Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

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Posted By: ScottIngold

This is a link to some thoughts on where the Wagner came from. Throw in the history about an uncut sheet containing this and a Plank....... Well just real intersting reading.

Simply amazing that this could happen and be kept quiet for so long. I also have a feeling that with all of the knowledge and history on this board that more than a few could add to this.

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=718115&CategoryID=498428&startcat=1&ThreadID=2759585

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Posted By: leon

I would prefer not to have links to other forums listed on this site, that are essentially doing the same thing this one does. There is no animosity towards those guys whatsoever and I wish them the best. As far as I know almost everyone over there posts on this board too, which is great. I will leave this one, no big deal, but would prefer not to have links posted to other sites in the future.....especially on the main forum. I have nothing against Jay and Scott for starting that one but the reason they started it is because of the banner ads on this one (and Scott and I hadn't kissed and made up yet ). I don't feel the banner ads have harmed this site at all, nor has anyone kept their mouth shut about anything (which is good too)....regards

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Posted By: Josh Adams

"Throw in the history about an uncut sheet containing this and a Plank"

Is that a fact, or just speculation?
If it is fact true, why hasn't anyone said this in relation to the sale in the past few days?

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Here is the Thread you initiated in 2005 that provides a lot of debate on this topic......

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1131565466/last-1132579205/lawsuit+against+psa+for+10.5+million+awarded+to........

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

we are going to kiss (no offense - you have the wrong plumbing to be my type is all)! However, we have buried the hatchet and I am glad.

Josh - I have been telling people about this card for a long time now - going back to the old boards. I caught a lot of Hell for it as well, since it involves Bill Mastro and some of the big dogs in the Hobby. I threw out all my files on this Wagner when I quit collecting a few years ago.

However, I do know that M. Wentz and M. O'Keeffe (a reporter who has been in touch with me over the past couple of years) have a ton of info. on this card - including some "Before" pics of the Wagner - before it was cut down a second time! If they want to share what they know, that is up to them. I do know there is going to be a book about the card coming out shortly by Mr. O'Keeffe. He has done the right thing - waiting until he has the facts together first and obtaining as much info. as possible.

Like I stated on my site - the most difficult thing in researching this card is that EVERYONE involved has lied about the card or is lying now!

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Posted By: Dave

Scott-
Do you or anyone else here have any idea how the Wagner was distributed in the short time it was? I know it was only available with Sweet Caporal, but I'm curious about where Sweet Caporal was available? From the amount of SC backs, I would venture a guess it was pretty much like "Winston" and Piedmonts were basically the "Marlboro's" of the time period..so maybe anybody in the country "could" have had a chance at the Wagner...or, could it be it was only distributed to the NEastern US? Or the MidWest?

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Posted By: leon

I also spoke to a hobby veteran (and board member) yesterday about this. To be very succinct it seems the card was cut from a sheet (most agree) and then cut again after that. The top border has never looked too straight to me...and I have seen it, through glass, but in person, many times....best regards (btw, I doubt any of this talk hurts the value)

edited to say ..>Scott- my tongue was very much in cheek when I mentioned kissing you.....agreed, you have the wrong plumbing and I am happily married...

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

The PSA 8 Wagner has a Piedmont 150 back. In fact, there are around three Wagners that have Piedmont 150 backs - all three look hand cut at one time or another!

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Posted By: Aaron

Found this is some interesting reading on this topic: http://www.thepit.com/Hub/PC_20010325.asp

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Posted By: Dave

Wow...Why did I think all the Wagner's were Sweet Caporal? read that somewhere...I wonder if the "3" Piedmont 150's all were cut from sheets later..maybe never actually distributed?

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Posted By: barrysloate

The general theory is the Piedmont Wagners were never put into circulation.

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Posted By: Josh Adams

"To be very succinct it seems the card was cut from a sheet (most agree) and then cut again after that."

How can you tell that?

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Posted By: leon

I held the other single, Piedmont backed, Wagner a few weeks ago. To me it's definitely hand cut and the owner believes so too. It's a great card with some unique provenance.....It reeks of historical significance....

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Posted By: Dave

So are the three known cards with a Piedmont back all in great condition?

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I just posted a long-winded thread about my "theory" on the Piedmont Wagners on my board - not typing it again, as I am too lazy. You can all check it out if you wish - it should be at the bottom of the thread Scott posted the link to at the top of this thread (if that makes any sense!).

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Posted By: Josh Adams

I mean, how can you tell a card is hand cut? what traits do you look for?
If the Wagner was cut from a sheet as some have suggested, why weren't any pictures taken?
From a collector's point of view, I would imagine that would be a pretty cool uncut sheet of cards.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

The other two I have seen are no better than GD and were handcut.

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Posted By: leon

I will not name names but I have spoken with at least a dozen hobby veterans about the history of the PSA8 Wagner...every single one of them says it was cut from a sheet. I am positive they are not all wrong or are all telling a story...So, it's not personally known by me, only told to me, and I believe it...hope this helps.

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Posted By: Dave

But, does it really matter if the Wagner was handcut from a sheet? It would have been cut from a sheet as well in the factory....so does it matter if it happened a year later....20 years later...or 70 years later? It isn't like there has been any "altering"...right?

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Posted By: Josh Adams

I don't think I'm explaining myself properly, I appologize.

All I want to know, for my own education, is how can a person tell a card is handcut from looking at it? what traits do you look for? How do you know it's handcut as opposed to just a poor cut by the machine, or whatever did the cutting in 1910?

As for the mystery people, everyone's entitled to privacy.

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Posted By: leon

Generally speaking a handcut card will have a waviness to one or more borders.

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Posted By: John S

The amazing thing is that it resides in a PSA 8 holder and is their advertising centerpiece.

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

I guess the history of this card does no matter to potential buyers? You would think if you were going to spend over 500K on a card you might do a LITTLE research on it. Why does a trimmed, ALTERED card cut from a sheet represent the "Holy Grail" in our hobby?????????? Gazillionaires and corporations come in with BIG bucks to buy this card for social status reasons. If they even knew or cared about what they were really buying.
I think we should talk about this once a month so word gets out and other rarer cards will be known and have the recognition they desire... I know us die hard collectors under a 1000 know about them.. But the rest of the world does not....

Checked out the other board from the link given.. I never knew about it. Seem a little hard to navigate thru it and did not have time to set up photo service... Seems like same people and thoughts over there.

JC

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Posted By: dennis

how can a card like this sneak past the slabbers?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

This story with Wagner and Plank together on a PIEDMONT 150 sheet does not "jive" from what
is known.

All Plank cards are Sweet Cap 150 or 350. There is only one known Plank with a Piedmont 150
back and it is a "colorless" proof card (depicted in the T206museum Website).

Can we have some more enlightenment on this story....there are too many inconsistencies. ?

TED Z

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Posted By: peter chao

Jim,

Brian Segal held on to the card for 7 years, I'm sure that if he didn't know it's checkered history before he bought it he surely knew by the time he sold it. Also, I understand that SCP Auctions was a minority partner in the purchase so I assume they also know of the checkered history. If they didn't they shouldn't be in business.

However, in a warped way, controversy actually helps the price of this card. It all started with the controversy of whether Honus Wagner stopped the presses because he didn't like the idea of kids learning how to smoke...others said that Wagner simply wasn't paid for the photo so he wanted it pulled.

At any rate, controversy creates a hobby buzz and that apparently translates into higher prices.

Peter

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Posted By: leon

I was just informed by good friend (definitely a veteran too) that the PSA 8 Plank was auctioned off by Mastro Auctions in 1999 and has a Sweet Cap back....There was another Plank in the Copeland sale that might have been the other high grade one. The PSA 8 Plank was definitely not associated with the PSA 8 Wagner, in that respect. Moderator status has it's privileges....

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Posted By: barrysloate

A card cut in 1910 will have a certain aging to the front, back, and edges of the paper that will be consistent.

A card recently cut will have a front and back that has been subject to the elements for a hundred years, but the exposed paper around the edges will be fresh.

Also, a card cut in 1910 would have been subject to different cutting technology than a card cut recently, so under close examinations the edges will not match a vintage card. These are all minute differences, but in theory a card cut in say 1990 should not be holdered, and should be returned to the submitter with a note "evidence of trim."

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I think there are 3 Piedmont Planks, including the one missing most of the coloring process. I also doubt that Plank was on the same sheet with Wagner, but nothing is impossible. Be well Brian

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Posted By: barrysloate

Pssst...no apostrophe in "its"...only because you asked

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Posted By: John

The only Plank I know associated with Copeland that was high grade was the below example which is also Sweet Caporal branded.

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Posted By: joe brennan

Looks like the owners of the Holy Grail could care less if it's been trimmed as long as it has PSA's blessing. -Funny with a this talk about cleaning up the hobby and here we have the most important card in the hobby shrouded with rumors of being trimmed and it still fetches over $2M.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: leon

Darn it....I guess I will never get the apostrophe thing down pat. For the record I was also just informed that there is definitely a 4th Wagner with a Piedmont back too.....I learn something new everyday.

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Posted By: John

The Plank on the left missing color is in fact one of the Piedmont branded Planks that do exist. It was part of the Halper sale of 1999. Its brother on the right was sold in a Heritage auction this year and was a Sweet Caporal backed card.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Leon- finding out about a 4th Wagner with a Piedmont back "supersedes" missing an apostrophe!

Both of Halper's Planks were color variations, one of course more extreme.

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Posted By: Dave

All the money being tossed around...I need to go do some yard sale strolling this weekend....find some little old lady with a Plank or Wagner with a red hindu back....ahem.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Dave,
A Brown Hindu would be more believable..... good luck Brian

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Posted By: Dave

yes...I shouldn't get greedy.

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Posted By: joe

T206 Plank,

Leon, you and your friend are right the PSA Plank with Sweet Caporal back was sold in Mastro auction, April, 1999, sold for $203,992. I just pulled the catalog out and it is there. There also was a T206 Sweet Caporal Wagner sold , not graded, sold for $56,026.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Dave,

Not greedy, just more likely as the Brown Hindu's were printed early in the process. I doubt we will find anymore Wagner's with strange backs, but 1 or 2 more from Piedmont scraps may be out there..... Be well Brian

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Posted By: leon

My "friend" really does know more than most anyone in the hobby, imho. I have been very, very luckey to be associated with some of the greatest guys in the hobby. I thank Scott B. and Doug Allen for that. Scott has really taken me under his wing as I was an infant in the hobby 10 years ago...and Doug has been extemely nice to me in being very gracious and included me in things where I got to meet some hobby icons. (even though he did put me on hold one night for about 10 minutes when Bill called , not that I blame him ....) best regards

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

We haven't had this thread (trimmed PSA8 Wagner T206) in a while. It's like Alice's restaraunt on Thanksgiving. Only Thanksgiving comes to the N54 VBC more often.

I kinda like this thread. I know some people are tired of reading about it but it's like if we don't talk about it then the truth will never be heard. Oh, wait a minute, the truth to some is that the PSA8 Wagner is an untouched card and that it has never been altered.

After posting this I'll go back and read the content of the thread. I figured this is going to be another fun PSA8 T206 Wagner thread... am I going to be disappointed?

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Posted By: Dave

If we are going to get any more stories started...I'd like to get one going.

T206 Peter Cassidy...extremely rare...

whew..now I can just sit back and wait to sell my VG 3.

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Posted By: John

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVxN5iQ_Ri0&mode=related&search=

To think I could have had one for $99, darn!!

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Posted By: Kevin

"All I want to know, for my own education, is how can a person tell a card is handcut from looking at it? what traits do you look for? How do you know it's handcut as opposed to just a poor cut by the machine, or whatever did the cutting in 1910?"

A quote:

"If the edge or corner of a card has been trimmed without other enhancements, regardless of the level of sophistication, it will always display the look of a trimmed card in one way or another. In essence, a trimmed card will look trimmed. Knowing specifics about edges are the key."

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Posted By: t206museuem admin

REA sold a Plank with Piedmont back in their June 1997 auction. Interesting enough, it was trimmed.

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Posted By: Aaron

Was piedmont Plank card graded as trimmed?

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Peter, Here is scenario that might have happend (IMO). Let's say Brian Segal won the card and then realized what the history was on it. Both PSA and the auction company would not want a sale of the "Holy Grail" to be tainted. SO maybe the card went on "Tour" with PSA over the years. Maybe PSA bought it back or guaranteed Brian to get all his money back when he sold it after a certain time frame. This way everyone is happy and everyone will do their best to keep the hype going on the altered trimmed PSA 8 Wagner card (IMO). I have seen the card in person. I'm sure if it was cracked out, and an expert looked at the sides of the card, it would be clear that it was cut down to size within the last 40 years.

I had an expert (no names) once tell me if you got a card from me and you could not tell anything was wrong with it, would you be happy? I guess my answer would be yes.

But if later someone told me I was wrong in my judgement of the card, I would feel 3 times as bad.

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Posted By: John

Well I didn’t want to blow the lid off this thing yet but I have been doing extensive research on the card in question. What I have found may surprise you; I can let you in on a few of my findings, which are all available in my new book. Please send $24.95 for the full story.



The history of the card goes back quite a bit and has been the focus of a cover up much larger than you can imagine. My first findings were that baseball and its founder as we know it have all been a cover up. Wagner the true founder of the game pre dates our known first origins of the game by thousands of years. Throughout time they have tossed names like Wright, Doubleday etc. to keep us off track.

Take for example the painting below before and after cleaning the painting, notice the last figure at the end of the table hmm…


Before


After

The keepers of this baseball secret and the card, which holds the key, are long; the very list raises more questions than it answers. All I know is that a very powerful group of people have been charged with keeping the secrets of the game and this very card shrouded in secrecy for a very long time. They formed the Priory of Secret Ambiguous or (PSA).

Its members have included such historical individuals the likes of Thomas Edison, George Washington, Gerald Ford, Da Vinci, Louis Pasture, Napoleon, Chuck Woolery & Alf to name a few.

Another example of my findings is from Da Vinci himself take for example one of the worlds most priceless masterpieces a simple painting on its own, yet when reversed clearly another face emerges.




Also the T206 of Wagner himself when examined closely under a black light on a recent break in at the owners house I discovered this!




How could PSA miss such a thing I wondered to myself! While in the owners home I found multiple Masonic symbols, of course Freemasons they cut stone so paper should be a breeze!

Consider this WAGNERR misspelled and TEMPLAR & MASONIC all have seven (7) letters. The number (7) Mickey Mantle’s number also a baseball player, and when describing Mantle’s last name in the possessive tense also equals (7) letters! I don’t know about you but that gave me a chill…..

These photos were given to me by an anonymous source, we met in a dark ally. The only thing I know of this mystery source is that he offered me a small stack of $100 dollar bills for my collection and yelled at me when I turned him down. The stationary had the initials AR??



Notice the founder of the group Opus Dei nothing hit at me at first, then upon closer inspection I recognized 2 faces in the crowd. Coincidence I think not…



So I beg of you gentleman don’t dig to deep, you may not like what you uncover, I feel I’ve said to much and I fear for my safety and must end this discussion.

Take care and be safe…

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Posted By: barrysloate

The "Hona" Lisa is a riot!