Let's discuss conspiracies and a billion dollar fraud

[PiratesWS1979]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I hope the criminal at least left you positive feedback.

It was sent to Probstein so he possibly keeps records.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

One quick trim to Yaz, and a $7,800 profit.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...315750&page=25

Seriously... Is PSA really not in on this scam somehow? The revelations and new altered card examples are gaining steam instead of subsiding. No legitimate TPG can really be this bad. It has to be something else.

Since the blind majority are submitting in greater numbers than ever (and since PSA won't even acknowledge there's an issue), it appears our only hope is with the FBI. I hope they dig very deep on this, or an end will never be in sight. People will be submitting doctored cards in greater numbers than ever.

My guess is that PSA grades cards so fast that they cannot do a proper examination. They may well have the capabilities to identify the alterations, and many alterations are likely identifiable by conventional means, but PSA is about volume and speed.

Obligatory Seinfeld or Simpsons video clip: Homer and Barney's tour of the Duff Beer beer is made, focus on the assembly line quality control starting at 1:45

[Johnny630]

Move Along This is A Non Issue Guys

As far as the other question that you had in regards to this investigation of the auction here in our industry, I can answer it very short and sweet. We don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with.

Joseph J. Orlando, Collectors Universe, Inc. - CEO, President & Director [11]

and this

And we think that in the overall scheme of our business that some of this has been blown way out of proportion. But we are very confident in the services that we provide and very confident in the grading staff that we have, and so is the public

and this

Joseph J. Wallace, Collectors Universe, Inc. - CFO & SVP [43]

So I think this whole trimming issue that we spent a lot of time talking about today is really something that we don't consider material to our business. And we'd probably just like to leave it at that in terms of any additional questions on the subject.

Another Big Up Yours to Collectors :-( very sad state of affairs......the fun is being sucked out of this hobby

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

I choose to not do business with PSA, and I am enjoying the hobby just fine.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by drcy

My guess is that PSA grades cards so fast that they cannot do a proper examination. They may well have the capabilities to identify the alterations, and many alterations are likely identifiable by conventional means, but PSA is about volume and speed.

Obligatory Seinfeld or Simpsons video clip: Homer and Barney's tour of the Duff Beer beer is made, focus on the assembly line quality control starting at 1:45

I don't even need to see the video David. Hitler's head is in one of the bottles.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

I choose to not do business with PSA, and I am enjoying the hobby just fine.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I cannot agree with this more. I had thought about taking part of the current group submission to PSA but in the end I felt I would be hypocritical for me to do such a thing as I just don't like PSA's business practices. THey are going to continue take our money without addressing any of our concerns so I will just choose to take my business elsewhere.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by steve B

If only it worked like that.

How many cards are harder to find that the T206 Wagner? Hundreds? How many are worth as much?

The most valuable card in the 52 Topps High number set is a double print.

The demand matters more than the supply, in most cases far more.
Even for cards that are truly rare in high grades, that shouldn't necessarily translate into higher prices for lower grades, which are simply commons.
But that's not reality.

Agree. That's why I said, you have to consider a specific asset (like a Wagner, or 1952 Mantle, or whatever. Same asset, grade, and TPG)

Originally Posted by Mark17

Doesn't it make sense that the price of an asset, all things being equal (same asset, same grade, same TPG) will be lower if 10 are in circulation, rather than 5?

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by whitehse

I cannot agree with this more. I had thought about taking part of the current group submission to PSA but in the end I felt I would be hypocritical for me to do such a thing as I just don't like PSA's business practices. THey are going to continue take our money without addressing any of our concerns so I will just choose to take my business elsewhere.

Thanks. And for that matter, I am less than enamored with any TPGer and not just because of recent events. Yes, I do have a few graded cards...but fewer than I previously did. I have collected for at least 30 years (wow that sounds strange to say), and I don't need their "help." I understand some really like cards in TPG holders. To each their own. Everyone is different. Bottom line is that this hobby is a source of fun and escape for me, always has been and always will be. Entities like PSA or whomever else won't ruin it for me.

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[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Back to the subject at hand, y'all are worrying needlessly.

According to Joe,

As far as the other question that you had in regards to this investigation of the auction here in our industry, I can answer it very short and sweet. We don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with.

and

And we think that in the overall scheme of our business that some of this has been blown way out of proportion. But we are very confident in the services that we provide and very confident in the grading staff that we have, and so is the public

Say it ain't so Joe...after further review, the call on the field stands. It is easily a billion dollar fraud. Keep feeding the monster.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Assuming by now OP has backed down from the ledge of his original request that we all simply ditch the hobby or refrain from purchasing en masse until card values become dramatically deflated, or all of the bad guys go to jail. One, you know personal freedoms and all, and two - completely unrealistic even for a few seconds.

I’m probably not going to say anything new here, but I’m a collector and not an investor, and while it would not hurt my feelings for a minute to suddenly see PSA have to shutter their doors, at the end of the day I’m still going to be a baseball fan and a hobbyist. I have nowhere near 100k tied up in cards, and if I find myself in that situation one day I’m probably also going to be in divorce court.

Question - what did adult hobbyists find to talk about back in the 1980’s and 90’s when there were no TPG’s and no internet message boards? (I was only a kid hobbyist then, whose mother occasionally indulged his obsession with cards from the 1950’s and 60’s.) And with such substantial less risk of being caught at doing something so outrageous as altering old baseball cards to make them look better - how do we not know or even assume that the level of alteration going on back then was WAY more prevalent than what we are seeing with PWCC today? This is after all ostensibly why PSA was even founded. The point is it did not stop the memorabilia explosion that we thought was happening back then, which is even more ridiculously explosive and overall healthy as evidenced by the dollars which continue to flow today. I would agree with some of the other posts here which point out that yes the economy and other situations will go up and down, but I would have to imagine another Hooverville-esqe situation on the world stage before the day comes that I’m actually able to afford a decent ‘52 #311 for less than the value of my car.


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Didn't really change my position. I think everyone should step back and take a deep breathe for about 3 years. It's getting to be re-god damned ridiculous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuBHak_S7bE

that people would continue to feed an KNOWN fraud. It's really just a symptom of the human condition that people are so very stupid and trusting.

Where is Bernie Madoff? I'd like to invest in his fine high paying fund.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I don't even need to see the video David. Hitler's head is in one of the bottles.

And Duff spelled backwards is FUDD

[Johnny630]

Chuck It’s A Shame Very Sad!!

Most do not care about the Cards At All!!!!

It’s all about making money they could care less about any of these Frauds.

Until PSA slabs start bring far less money the crap won’t stop I think it’s only going to get worse.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Doesn't it make sense that the price of an asset, all things being equal (same asset, same grade, same TPG) will be lower if 10 are in circulation, rather than 5?

I think that we're talking about different things.

The above does make sense, except for the demand side.
If there are 5 or 10 in circulation doesn't matter much if there are 100 people that really want one and can afford it. The difference between 5 and 10 may make a few people decide it's too common, but unless that becomes a big difference, the demand still far exceeds supply.

What I'm talking about is where that demand goes as the price increases.
If 100 people can afford a card at a particular grade, and there are only 5 of them, at some point, the people who can afford it a bit less will either stop wanting the card, or will accept that they can only afford the card in a lower grade. When the difference is big enough, someone who was borderline able to afford it in one grade becomes a major force driving price at a lower grade.
There are cards that I could afford when I started back in the late 70's, and back then I could have afforded a fairly nice one.
Enter grading and registries and the hobby expanding (Not necessarily all bad things) And now I would have a difficult time justifying even buying one grade 1 or A. (Most major rookie cards from the 50's, and most prewar HOFers from any set. )
The high prices for the top examples drive up the price of all the others. And in some cases, the price of different cards from the same set. (T206, 52 Topps... Both are fairly common, but sell for more than cards from tougher sets from the same era. )

[Fuddjcal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4louSPP3iE

This video asks the question "PSA: Incompetent or Complicit?"

you know what I think. How about you?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4louSPP3iE

This video asks the question "PSA: Incompetent or Complicit?"

you know what I think. How about you?

Thanks for posting that Chuck. A lot of revealing information on that video.

There may be a third option other than "Incompetent or Complicit" and that may be "Indifference". I know PSA has been aware of this problem for quite a long time (at least 10 years based on my personal experience and more likely 12 years based on a reliable source who also confronted PSA) and best to my knowledge, nothing sufficient was done to fix the problem. It's become very obvious to me they have a business model where they put minimal effort into their service, put some effort into advertising and damage control, and consequently generate a lot of money and that's the bottom line. Everyone is happy: CU, CU stockholders, the card doctors and the hopelessly addicted competitive registry junkies. The one exception is the small minority of principled collectors that know about the problem and consequently sell their PSA cards and move on into some other hobby.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Thanks for posting that Chuck. A lot of revealing information on that video.

There may be a third option other than "Incompetent or Complicit" and that may be "Indifference". I know PSA has been aware of this problem for quite a long time (at least 10 years based on my personal experience and more likely 12 years based on a reliable source who also confronted PSA) and best to my knowledge, nothing sufficient was done to fix the problem. It's become very obvious to me they have a business model where they put minimal effort into their service, put some effort into advertising and damage control, and consequently generate a lot of money and that's the bottom line. Everyone is happy: CU, CU stockholders, the card doctors and the hopelessly addicted competitive registry junkies. The one exception is the small minority of principled collectors that know about the problem and consequently sell their PSA cards and move on into some other hobby.

All very true...

But if we only had a way to reach and inform the “Registry Whales” of their tainted cards, it could start to turn the tide. I know that some of them wouldn’t care to know (and only see the number on the flip). But I have to believe the majority WOULD care, if they only knew. And subsequent legal action would surely ensue.

Perhaps if we ever figure out how to spread the word beyond these forums, we can finally begin to make a dent in the ever-increasing levels of corruption. Nothing will change at PSA unless their revenue stream begins to weaken.

But as long as they’re raking in the cash, there is no motivation for them to change a thing. Shareholders before customers!

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

All very true...

But if we only had a way to reach and inform the “Registry Whales” of their tainted cards, it could start to turn the tide. I know that some of them wouldn’t care to know (and only see the number on the flip). But I have to believe the majority WOULD care, if they only knew. And subsequent legal action would surely ensue.

Perhaps if we ever figure out how to spread the word beyond these forums, we can finally begin to make a dent in the ever-increasing levels of corruption. Nothing will change at PSA unless their revenue stream begins to weaken.

But as long as they’re raking in the cash, there is no motivation for them to change a thing. Shareholders before customers!

100% agree Mark ! Your last statement was bottom line to the point truth!

Would like to see this Scandal in the IBD or American Greed

[bmcnutt]

The card price in this link is a price example of my distaste for card grading companies. The Beckett Book Value of this card is $6.00. But Dean's Cards is selling it as if it is a PSA 8, and the card is not even graded.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-...ss!38863!US!-1

[al032184]

Dean's Cards has ALWAYS sold cards significantly marked up from any book value, graded or not. He has been selling cards for a couple decades. I've never heard anything shady coming from his business, except that he's stubborn with his prices, which he has the right to be, for better or worse. Hell, if he hasn't been involved in any altering scandals, his mark ups might be worth knowing he doesn't sell altered cards.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by steve B

Grades that go to 11... I like it!

The slab could be all black, nothing blacker...

Maybe a pastel black...