T207 Back Multipliers

[Leon]

Originally Posted by sb1

In short, no one really cares, the player on the front either comes with one of the tough back or he doesn't(Anonymous being the only outlier), thus you have to price according to who is on the front. I can recall when Rath and Rasmussen were tough, and Speaker and Saier, and Donln and Downey and so forth, but alas the set collectors are nowhere to be found anymore, so no great price push for them. The Cycle seems to be the only one with a premium of the tougher ones, due to the bright red back.

And of course Red Cross backs carry the highest premium but there are only around 15-20 known.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

Finding a consistent multiplier for the backs in something like T207 is not easy because it is one of the rarer tobacco sets in comparison with things like T205 and T206.

Also keep in mind that not every subject is on every back. For example, some players have Recruit or Napoleon backs. Other players have Broadleaf and Cycle backs. But those groups don't intermingle. For example, a player with a Recruit back will not also have a Cycle back. There are also the Anonymous and Red Cross backs as well. I believe Anonymous cards can be on players in either of the two groups while Red Cross is limited to those with Broadleaf/Cycle backs.

In terms of rarity, Recruit is the easiest while Red Cross is the toughest. Others are somewhere in the middle. Other than Red Cross, Napoleons are maybe the ones I see the least of.

The player I collect (Grover Hartley) is in the Broadleaf/Cycle/Anonymous section. I learned this at National, and appreciate you confirming. Is the Red Cross a guaranteed back for that the Broadleaf/Cycle/Anonymous, or is it more if the subject has a Red Cross, they would also only have those 3?

Originally Posted by sb1

In short, no one really cares, the player on the front either comes with one of the tough back or he doesn't(Anonymous being the only outlier), thus you have to price according to who is on the front. I can recall when Rath and Rasmussen were tough, and Speaker and Saier, and Donln and Downey and so forth, but alas the set collectors are nowhere to be found anymore, so no great price push for them. The Cycle seems to be the only one with a premium of the tougher ones, due to the bright red back.

Grover Hartley is the player I collect. 15th toughest card I believe in the set? Doesn't bode well for me with trying to place valuations on his cards.

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

Totally agree with this. I’ve bought t207’s quite a bit over the last five years or so and really there is no back premium except for cycles. In terms of rarity I concur that napoleons are much more difficult than non t207 collectors believe. Most peg it as the second easiest back after recruits but I think this is just because the set is uniquely broken into recruit/nap players and bl/cycle/anon players with the recruit/nap players being much much more common then the latter. The proportion of recruit to nap is insane though... I would guess even low triple digits. Some would scoff at this but I truly think it’s the case even factoring a large find or two (including hoarding). I think rarity goes recruit/bl/anon3/cycle/anon25/nap/red cross. Would love to hear any diehard t207 collectors, if they even exist anymore, thoughts on the subject.

Interesting. Are the Anonymous factories also specific to each set? The Hartley anonymous I've seen is a Factory 3 (also, BL & Cycle).

[ronniehatesjazz]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

The player I collect (Grover Hartley) is in the Broadleaf/Cycle/Anonymous section. I learned this at National, and appreciate you confirming. Is the Red Cross a guaranteed back for that the Broadleaf/Cycle/Anonymous, or is it more if the subject has a Red Cross, they would also only have those 3?



Grover Hartley is the player I collect. 15th toughest card I believe in the set? Doesn't bode well for me with trying to place valuations on his cards.



Interesting. Are the Anonymous factories also specific to each set? The Hartley anonymous I've seen is a Factory 3 (also, BL & Cycle).

The anonymous backs seem to be scattered through both groups, at least the factory 3's. I have several from both (Leach from recruit/nap and Almeida from bl/cycle). For the 25's, I only have one and it's from the bl/cycle group (Herzog).

[Cozumeleno]

The player I collect (Grover Hartley) is in the Broadleaf/Cycle/Anonymous section. I learned this at National, and appreciate you confirming. Is the Red Cross a guaranteed back for that the Broadleaf/Cycle/Anonymous, or is it more if the subject has a Red Cross, they would also only have those 3?

Your latter point is the correct one. To date, there are only around 15 or so of the Red Cross cards that have been confirmed. I believe all of the known ones found are Broadleaf/Cycle guys. But because so few Red Cross cards are known, it can't really be considered a guaranteed back for those players.

[barrysloate]

Why are there no T207 set collectors anymore? Of the T205/06/07 trio it's clearly the least popular, but it's still a heck of an interesting set. I'm surprised to hear that.

[sb1]

Barry,

There are very few set collectors of most T & E sets in this era, T206 is obviously the most widely collected in some form of set format. In nearly all of the others, the Cobb, Wagner, Johnson and Mathewson are about the only cards that the collectors of today seem to want. T207 having only the Johnson of the above has never been that popular, and now it is even less so. I bet a head count of the board would show less than 5 people pursuing the set, perhaps as few as 3.

[matthew]

Originally Posted by frohme

Glad to see a T207 post ...

YES!

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Why are there no T207 set collectors anymore? Of the T205/06/07 trio it's clearly the least popular, but it's still a heck of an interesting set. I'm surprised to hear that.

Originally Posted by sb1

Barry,

There are very few set collectors of most T & E sets in this era, T206 is obviously the most widely collected in some form of set format. In nearly all of the others, the Cobb, Wagner, Johnson and Mathewson are about the only cards that the collectors of today seem to want. T207 having only the Johnson of the above has never been that popular, and now it is even less so. I bet a head count of the board would show less than 5 people pursuing the set, perhaps as few as 3.

Add me to the list of crazy people trying to complete this set. I love the obscure players

[ronniehatesjazz]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Why are there no T207 set collectors anymore? Of the T205/06/07 trio it's clearly the least popular, but it's still a heck of an interesting set. I'm surprised to hear that.

I agree Barry; I like the set a lot. I think the set has limited appeal to most collectors. This is a set that IMO, is strictly for people who love collecting cards because they love collecting in general and not for people who love collecting because they love sports. There's just not enough star power and the look turns a lot of people off them as well (though I love them). It's also hard to get jazzed up spending thousands of dollars for players like lowdermilk and irvin lewis. Still I'm a little surprised there isn't more interest in the set.

[barrysloate]

Scott and Tyler- I can only think the reason there are so few set collectors is that the price has become prohibitive. Tobacco sets, and even some of the candy sets, are the backbone of the pre-war era, and they were always widely collected. When I see what some of the key T-206 HOFers sell for, I realize most collectors are priced out.

And the charm of the T-207 set is exactly the obscure mix of players. In place of Cobb and Mathewson you get Lew Lowdermilk and Chet Hoff, but that is what always drew collectors to it. The hobby is changing.

[Luke]

I agree. I really like the T207 set, but there are some factors that make it tough for people to collect it. If I had unlimited funds, I'd be working on the set. As it is, I can't really afford to go after the BL class cards, so I am slowly working on Napoleon and Anon Recruit Class poses.

Some of the artwork is breath-taking, and some is just objectively ugly. The Johnson is one of the worst, and looks nothing like him. If the artist that did the Leach or Hooper had also done Johnson, the interest in that card would be ten-fold what it is now.

In that same vein, the set doesn't feel that cohesive to me. It's hard to look at Konetchy and Sullivan and feel like they really belong together. Konetchy is incredibly ugly and the Sullivan is one of the best looking T cards ever produced imho.

[Cozumeleno]

I'm working on it ... and with 19 cards to go, getting close. I'll say this, though. It wasn't my first choice. Or my second. Or even my third, really. I mostly started T207 not out of any great love for the set as much as just to work on something new.

All of that said, probably about 50 cards in, I really started enjoying the cards and now, I absolutely love them. I honestly wish more people would give them a chance because, like me, I think it would grow on them. But between the look that scares people off and, as Luke said, the rarity on so many, it's very hard to do a set. Even the common Recruit guys aren't all that plentiful. PSA pop reports show them to be almost five times as rare as T205 ... which is already significantly rarer than T206. Some of it, I think, is there just aren't a ton of them around. I went to a relatively large show earlier this year and saw, I don't know, a dozen total between maybe 2-3 dealers?

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Why are there no T207 set collectors anymore? Of the T205/06/07 trio it's clearly the least popular, but it's still a heck of an interesting set. I'm surprised to hear that.

[KMayUSA6060]

Shameless plug...

Any Hartleys for sale, let me know.