Star 5 time NL champion, 1 time WS champion, 1 time MVP, 2 time NLCS MVP and 4 time gold glove. Holds NL record for consecutive games without an error. From 1974-1980 averaged 200 hits 100 RBI and .300 BA. Claiming that Smith was better based on a flawed advanced metric is absurd. Glad this Veteran's Committee is willing to think for themselves and elect Jack Morris, ignoring WAR. It is the Hall of Fame not Hall of High WAR or High JAWS.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 12-11-2017, 07:32 AM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchillo View Post
+100. Not sure why he doesn't gain more traction in these votes.
World Series titles. If the Red Sox win in 1975, he would probably be in already. Also, Morris benefits from being the best pitcher in an era of bad pitching. Tiant was a better pitcher, but was overshadowed in one of the two great eras for pitchers. He definitely should get in some day. If we are talking about Mike Mussina or Roy Halladay as Hofers, Tiant is too.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 12-11-2017, 07:55 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,268
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
World Series titles. If the Red Sox win in 1975, he would probably be in already. Also, Morris benefits from being the best pitcher in an era of bad pitching. Tiant was a better pitcher, but was overshadowed in one of the two great eras for pitchers. He definitely should get in some day. If we are talking about Mike Mussina or Roy Halladay as Hofers, Tiant is too.
Sort of depends how tightly you define his era. He pitched 1977-1994. Clemens was there for what, 10 of those years? And Guidry's great years overlapped the first part of Morris' career.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 12-11-2017 at 07:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 12-11-2017, 08:14 AM
BradH's Avatar
BradH BradH is offline
Brad
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 498
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
The argument for Ted Simmons? Pick any way you possibly want to look at it. Career stats. WAR. JAWS. Anything. Simmons is one of the top 13 (arguably top ten) catchers in the history of the game. Wouldn't you say that that is deserving on enshrinement?
I absolutely agree with this. I don't get into WAR and JAWS, and had never really considered him in with all the greats, but a few years ago I started digging into Ted's numbers and they're pretty amazing for that era. And the fact that he was a switch hitter and a master handler of pitching staffs made him even more valuable, in my opinion.

One of the most sparse areas of the Hall of Fame are catchers from the 1960s to the early 1990s. You have Bench, Fisk and Carter representing a span of about 35 years? Simmons was a great player who happened to be a quiet guy who played his career for small-market franchises.

I'm happy for Trammell and Morris and disagree with most on here -- I think they both deserve it. Trammell was overshadowed by Yount and Ripken at the time, but opposing managers of the day felt he was easily the best fielder of the group and he became a well-respected hitter.

Morris made 14 straight opening day starts - and I know OD starts don't define a Hall of Famer, but it most definitely defines an "Ace." And his peers considered him an ace for a decade and a half. That says enough for me.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OT: No One Elected to the Hall? Jlighter Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 120 01-10-2013 03:19 PM
Santo elected to HOF Kenny Cole Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 54 12-06-2011 06:11 PM
Pat Gillick Elected bcbgcbrcb Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 24 12-07-2010 04:33 PM
No One Elected Again Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 81 03-09-2007 05:39 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:33 AM.


ebay GSB