Mr. Verkman – Keep your Word - Letters From Bill Mastro, Joe Orlando, & Marshall Fogel

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Posted By: jay

Board members. You have got to know this. PSA, Mastro, Evans, SGC, GAI, they all need each other. Each Auction house that you have mentioned use their grading services. They all need & i'm sure they all work together on many things for REVENUE reasons (that's for a later date). Of course they are going to agree with each other since they are all feeding on one another.
PSA, GAI, MASTRO catalogues, Leland's have all made mistakes in grading, descriptions, items. Do the research you will see (like Mr. Verkman mentioned) Why is it that sometimes you see items withdrawn from an auction?
You have to take this out of the hands of these people from this hobby. They are all together and will agree together like a large conglomerate family. A private third party outside the sports memorabilia business will give you a better one on one definitive answer.

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Posted By: leon

You must change your login from the reference you make about CSA..If I could edit it I would.......say what you want to....but be professional please.....

edited to say...I saw the reference to the old url....it's not that way anymore and my guess is that it had nothing to do with Steve Verkman...there was no reference to that that I found....I will chalk that up to an internet issue....it had nothing to do with Steve's company....let's keep this factual if we can....

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Posted By: Brian

Then why is the guarantee based on such a flawed incestuous system?

Its sad that all the grading companies and auction houses have conspired against this poor card.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

I think this is the thread to which Herman was referring.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Here's the part you either don't get or choose to ignore. There is a guarantee that if a reputable grading company finds an item to be unauthentic, a return will be accepted. Period.
Doesn't matter if the reputable grading company is right or wrong. No one forced the seller to make this or any guarantee. He elected to do so. If he's got a beef, it's with the grading company behind whom he was willing to stand. Don't make promises you are unwilling to keep.

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Posted By: leon

I just did do that search and found that thread before you posted it...but really luckeycards.com could get just as tangled and I can assure everyone my site only has to do with card related stuff....and always has.....

Todd- I have agreed with that statement all along...

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Posted By: jay

Mr. Todd, Let's do it this way. "A reputable grading Co." Nowhere does it states "if PSA, SGC, GAI, Mastro,Leland's Fogel, etc....find an item to be unauthentic" it just states a "reputable grading Co." Why does it have to be them. Why can't it be a reputable third party outside the sports memorabilia business? You see what i'm saying. Who determines what a "reputable grading Co." stands for if they ALL MADE MISTAKES". All mistake are documented by those Co.'s above on the web.
When you are talking about this amount of money, you can not rely on 4 individuals that use or FEED each other in the sports business for a final answer. You have to go the a neutral mediator.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jay,

That's a good idea but what would a neutral mediator know about baseball cards.

Peter

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Posted By: leon

You are referencing CSA in your login....you can't do that. Please change it or I will not allow you to post...it's that easy...and let's stick to the topic......so do it now and all is good...thanks

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Posted By: jay

Mr Verkman, This is my last post regarding this subject. Of course you have the option to do what you think is good for you. I would stay away from the other auctioneers & grading services in the sports business that are all working together, FEEDING each other, and using each other, for an answer. I would take this outside the sports business if you can. The grading services in the past have destroyed the coin business. It's just a matter of time before it will destroy the baseball card business. They are all one family and they only care about how much Millions of dollars they will make this year. Good luck until next time.

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Posted By: leon

My sole recourse is being able to edit a post, delete a post, or ban an IP. That's it. I can not change anyone's login nor do I have any other info. YOU created the login. Don't tell me to fix it. Had you not created it we wouldn't be having this discussion. I suggest you re-create a login that is more appropriate. Your last post is about to be deleted....and if you post with that login again you won't ever post again. This really isn't personal...and I hate censoring more than anyone...It's one of my biggest faults and I admit it. Now fix it.

ps...Herman- I want to work this out....if you have a minute call me....972-774-7032.....thanks man

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Posted By: barrysloate

Everyone has spoken their mind, and this thread is starting to fall apart. It's time to lock it.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

I enjoyed reading this tremendously. I learned a lot!


martyOgelvie
nyyankeecards.com

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Just a quick take down. This place is no blog and not a space to merely leave some prose to be counted as fiction or not. It's a forum for incredibly serious hobbyists possessing various and varying knowledge. People yack but always in the context of mostly being serious (or at least attempt to be serious) contributors to discussions relevant and revealing to collecting vintage cards. Livelihoods can be at stake, families are supported by those livelihoods, and thus the rules of engagement Leon amiably enforces. Be a gent and you'll get to have a full say on this forum, get crotchety and dismiss the style of the place and you won't be long for here.

Kindest regards
Daniel

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Posted By: Herman Taube

Now that is ironed out....Lets get back to the more important issue of the week here. Steve Verkman and CSA. I invite anyone else within eye shot of this post to recount any and all problems they have had with this auction house, for the protection of the general collecting public that read this blog. I myself have had problems with this business but for fear of repercussion, I will not mention details.

Who else has had a bad deal with CSA?

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Seller chose "reputable grading company" as his language, not "reputable somethingorother outside the hobby". He knew what this meant and again, had the option to choose other language or provide no guarantee at all. If his argument is that PSA, SCG or whoever is not reputable, then he needs to tell us what grading company is reputable, but he won't make that argument because it's bogus.
If you're trying to argue that no grading company is reputable, forget it--no Court in the land would buy that.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Mr Verkman keeps stating that the only reason PSA wont authenticate it is because they've never seen one. PSA has graded previously unseen items before. Infact according to the above letter written by Joe Orlando he stated that he believes it to be a counterfeit.
The letter doesn't say "it looks good, however we can't grade it because we've never seen one." Which is what Mr. Verkman wants you to believe IT DOES say "More importantly, this card does not possess the characteristics normally found on trading cards of the era or issued by the manufacturer. The print, registration and paper quality are not consistent with any period Goudey card or any other card from that time period. In fact, even the wear found on the card appears to be contrived to give the card the appearance that it is of certain vintage."
Seems PSA laid out why they wouldn't authenticate it pretty clearly to me...

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Posted By: Herman Taube

Have I said anything that is not factual? I mentioned the porn site that was cleansweepauctions.com only because I read it HERE IN THIS FORUM. I am trying to stick to the topic of the bad item in CSA and the situation speculation everyone is proclaiming. All I have is another different opinion from everyone else.
I think that auction houses like this one are a plague upon the industry that is only a level or two above perceived slimy coin dealers. I wish cards had a better reputation than it does and I will fight for it until the day I die. Companies like Memory Lane and WIWAG and CSA, and others are perpetuating the present stereotype of the card dealer and it must stop. Don't you want a better industry for everyone? I want to be able to buy a deal with a company check instead of cash because the customer doesn't trust a card dealer.
This crap with Verkman is only another banner of customer inconvenience and blatant possible ripoff by another card dealer. The writing is on the wall with this subject. How much more public and expert opinion does there need to be interjected? I am appalled at how the situation has progressed to this level. And you should be too.

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Posted By: Steve

Who are you Mr Taube? I know you are not John Taube because he is a classy guy. Why do I suspect that you are someone else who is playing a game?

Please stick to the topic of this card and we would all love to know who you are. You are obviously just a lowlife flamer who is only trying to get their kicks by slamming someone.

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Posted By: Jay

Herman--"I have had problems with this business but for fear of repercussion I won't mention the details". For fear of repercussion? In my opinion, short of running over Steve's dog(assuming he has one), you have already taken some pretty big shots at him. My guess is that you have already been removed from his Christmas card list.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

At this stage, I analyze the case as follows.
1. Mr. Verkman guaranteed he would take back the item if ANY REPUTABLE GRADING COMPANY determined it was not authentic. This guaranty was posted on the website at the time of the auction and therefore is part of the terms and conditions of the sale.
1a. Mr. Verkman apparently was in error when he claimed earlier that this guaranty was not in effect for the auction in question.
2. A reputable grading company has determined the item is not authentic.
3. The buyer has invoked the guaranty seeking to return the item.

In my view, all the rest of it, on both sides, is irrelevant at this point including Mr. Mastro's opinion, Mr. Fogel's opinion, whether or not the buyer's recounting of the negotiations is incomplete or misleading, whether testing can or cannot determine the authenticity of the item, and indeed whether the item is or is not authentic.

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Posted By: Herman Taube

I don't want to mention the problem deal I had with CSA because Leon may choose to censor it due to bashing rules. I haven't getton used to them yet and how they are invoked. Needless to say, I was once a bidder in CSA auctions until I got tired of being burned on his suspect inventory and subjected to his bad shipping practices. But maybe I am the only one, who knows? I choose not to speculate up here but reference previous posts and general knowledge that is in the hobby. This is why I invite anyone who has had problems with CSA to post here to inform and protect the general public from a possible marginal auction house.
Steve, now that you see you have gone from the pan to the fire, its time to be a stand up guy and refund the $$. 18k cant be a make or break figure for you given all the business you do.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Herman- you're asking others to tell their horror stories but when asked to discuss yours, you refuse because of possible repercussions. Why should others do it if you won't?

This thread is degenerating into chaos.

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Posted By: leon

I haven't censored one friggin' thing you have said nor have I asked you to say, or not say, anything, since you changed your login. How would you like me to to change my login to disparage you? You are about to piss me off....kind regards

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Posted By: David Smith

I disagree with you. Why would all the other auction companies conspire against Mr. Verkman over an $18,000 card?

I don't believe $18,000 is going to break CSA and if it is, then they have more trouble than just this card. Now if we were talking about the high grade PSA Wagner and $2.3 million, then I can see that the others might want to conspire because THAT would put a serious financial dent in CSA AND be highly public.

Also, if this card were REAL wouldn't you think the other auction companies would want it to be real? I mean with all the trouble this has caused for the buyer and the acrimony between the buyer and CSA, I don't think the buyer would EVER use CSA to sell the card if and when he decides to do so. So, the buyer would use another auction company.

Leon has already stated that if this card is REAL he would pay MORE for it than what the buyer paid. Now, add that to the fact that if this card were REAL then it would be a unique example of the biggest star player of the time and from the most prominent gum company which produced the most collected series of cards from the time. All this adds to the value of the card.

Right now, if the card were to be auctioned and Leon won it for $19,000, the auction company would make $2,850 if they charged a 15% buyers premium. However, I believe with all of the publicity generated on this board combined with the facts I stated in the previous paragraph that the card would sell for much more. This higher sales price would mean a higher dollar amount for any of the other auction houses as far as commissions go.

So, for the other auction houses to say this card is fake is, in effect, taking money from their own companies.

David

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Posted By: JK

Jay -

Who the hell are you? I know you dont post here much, but can you seriously argue that psa, sgc, etc are not reputable grading companies? That is the seller's guarantee. His guarantee does not require that someone outside the hobby (presumably with no experience authenticating cards) examine the card and deem it to be fake.

As for your conspiracy theory about all these entities feeding off each other and working with each other, that is just plain ridiculous. First, while auction companies need grading companies to grade consignments, Im sure that psa, sgc, gai get more fees from individual submissions than from auction houses. Second, what is mastro's incentive to deem the card a fake just b/c PSA says its fake? That hurts mastro in that they lose a potential consignment. If making money is all its about for these companies than mastro would have authenticated the item and sold it in their next auction graded or not.

This will go down in the annuls of conspiracy theories: the Grassy Knoll, Area 54, Elvis lives, etc.