Let's discuss conspiracies and a billion dollar fraud

[Leon]

+1 It is their gravy train. Unfortunately it seems they often really suck at their job.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is a better chance of the Earth colliding with Mars than the TPGs ditching numerical grades.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Mark17

So as not to confuse with other grading card services and their grading scales, how about forget the numbers and use the words:

Poor, Fair, Good, Very Good, Excellent, Mint

Otherwise, novices would get confused thinking a mint card (if called a 5) was in lesser condition than a PSA 6.

Or, go the Spinal Tap direction, and use a scale from 1-11. The 11s could be 10s that also are worthy of a little sticker....

It would make a great marketing slogan for the new grading service: "Yeah, but our grades go to 11."

Grades that go to 11... I like it!

The slab could be all black, nothing blacker...

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by steve B

Grades that go to 11... I like it!

The slab could be all black, nothing blacker...

SCD had an 11 point grading scale a few years ago.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by steve B

Oddly, I think that the most reliable slab is currently BCCG.

Do they still do that?

I wonder if a grading company with a 1-5 grading scale like we sort of had in the late 70's would succeed?

My funny story is I had a tour of the Beckett facilities in Dallas, and sitting on the floor in a hallway was a box of unused holders. I joked to the grading director that I could steal those and make my own graded cards. He laughed and said "You wouldn't want those. Those are BCCC holders." He knew.

[Exhibitman]

When TPGs started I (and many others I spoke with) thought it was stupid. Dennis Purdy even wrote his prescient "Smoke Detectors Without Batteries" column in VCBC #7 in 1996. Just like opioids, however, the TPGs manufactured demand: a few companies figured out that they could make a market. Brilliant marketing with terrible blow-back.

IMO the main driver of the corruption is the PSA registry. It begins and ends with the demand created by pitting egotistical collectors against each other for the 'best' collections. That plus the TPGs' abject failure at analyzing cards (and perhaps some outright corruption) was an open door to the crap we are dealing with today.

The only solution is to stop playing their game. Put the TPGs out of business by refusing to use their services and deleting all registry sets and eventually the 'easy' money will be taken out of the hobby. Then the slimy things will slither back into the sewer and go bother the coin collectors.

Not gonna happen unfortunately: too much invested in the status quo.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

I'm certain that the majority of the registry collectors aren't even aware of the problem, so unless law enforcement gets involved or there is a massive law suit, I believe it will just go on as business as usual and the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars worth of bad cards will just be repeatedly bought and sold and be passed on indefinitely.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

I'm certain that the majority of the registry collectors aren't even aware of the problem, so unless law enforcement gets involved or there is a massive law suit, I believe it will just go on as business as usual and the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars worth of bad cards will just be repeatedly bought and sold and be passed on indefinitely.

Yep... spot on.

Law enforcement must come down hard on the Doctors, Shady Dealers and TPGs, if any type of meaningful change is to result from this.

Probably foolish, but I remain cautiously optimistic.

[Mrc32]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

Turning $18 into $3500? Well with returns like that I'd expect a lot more crooks to give it a whirl. Wow.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

Well said Dan. The TPGs are the biggest offenders -- their fundamental job is to detect alterations; thats what they are literally paid to do. The card doctors obviously suck, but if the TPGs did their job, the incentive to doctor cards would go down significantly.

In my opinion, after the TPGs, the next largest offenders are sales outlets/auction houses, who knowingly use their platform to assist, and even participate along with, card doctors in selling altered cards while hiding behind the fact that a TPG put the card in a flip -- "thats their job, not ours".

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

I'm certain that the majority of the registry collectors aren't even aware of the problem, so unless law enforcement gets involved or there is a massive law suit, I believe it will just go on as business as usual and the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars worth of bad cards will just be repeatedly bought and sold and be passed on indefinitely.

Well said !! :-)

I see one of the major problems is Zero Repercussion or Fear of Prosecution to the Card Doctors. I’ve overheard a person at show saying once’s the cards are graded they’re graded I’m off the hook.

Will PSA or auction houses turn in these people?? Doubtful, why because they’re possibly in cahoots. Unless there is emails or text messages that can pin down specifics it’s going to be very difficult.

When the scandal hit everyone was balls to the wall to put doctors in jail now crickets.

I don’t know...what is everyone else’s thoughts about this.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Mrc32

Turning $18 into $3500? Well with returns like that I'd expect a lot more crooks to give it a whirl. Wow.

If you look at the link on the opening post and scroll down, you'll see a 1959 Topps Eddie Miksis that went from a PSA 8 to a PSA 10. Actually the final sale was $3605.00! That's utter madness for a common card in my opinion and sadly, it's virtually a worthless card. In fact, if you look at PSA's website, in their "Lingo" directory, they define "trimmed" as follows (bold added for emphasis) and by their own admission they acknowledge trimmed cards have very little value:

"A card that has been altered by cutting or shaving the edges. The most obvious reason for this is to improve the condition of corners, by removing the worn areas. Cards are also trimmed to correct centering problems. Cards that have been trimmed have very little value."

https://www.psacard.com/resources/lingo/t/

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Also, the acronym TPG should now be TPH (third party holdering) as their service only offers a means of storage.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Well said Dan. The TPGs are the biggest offenders -- their fundamental job is to detect alterations; thats what they are literally paid to do. The card doctors obviously suck, but if the TPGs did their job, the incentive to doctor cards would go down significantly.

In my opinion, after the TPGs, the next largest offenders are sales outlets/auction houses, who knowingly use their platform to assist, and even participate along with, card doctors in selling altered cards while hiding behind the fact that a TPG put the card in a flip -- "thats their job, not ours".

Sorry but the fools paying incredulous sums of money for psa 10 commons are part of the problem as well!

[drcy]

It's bigger and bigger and wider and wider: New Blowout thread

And a quote from PSA's own forum: "One thing that will be important for PSA to eventually address is whether all this trimming is being missed because insufficient time is being devoted per card, or because PSA just isn’t able to detect it."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by drcy

It's bigger and bigger and wider and wider: New Blowout thread

And a quote from PSA's own forum: "One thing that will be important for PSA to eventually address is whether all this trimming is being missed because insufficient time is being devoted per card, or because PSA just isn’t able to detect it."

Or..... or......

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Or..... or..... Orlando.

[drcy]

A number of regular posters at the PSA forum have posted there that they are not buying graded cards, at least until they see how this turns out.

It is the PSA forum and posters know they can only go far, but a good number of people have expressed great disappointment and questions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ecclesiastes 1:9

What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5489

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ecclesiastes 1:9

What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

Actually, I got some new shoes yesterday. Though one thing not new under the sun is that I'm looking sharp. Though I'd phrase it as "Goes without saying."

[Elderwood17]

Originally Posted by ALBB

If the whole hobby crashed, It would not bother me at all.
Im a lower grade/ for fun collector.
Been at it forever... have always collected for the enjoyment of it.
Yes, Ive occasionally spent over a few hundred bucks for a card, but if they all became worthless.. Id still enjoy it

I am a low grade collector as well, but still would have a bit of angst if it totally crashed. I do feel though that the premium being paid for the 9s and 10s has been a bit crazy, but if that pops it may not impact the mid or low grade cards that much.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

If you look at the link on the opening post and scroll down, you'll see a 1959 Topps Eddie Miksis that went from a PSA 8 to a PSA 10. Actually the final sale was $3605.00! That's utter madness for a common card in my opinion and sadly, it's virtually a worthless card. In fact, if you look at PSA's website, in their "Lingo" directory, they define "trimmed" as follows (bold added for emphasis) and by their own admission they acknowledge trimmed cards have very little value:

"A card that has been altered by cutting or shaving the edges. The most obvious reason for this is to improve the condition of corners, by removing the worn areas. Cards are also trimmed to correct centering problems. Cards that have been trimmed have very little value."

https://www.psacard.com/resources/lingo/t/

Look for PSA to delete the reference to trimmed cards having very little value. Nothing to see here folks.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ecclesiastes 1:9

What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5489

Peter,

Thanks for the link to the Blowout post and I can personally attest that many, if not all of those PSA-related machinations are true in relation to suppressing the alteration problems. I too exited the graded-card hobby in 2008 and when I publicly exposed examples of doctored PSA cards in 2009, Orlando banned me from the CU message boards and deleted my retired sets from the Set Registry.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Look for PSA to delete the reference to trimmed cards having very little value. Nothing to see here folks.

No doubt Todd. Aggressive damage control seems to be paramount at PSA.

[Rickyy]

I think more will come out in regards to the trimmed cards...its endless.. we probably haven't even touched the surface esp when it comes to new shiny ones... which I believe Jeff L had eluded to.

Ricky Y

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Peter,

Thanks for the link to the Blowout post and I can personally attest that many, if not all of those PSA-related machinations are true in relation to suppressing the alteration problems. I too exited the graded-card hobby in 2008 and when I publicly exposed examples of doctored PSA cards in 2009, Orlando banned me from the CU message boards and deleted my retired sets from the Set Registry.

Yeah Dan I remember. Same as he was, same as he is and will be.

[jchcollins]

Assuming by now OP has backed down from the ledge of his original request that we all simply ditch the hobby or refrain from purchasing en masse until card values become dramatically deflated, or all of the bad guys go to jail. One, you know personal freedoms and all, and two - completely unrealistic even for a few seconds.

I’m probably not going to say anything new here, but I’m a collector and not an investor, and while it would not hurt my feelings for a minute to suddenly see PSA have to shutter their doors, at the end of the day I’m still going to be a baseball fan and a hobbyist. I have nowhere near 100k tied up in cards, and if I find myself in that situation one day I’m probably also going to be in divorce court.

Question - what did adult hobbyists find to talk about back in the 1980’s and 90’s when there were no TPG’s and no internet message boards? (I was only a kid hobbyist then, whose mother occasionally indulged his obsession with cards from the 1950’s and 60’s.) And with such substantial less risk of being caught at doing something so outrageous as altering old baseball cards to make them look better - how do we not know or even assume that the level of alteration going on back then was WAY more prevalent than what we are seeing with PWCC today? This is after all ostensibly why PSA was even founded. The point is it did not stop the memorabilia explosion that we thought was happening back then, which is even more ridiculously explosive and overall healthy as evidenced by the dollars which continue to flow today. I would agree with some of the other posts here which point out that yes the economy and other situations will go up and down, but I would have to imagine another Hooverville-esqe situation on the world stage before the day comes that I’m actually able to afford a decent ‘52 #311 for less than the value of my car.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Question - what did adult hobbyists find to talk about back in the 1980’s and 90’s when there were no TPG’s and no internet message boards?

They wrote letters to hobby publications like Sports Collectors Digest, which was the combined equivalent of eBay, Net54, and Blowout when I got seriously back into the hobby in 1991. Plus local card shops and local card shows, where most of the buying and selling that's now done online took place.

Here's one of my hobby history posts that details a big controversy over the commercialization of the hobby that took place in 1968-69. A lot of these discussions have been going on for a long time.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=234476

Also, see these articles in SCD about fake autographs and the problems with PSA -- from 1996, 23 years ago. They were raising many of the same issues we're dealing with today.

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=271015

Originally Posted by jchcollins

And with such substantial less risk of being caught at doing something so outrageous as altering old baseball cards to make them look better - how do we not know or even assume that the level of alteration going on back then was WAY more prevalent than what we are seeing with PWCC today? This is after all ostensibly why PSA was even founded.

See this post about the first wave of counterfeit cards to appear in the hobby, in 1972-74. Before that there wasn't enough money in the hobby to justify anybody going to the trouble to fake stuff. But the hobby's steady growth in the 1970s (corresponding with the first baby boomers getting enough disposable income to try to recreate their childhoods) brought in a lot more money, and with it the crooks.

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262868

[GasHouseGang]

Who would have imagined Alan "Mr Mint" Rosen would have been the voice of reason back in 1996. In that SCD article he says, "I believe there is a true need for a service, to tell someone that the card is not trimmed, to tell someone it's not fake or doctored in any way or bleached. That would be a great service for the hobby. But once you put that little number on it, that creates greed. And we don't need that right now. We need to bring customers back in, not alienate them."

[drcy]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

Who would have imagined Alan "Mr Mint" Rosen would have been the voice of reason back in 1996. In that SCD article he says, "I believe there is a true need for a service, to tell someone that the card is not trimmed, to tell someone it's not fake or doctored in any way or bleached. That would be a great service for the hobby. But once you put that little number on it, that creates greed. And we don't need that right now. We need to bring customers back in, not alienate them."

Back in the day, Rosen also had an interesting definition of Mint: from the pack fresh. That meant the card be off center, have a print defect, etc-- but it had to be as fresh as if it was just pulled from the pack. As I write, I kinda like that definition.

[JohnP0621]

First let me start by saying that I have also been a long time collector and I am not happy with the current situation and fraud . I mostly collect Prewar T205-T206, Goudey etc and some 50s-60s stars Mantle , Mays , Aaron etc
95 % of my cards are graded Psa - SGC grades 3-5 . I like my cards graded and protected .I have approx 400-450 cards and My guess wound be that none of them are altered or trimmed. A lot of them I bought raw and sent in myself for grading and the rest I bought from reputable dealers at shows , EBay and right here on Net 54. I enjoy this hobby and am not going to let a few dishonest A-Holes ruin my enjoyment. I do not have high end cards or need the best example or highest graded. The OP and many others are suggesting that the whole Hobby is a criminal enterprise and I totally disagree . There are many , many more descent hobbyists and sellers then crooks. You just need to know who your dealing with.

John P

[Jim65]

I hope the scandal chases all the douchebags away. The people who smoked cigars, drank expensive wine, drank all the weird coffee because it was hip, then moved on to the next fad.

A lot of the morons who have to have the #1 rated set in the registry but couldn't tell you what team the players played for. The guys who spend $20,000 for a 1/1 of the biggest prospect, just to brag on YouTube but couldn't pick that player out of a lineup or even pronounce his name correctly.

I wouldn't miss any of those assholes.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by drcy

Back in the day, Rosen also had an interesting definition of Mint: from the pack fresh. That meant the card be off center, have a print defect, etc-- but it had to be as fresh as if it was just pulled from the pack. As I write, I kinda like that definition.

David,

I still use "pack fresh" (if they are) when describing cards, especially lots. I try to provide 'guidance' as to the centering of the cards, but I don't always get into specific OCs (80/20, 70/30, etc). I usually scan a 'sampling' of the cards as an indication. I would also note if there were gum stains on x number or y% of the cards. Again, mostly for lots. Technically, they are not "mint", but I rarely go higher than NM when trying to specify a grade anyway.

Individual cards get the 'high scan treatment' with a statement of grade without considering centering and noting any defects as needed. Most can tell how well the card is or isn't centered and judge on their own what the means to them.

I get a lot of "exactly as" or "better than" described, which may mean I leave money on the table, but oh well. My piece of mind and not having to worry about nit picking is worth the cost.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by drcy

Back in the day, Rosen also had an interesting definition of Mint: from the pack fresh. That meant the card be off center, have a print defect, etc-- but it had to be as fresh as if it was just pulled from the pack. As I write, I kinda like that definition.

I met him briefly once, and helped work a table across from him at a show (for the show promoter)

That idea of the preservation of the card being the important part is probably the only thing we ever had in common. He did know his cards though...

[JohnP0621]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I hope the scandal chases all the douchebags away. The people who smoked cigars, drank expensive wine, drank all the weird coffee because it was hip, then moved on to the next fad.

A lot of the morons who have to have the #1 rated set in the registry but couldn't tell you what team the players played for. The guys who spend $20,000 for a 1/1 of the biggest prospect, just to brag on YouTube but couldn't pick that player out of a lineup or even pronounce his name correctly.

I wouldn't miss any of those assholes.

I can't understand the name calling . Why are some of you so angry and concerned on how other people spend there money.
It doesn't affect me one way or another . More power to them. Some people just have way more disposable $$$ than others to,spend. They should be able to spend it anyway they want.
Not sure why it upsets you so much.
John P

[steve B]

Originally Posted by JohnP0621

I can't understand the name calling . Why are some of you so angry and concerned on how other people spend there money.
It doesn't affect me one way or another . More power to them. Some people just have way more disposable $$$ than others to,spend. They should be able to spend it anyway they want.
Not sure why it upsets you so much.
John P

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

Exactly Well Said +1

I believe in the not to distant future that PSA’s Slabs/Opinions will be worth far less to the market then they are currently.

I’ve said this for years, Registry and Pop Report are two of their biggest money making marketing tools. Both are inaccurate and total BS

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I hope the scandal chases all the douchebags away. The people who smoked cigars, drank expensive wine, drank all the weird coffee because it was hip, then moved on to the next fad.

A lot of the morons who have to have the #1 rated set in the registry but couldn't tell you what team the players played for. The guys who spend $20,000 for a 1/1 of the biggest prospect, just to brag on YouTube but couldn't pick that player out of a lineup or even pronounce his name correctly.

I wouldn't miss any of those assholes.

100% Facts!! I'd rather buy a 1/1 that's 100+ years old for $25. I wouldn't mind being #1 on the Registry when it comes to rarity.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

I don't follow the logic. Assets follow the basic principle of supply and demand. Now, for example, let's say there is a specific high demand card where only 5 legitimate PSA 8s exist. That isn't many, and for high-rollers who really want one, the price, naturally, will be pretty high.

But then the Asset Doctors come along, and, using lower-graded or ungraded cards, produce another 5 PSA 8s. Now there are 10 in the market, which makes them half as scarce.

Doesn't it make sense that the price of an asset, all things being equal (same asset, same grade, same TPG) will be lower if 10 are in circulation, rather than 5?

I think PSA, their numeric grading, and their registry create demand that inflates prices. But what the Doctors are doing, creating more of those higher grade cards, must have a somewhat mitigating impact, assuming the age-old concept of supply-demand is valid (and it is.)

[JohnP0621]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

OK I get it that everyone is upset with the trimmers etc. So am I .
I was just referring to the name calling. Calling someone a D-Bag , Moron , A-Hole because they collect high end and maybe some of their cards may be altered is out of line. Save those names for the card trimmers and thieves.

JP

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by JohnP0621

OK I get it that everyone is upset with the trimmers etc. So am I .
I was just referring to the name calling. Calling someone a D-Bag , Moron , A-Hole because they collect high end and maybe some of their cards may be altered is out of line. Save those names for the card trimmers and thieves.

JP

Reread my post. I have no problem with people who collect high end or spend massive amounts on cards, its the guys who do that and have no idea who the player is or what team he plays for. These guys will be on to the next cool thing as soon as someone tells them what that is.

These guys are total douchebags, pure and simple.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Reread my post. I have no problem with people who collect high end or spend massive amounts on cards, its the guys who do that and have no idea who the player is or what team he plays for. These guys will be on to the next cool thing as soon as someone tells them what that is.

These guys are total douchebags, pure and simple.

Why? And... why do you feel morally superior, to the point of judging how someone else spends their money?

Is it immoral to chase a fad, or to have less knowledge of baseball than you require?

[JohnP0621]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Why? And... why do you feel morally superior, to the point of judging how someone else spends their money?

Is it immoral to chase a fad, or to have less knowledge of baseball than you require?

I agree. You have no idea who these people/collectors are and yet you think that you can call out names . Some guys just have Much More money than others. Whats your beef ? Some people I know spend $200.00 for a bottle of wine while I spend $15.00 . It doesn't make me jealous nor do I care. Yet you think they are D-Bags Etc. I Guess Im just not getting your point as to your anger towards other people that you don't even know or how they spend THEIR MONEY.

John P

[Peter_Spaeth]

Back to the subject at hand, y'all are worrying needlessly.

According to Joe,

As far as the other question that you had in regards to this investigation of the auction here in our industry, I can answer it very short and sweet. We don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with.

and

And we think that in the overall scheme of our business that some of this has been blown way out of proportion. But we are very confident in the services that we provide and very confident in the grading staff that we have, and so is the public

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Back to the subject at hand, y'all are worrying needlessly.

According to Joe,

As far as the other question that you had in regards to this investigation of the auction here in our industry, I can answer it very short and sweet. We don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with.

and

And we think that in the overall scheme of our business that some of this has been blown way out of proportion. But we are very confident in the services that we provide and very confident in the grading staff that we have, and so is the public

Nothing in that earnings call makes me want to invest in his company.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Its been another several months....tons of different card owners out there that bought altered cards...yet zero lawsuits that i am aware of..

obviously people are satisfied with the card, the refund or the loss they are taking that its tough to put this in Category 5 scandal territory at least at this point.

[perezfan]

One quick trim to Yaz, and a $7,800 profit.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...315750&page=25

Seriously... Is PSA really not in on this scam somehow? The revelations and new altered card examples are gaining steam instead of subsiding. No legitimate TPG can really be this bad. It has to be something else.

Since the blind majority are submitting in greater numbers than ever (and since PSA won't even acknowledge there's an issue), it appears our only hope is with the FBI. I hope they dig very deep on this, or an end will never be in sight. People will be submitting doctored cards in greater numbers than ever.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I don't follow the logic. Assets follow the basic principle of supply and demand. Now, for example, let's say there is a specific high demand card where only 5 legitimate PSA 8s exist. That isn't many, and for high-rollers who really want one, the price, naturally, will be pretty high.

But then the Asset Doctors come along, and, using lower-graded or ungraded cards, produce another 5 PSA 8s. Now there are 10 in the market, which makes them half as scarce.

Doesn't it make sense that the price of an asset, all things being equal (same asset, same grade, same TPG) will be lower if 10 are in circulation, rather than 5?

I think PSA, their numeric grading, and their registry create demand that inflates prices. But what the Doctors are doing, creating more of those higher grade cards, must have a somewhat mitigating impact, assuming the age-old concept of supply-demand is valid (and it is.)

If only it worked like that.

How many cards are harder to find that the T206 Wagner? Hundreds? How many are worth as much?

The most valuable card in the 52 Topps High number set is a double print.

The demand matters more than the supply, in most cases far more.
Even for cards that are truly rare in high grades, that shouldn't necessarily translate into higher prices for lower grades, which are simply commons.
But that's not reality.

[PiratesWS1979]

Originally Posted by perezfan

One quick trim to Yaz, and a $7,800 profit.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...315750&page=25

Seriously... Is PSA really not in on this scam somehow? The revelations and new altered card examples are gaining steam instead of subsiding. No legitimate TPG can really be this bad. It has to be something else.

Since the blind majority are submitting in greater numbers than ever (and since PSA won't even acknowledge there's an issue), it appears our only hope is with the FBI. I hope they dig very deep on this, or an end will never be in sight. People will be submitting doctored cards in greater numbers than ever.

THAT WAS MY YAZ!!

40
1
26809377
EXCELLENT-MINT 6
1965 Topps 170 Hank Aaron
Card
41
1
26809378
EXCELLENT 5
1965 Topps 207 Pete Rose
Card
42
1
26809379
NEAR MINT+ 7.5
1965 Topps 385 Carl Yastrzemski
Card
43
1
26809380
VERY GOOD+ 3.5
1966 Topps 50 Mickey Mantle
Card
43
2
26809381
VERY GOOD+ 3.5
1966 Topps 50 Mickey Mantle

[Peter_Spaeth]

I hope the criminal at least left you positive feedback.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I hope the criminal at least left you positive feedback.

And a small percentage of his $7,800 profit.