Let's discuss conspiracies and a billion dollar fraud

[Fuddjcal]

Here's to your fun and games and love for the hobby. It's already over and ruined for me and countless others, but maybe a few more of you dupes will wake up and stop talking about the new pannini release, pops & registry's, hot pack,your old judges, e-98's, t206, bowman chrome et al WHO THE F CARES? STOP SUPPORTING THIS Fraudulent hobby until you can come to realize just how stupid you are for supporting a racketeering enterprise so out of control that every card is suspect, IMHO

Here is another of the uncountable criminals in the hobby and how they make a living doing it. Close associates of PWCC. shocker! IMHO, there are 100's of guys like this working with PWCC, PSA and former employees of PSA. it is rotten to the core. PERIOD.

I find it fascinating that people are not revolting. It's very amusing and laughable watching the human condition of minions and followers. How about you guys wake up and STAND for something?

[Yoda]

People are not revolting because they have too much skin in the game.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Yoda

People are not revolting because they have too much skin in the game.

Agree and also people are not revolting because everyone is making money hand over fist....check out the Facebook boards they don’t care everyone thinks it’s a investment.....they are still spending like crazy

[oldjudge]

Chuck- I don’t understand what you are suggesting. Personally, i’ve collected what I collect long before grading was around. I have few graded cards and, if PSA and SGC went away tomorrow, it would not have a significant impact on my collecting. Should I stop collecting because of the current card doctoring? The point I am making is that the hobby is an amalgam of different types of collectors. Some, like high grade registry guys, are directly impacted by the current scandal and might be advised to rethink their collecting strategy. Others, like myself and other old time collectors, don’t grade much and although we find card doctors equally repugnant, are not directly impacted by them to the same degree.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Chuck- I don’t understand what you are suggesting. Personally, i’ve collected what I collect long before grading was around. I have few graded cards and, if PSA and SGC went away tomorrow, it would not have a significant impact on my collecting. Should I stop collecting because of the current card doctoring? The point I am making is that the hobby is an amalgam of different types of collectors. Some, like high grade registry guys, are directly impacted by the current scandal and might be advised to rethink their collecting strategy. Others, like myself and other old time collectors, don’t grade much and although we find card doctors equally repugnant, are not directly impacted by them to the same degree.

No disrespect for what & how you collect, but yes, how about putting on the brakes for a while until it all shakes out?

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

No disrespect for what & how you collect, but yes, how about putting on the brakes for a while until it all shakes out?

I personally don't see the reason to do that, but I respect your decision to do so.

[maniac_73]

I collect because its something fun to do with my son and teaches him about baseball history. I learned in the 90's when the junk wax bubble went bust that this hobby is not an investment..at least for me..Im still waiting for my Kevin Maas rookie to pay for my retirement lol

[egbeachley]

In all seriousness, I think we have reached the tipping point.

If you want unaltered cards in your collection you are safer buying them raw rather than graded.

[drcy]

Clearly, collectors are going to have to rely on more that the professional graders to judge if a card is altered. And one learns how to identify alterations by owning and examing raw cards.

And there will be a point that a particular collector can do a better job than the professional grader at identifying if his cards are altered, if only because they spend more time examining the card. In fact, considering the time professional graders take to examine a card, there's no reason to believe that there will soon be many collectors better able to identify alterations than grader-- but this won't include collectors who only buy graded cards and keep them in the holders..

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1315750


Here's to your fun and games and love for the hobby. It's already over and ruined for me and countless others, but maybe a few more of you dupes will wake up and stop talking about the new pannini release, pops & registry's, hot pack,your old judges, e-98's, t206, bowman chrome et al WHO THE F CARES? STOP SUPPORTING THIS Fraudulent hobby until you can come to realize just how stupid you are for supporting a racketeering enterprise so out of control that every card is suspect, IMHO

Here is another of the uncountable criminals in the hobby and how they make a living doing it. Close associates of PWCC. shocker! IMHO, there are 100's of guys like this working with PWCC, PSA and former employees of PSA. it is rotten to the core. PERIOD.

I find it fascinating that people are not revolting. It's very amusing and laughable watching the human condition of minions and followers. How about you guys wake up and STAND for something?

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

No disrespect for what & how you collect, but yes, how about putting on the brakes for a while until it all shakes out?

Believe me, I get not supporting something that I am opposed to.

Putting on the brakes for a while? Is one to assume that there is currently nothing good or honest in the hobby? That there is no way to get a fair and honest deal done?

I'm trying to understand this.

Likewise, with the opioid situation that has been created/advanced by SOME doctors, and SOME of big pharma, and SOME pharmacies, should I also not go to my doctor or my local pharmacy for my blood pressure meds or when I'm sick, until the issue is resolved?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Chuck- I don’t understand what you are suggesting. Personally, i’ve collected what I collect long before grading was around. I have few graded cards and, if PSA and SGC went away tomorrow, it would not have a significant impact on my collecting. Should I stop collecting because of the current card doctoring? The point I am making is that the hobby is an amalgam of different types of collectors. Some, like high grade registry guys, are directly impacted by the current scandal and might be advised to rethink their collecting strategy. Others, like myself and other old time collectors, don’t grade much and although we find card doctors equally repugnant, are not directly impacted by them to the same degree.

I fall into this category as well...been collecting cards 43+ years...only vintage almost 30...i've never been too condition sensitive. I really like the collection I have put together...and I'm not rushing to get out...BUT...I've certainly changed my purchasing habits as of lately...and while I also find the grim reality of this hobby to be repugnant and shocking...I'm happy still collecting albeit on a different level.

I agree that many with lots of $$$$ tied up in high grade "commodities" and/or big buck cards...just keep chugging along hoping that things will continue as they have so far. And many seem not to really care if their cards are altered as long as they are not fake.

So has there been such growth in the hobby the last 5 or so years to make green cobbies in vg worth 10-15K? Will this be a 50K card in our lifetimes?

Who knows?

I just hope people are punished and changes do occur to improve the hobby...and I think the hobby is moving towards values based on the eye appeal of a card and not the technical grade...with alterations not mattering to more and more "collectors/investors" as time goes by.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Yoda

People are not revolting because they have too much skin in the game.

I mean, I have 100K in 'the game" and I still don't really care to support it. Seriously, why would anyone continue to feed a criminal enterprise?

I always try to stand up for right vs wrong (in my own mind at least), I guess it's just in my nature?

[RCMcKenzie]

I like the part of the hobby where people talk about a walk-off homer in 1906 and post a $75 card of the guy. It's just a hobby for me. I like baseball. The grading and prices for 8's 9's and 10's is and has always been kind of silly to me. I don't really see anything new about any of it.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I mean, I have 100K in 'the game" and I still don't really care to support it. Seriously, why would anyone continue to feed a criminal enterprise?

Great question but not everyone is part of the criminal enterprise. I am old school as I have been collecting for the better part of 45 years and have continued my old school ways of collecting. I don't dabble in any of that high end stuff and collect what I like but most importantly, I use my experience and expertise to know if a card I just bought is how a card of that age should look, feel and smell. I have always used the rule that if a card looks too good to be true it likely is.

I go to local shows or buy from people who have shown themselves to be selling quality, unadulterated material but most of all, I do not need a third party to tell me how good a card is as I already know it because of experience. I think we can all stay in the hobby and stop feeding the criminal enterprise if one doesn't let their ego get in the way. Stop needing the highest quality card and paying stupid prices for the right to own a Wally Moon 1959 Topps PSA 9. Ungraded that cards goes for a few bucks so be happy with that. As others have said I blame the registry for fueling the stratospheric prices of even the most common, highly graded cards and the egos of the people who need to be at or near the top.

If we go back to old school happiness I feel one will be happy with what you collect. Is this a simplistic view on the current hobby? Sure it is but then again...is it really?

[frankbmd]

Thumbs upChuck.

I have only purchased a couple of cards this year, one from Barry.

Jeez, I hope he’s not part of a racketeering enterprise.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Thumbs upChuck.

I have only purchased a couple of cards this year, one from Barry.

Jeez, I hope he’s not part of a racketeering enterprise.

Well I sold a total of about four cards this year, so it wouldn't be very much of a racket.

I probably fall somewhere between Chuck's dystopian view of a hobby gone to hell, and Jay's love of baseball history and the early artifacts of the game. Yes, this scandal really gave the hobby a wallop and I don't blame anybody who decides to throw in the towel. But I still think it's possible for each of us to find a way to enjoy collecting.

Unfortunately, the way the hobby evolved was it became way too much about making a lot of money. And the TPG's entered the game with the promise of cleaning things up, but I think all they've really done is pour more gasoline on the fire. They became extremely powerful and in order to make a lot of money, you had to go through them. Maybe it would have been better if the hobby focused more on our love for baseball cards, and not on the minutiae of how square a corner should be. I know so many people feel the hobby is still better with the advent of third party grading, but I am going to respectfully disagree. I think they have done more harm than good.

But if one can focus on the great history of the game, and find something to collect that isn't so dependent on somebody else's opinion, I think there is still a way to enjoy this hobby.

[LuckyLarry]

One thing from the provided link. A 1959 Topps baseball card #58 Eddie Miksis sold for $3,605. Thats a ten cent card.
Larry

[ALBB]

If the whole hobby crashed, It would not bother me at all.
Im a lower grade/ for fun collector.
Been at it forever... have always collected for the enjoyment of it.
Yes, Ive occasionally spent over a few hundred bucks for a card, but if they all became worthless.. Id still enjoy it

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by ALBB

If the whole hobby crashed, It would not bother me at all.
Im a lower grade/ for fun collector.
Been at it forever... have always collected for the enjoyment of it.
Yes, Ive occasionally spent over a few hundred bucks for a card, but if they all became worthless.. Id still enjoy it

Hopefully that doesn't happen but it wouldn't hurt me much either. Too many have turned cards into shares of stock. PWCC didn't help when they started their Investment Market Indices seen here https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/market-indices.

[Elderwood17]

Originally Posted by ALBB

If the whole hobby crashed, It would not bother me at all.
Im a lower grade/ for fun collector.
Been at it forever... have always collected for the enjoyment of it.
Yes, Ive occasionally spent over a few hundred bucks for a card, but if they all became worthless.. Id still enjoy it

I am a low grade collector as well, but still would have a bit of angst if it totally crashed. I do feel though that the premium being paid for the 9s and 10s has been a bit crazy, but if that pops it may not impact the mid or low grade cards that much.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by LuckyLarry

One thing from the provided link. A 1959 Topps baseball card #58 Eddie Miksis sold for $3,605. Thats a ten cent card.
Larry

Exactly!! That's the main reason I posted this collecting tip. "Learn to not factor in grade when determining rarity". It's just not a rare card. It's hard to say who's at fault the most. The graders, the trimmers, or the people buying and selling these cards and driving the prices up. Some may be upset with me for saying the buyers and sellers but here's a perfect example.. There are certain cards I hoard and I've single handedly driven up the price on them. When another card comes up for sale, I have to pay much more for it. It's totally my fault. But it's my choice and I'm not doing it to make money.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1315750


Here's to your fun and games and love for the hobby. It's already over and ruined for me and countless others, but maybe a few more of you dupes will wake up and stop talking about the new pannini release, pops & registry's, hot pack,your old judges, e-98's, t206, bowman chrome et al WHO THE F CARES? STOP SUPPORTING THIS Fraudulent hobby until you can come to realize just how stupid you are for supporting a racketeering enterprise so out of control that every card is suspect, IMHO

Here is another of the uncountable criminals in the hobby and how they make a living doing it. Close associates of PWCC. shocker! IMHO, there are 100's of guys like this working with PWCC, PSA and former employees of PSA. it is rotten to the core. PERIOD.

I find it fascinating that people are not revolting. It's very amusing and laughable watching the human condition of minions and followers. How about you guys wake up and STAND for something?

Why do you have the need to tell me, and everyone else what to do? I'll live my own life, if it is okay with you. And if I choose to still collect cards, on my modest budget, you can go ahead and keep hurling your insults ("dupes", "stupid", "minions", "followers", etc.) but all that does is reveal your anger, rudeness and apparent control freak nature... My continuing to collect baseball cards says nothing negative about me.

Go live your own life. I'll not judge your former choices that got you into a situation of spending $100,000 on cards you now think are fraudulent, but I might make note that if I did need someone to tell me what decisions to make in life, you would not be my first choice.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Why do you have the need to tell me, and everyone else what to do? I'll live my own life, if it is okay with you. And if I choose to still collect cards, on my modest budget, you can go ahead and keep hurling your insults ("dupes", "stupid", "minions", "followers", etc.) but all that does is reveal your anger, rudeness and apparent control freak nature... My continuing to collect baseball cards says nothing negative about me.

Go live your own life. I'll not judge your former choices that got you into a situation of spending $100,000 on cards you now think are fraudulent, but I might make note that if I did need someone to tell me what decisions to make in life, you would not be my first choice.

I see your points and respect your opinions. I just think it's funny how people won't give it a rest and stop supporting a criminal enterprise.

Never been accused of being a control freak. I don't control anybody except myself so that part I think you are wrong. I'm many other things but that misses the mark. I'd really just like all collectors to stand up to the fraud. Is that too much to ask?

[timn1]

Beautifully put, Mark-

Originally Posted by Mark17

Why do you have the need to tell me, and everyone else what to do? I'll live my own life, if it is okay with you. And if I choose to still collect cards, on my modest budget, you can go ahead and keep hurling your insults ("dupes", "stupid", "minions", "followers", etc.) but all that does is reveal your anger, rudeness and apparent control freak nature... My continuing to collect baseball cards says nothing negative about me.

Go live your own life. I'll not judge your former choices that got you into a situation of spending $100,000 on cards you now think are fraudulent, but I might make note that if I did need someone to tell me what decisions to make in life, you would not be my first choice.

[topcat61]

While I've taken a step back and look at the things I'm adding to my collection (as they say, work smarter, not harder), I still love the hobby, meeting people and realize probably more than ever that the hobby and Baseball has a lot to teach us. I most likely wont be making any big purchases but this is and should be a reminder, a wake up call as to why I got into the hobby to begin with. Was never about the money, but as a tool for my own education and really helped me keep away from drinking and drug use. And that is the real reason why I continue to collect.

[SMPEP]

I'm in the cards values will decline substantially over time camp (look at antiques, stamps and coins) - but not because of the current scandal (although that won't help).

It all about demographics.

There are not as people going to baseball games. There are not as many watching baseball on TV. And bluntly, the game is not as important to society as it was in the 1950s and 1960s. And with all the specialist pitcher changes and all the take pitches to run up pitch counts stuff - I find the game WAY less interesting than when I was a kid.

Today it's NBA and NFL (with a HUGE life from Fantasy Football). They're fast. they're exciting.

So long term - those cards will go up in value and baseball will fall (especially for those insanely overpriced Mickey Mantle cards).

The current buyers are just too old to sustain the market that much longer (a decade at most), and the younger buyers are more into modern stuff AND they collect less stuff than the prior generation.

The only reason not to sell my cards now - I don't have enough money invested in them to matter! When you buy a card for $1, all you can lose is $1. And if I do, my heirs suffer - but I enjoyed having the card and I made the money - so that's a bad break for them.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

When you buy a card for $1, all you can lose is $1. And if I do, my heirs suffer - but I enjoyed having the card and I made the money - so that's a bad break for them.

Ditto. And this thread needs another card image



"In 1955, there were 77,263,127 male American human beings. And every one of them in his heart of hearts would have given two arms, a leg and his collection of Davy Crockett iron-ons to be Teddy Ballgame."

[drcy]

As I've said before I anticipate pricing changes. I think some will leave the hobby or not sink as much money in, certainly not into "high grade" graded cards. Many people who otherwise would have won't enter the hobby, or enter with the same amount of "investment" money, when the learn the hobby is rife with corruption, wrong grades, illegal activity and entities that actually enable such behavior. Certainly, skepticism of grades and graders will rise tremendously. Further, even if conservation and alterations are more hobby accepted and normalized, I find it hard to believe that someone will still pay the same exponentially more for a 10 over a 9, or a 9 over an 8, because one altered card was altered microscopically better than another altered card. Even if you love altered cards, you're not going to pay an extra $100,000 for a card because a wrinkled was spooned better-- especially when, for the same effect, you could get the lower grade card and have it altered to your liking and higher grade for $200.

No question the normalization of alterations, and even acceptance of it, will reduce the grade rarity of many cards (as more and more cards will become "better and better" condition), which will lower prices there. That idea is borrowed from Barry Sloate and his keen insight.

The new knowledge about the capabilities of graders, and the prevalence of altered cards, will change how cards are considered and thus priced.

But there will also be a cottage industry for cards that have not been altered, and more knowledge about which cards are altered and which are not WILL rise substantially with time.

[mechanicalman]

Good idea, Adam. Let's show some cardboard we LOVE.

Some recent pick-ups on the way. Purchased from a reputable establishment (REA) for prices that reflect strong demand in the marketplace.

I'm well aware of what's going on and have changed my habits accordingly, but I will continue to be an active and positive participant in the hobby. Sorry, Chuck.

[Exhibitman]

Back at ya, with your avatar:



Got the card when I was a kid; got the card signed at one of Gehringer's last autograph sessions.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

I'm in the cards values will decline substantially over time camp (look at antiques, stamps and coins) - but not because of the current scandal (although that won't help).

It all about demographics.

There are not as people going to baseball games. There are not as many watching baseball on TV. And bluntly, the game is not as important to society as it was in the 1950s and 1960s. And with all the specialist pitcher changes and all the take pitches to run up pitch counts stuff - I find the game WAY less interesting than when I was a kid.

Today it's NBA and NFL (with a HUGE life from Fantasy Football). They're fast. they're exciting.

So long term - those cards will go up in value and baseball will fall (especially for those insanely overpriced Mickey Mantle cards).

The current buyers are just too old to sustain the market that much longer (a decade at most), and the younger buyers are more into modern stuff AND they collect less stuff than the prior generation.

The only reason not to sell my cards now - I don't have enough money invested in them to matter! When you buy a card for $1, all you can lose is $1. And if I do, my heirs suffer - but I enjoyed having the card and I made the money - so that's a bad break for them.

Disagree. Young buyers start with modern because it has a low entry point. If you buy the right card at the right time, you can make a lot of money. Those collectors aspire to buy early Topps & Bowman cards of Mantle, Clemente and Jackie or Prewar cards of Ruth, Wagner and Cobb when they can afford them. I can't tell you how many times I have heard "made money off of a prospect, want to buy vintage."

Popularity of the sport is irrelevant to collectibility. The NFL is the most popular league, but its cards lag behind MLB and NBA. World Series TV ratings were about double what they were for the NBA Finals. So, there is still enormous interest still in the sport. It is also the first sport that most kids play with Little League. I don't see baseball cards going anywhere.



I'll add a card too. I'm still buying the right high end cards. I don't think this one is trimmed or altered. I have always taken care in what I buy or who I deal with. This scandal has just caused me to slow down, but I will wait for the FBI to do a thorough investigation and all the facts to come out before I jump to conclusions.

[jchcollins]

Assuming by now OP has backed down from the ledge of his original request that we all simply ditch the hobby or refrain from purchasing en masse until card values become dramatically deflated, or all of the bad guys go to jail. One, you know personal freedoms and all, and two - completely unrealistic even for a few seconds.

I’m probably not going to say anything new here, but I’m a collector and not an investor, and while it would not hurt my feelings for a minute to suddenly see PSA have to shutter their doors, at the end of the day I’m still going to be a baseball fan and a hobbyist. I have nowhere near 100k tied up in cards, and if I find myself in that situation one day I’m probably also going to be in divorce court.

Question - what did adult hobbyists find to talk about back in the 1980’s and 90’s when there were no TPG’s and no internet message boards? (I was only a kid hobbyist then, whose mother occasionally indulged his obsession with cards from the 1950’s and 60’s.) And with such substantial less risk of being caught at doing something so outrageous as altering old baseball cards to make them look better - how do we not know or even assume that the level of alteration going on back then was WAY more prevalent than what we are seeing with PWCC today? This is after all ostensibly why PSA was even founded. The point is it did not stop the memorabilia explosion that we thought was happening back then, which is even more ridiculously explosive and overall healthy as evidenced by the dollars which continue to flow today. I would agree with some of the other posts here which point out that yes the economy and other situations will go up and down, but I would have to imagine another Hooverville-esqe situation on the world stage before the day comes that I’m actually able to afford a decent ‘52 #311 for less than the value of my car.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Question - what did adult hobbyists find to talk about back in the 1980’s and 90’s when there were no TPG’s and no internet message boards?

They wrote letters to hobby publications like Sports Collectors Digest, which was the combined equivalent of eBay, Net54, and Blowout when I got seriously back into the hobby in 1991. Plus local card shops and local card shows, where most of the buying and selling that's now done online took place.

Here's one of my hobby history posts that details a big controversy over the commercialization of the hobby that took place in 1968-69. A lot of these discussions have been going on for a long time.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=234476

Also, see these articles in SCD about fake autographs and the problems with PSA -- from 1996, 23 years ago. They were raising many of the same issues we're dealing with today.

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=271015

Originally Posted by jchcollins

And with such substantial less risk of being caught at doing something so outrageous as altering old baseball cards to make them look better - how do we not know or even assume that the level of alteration going on back then was WAY more prevalent than what we are seeing with PWCC today? This is after all ostensibly why PSA was even founded.

See this post about the first wave of counterfeit cards to appear in the hobby, in 1972-74. Before that there wasn't enough money in the hobby to justify anybody going to the trouble to fake stuff. But the hobby's steady growth in the 1970s (corresponding with the first baby boomers getting enough disposable income to try to recreate their childhoods) brought in a lot more money, and with it the crooks.

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262868

[GasHouseGang]

Who would have imagined Alan "Mr Mint" Rosen would have been the voice of reason back in 1996. In that SCD article he says, "I believe there is a true need for a service, to tell someone that the card is not trimmed, to tell someone it's not fake or doctored in any way or bleached. That would be a great service for the hobby. But once you put that little number on it, that creates greed. And we don't need that right now. We need to bring customers back in, not alienate them."

[drcy]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

Who would have imagined Alan "Mr Mint" Rosen would have been the voice of reason back in 1996. In that SCD article he says, "I believe there is a true need for a service, to tell someone that the card is not trimmed, to tell someone it's not fake or doctored in any way or bleached. That would be a great service for the hobby. But once you put that little number on it, that creates greed. And we don't need that right now. We need to bring customers back in, not alienate them."

Back in the day, Rosen also had an interesting definition of Mint: from the pack fresh. That meant the card be off center, have a print defect, etc-- but it had to be as fresh as if it was just pulled from the pack. As I write, I kinda like that definition.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by drcy

Back in the day, Rosen also had an interesting definition of Mint: from the pack fresh. That meant the card be off center, have a print defect, etc-- but it had to be as fresh as if it was just pulled from the pack. As I write, I kinda like that definition.

David,

I still use "pack fresh" (if they are) when describing cards, especially lots. I try to provide 'guidance' as to the centering of the cards, but I don't always get into specific OCs (80/20, 70/30, etc). I usually scan a 'sampling' of the cards as an indication. I would also note if there were gum stains on x number or y% of the cards. Again, mostly for lots. Technically, they are not "mint", but I rarely go higher than NM when trying to specify a grade anyway.

Individual cards get the 'high scan treatment' with a statement of grade without considering centering and noting any defects as needed. Most can tell how well the card is or isn't centered and judge on their own what the means to them.

I get a lot of "exactly as" or "better than" described, which may mean I leave money on the table, but oh well. My piece of mind and not having to worry about nit picking is worth the cost.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by drcy

Back in the day, Rosen also had an interesting definition of Mint: from the pack fresh. That meant the card be off center, have a print defect, etc-- but it had to be as fresh as if it was just pulled from the pack. As I write, I kinda like that definition.

I met him briefly once, and helped work a table across from him at a show (for the show promoter)

That idea of the preservation of the card being the important part is probably the only thing we ever had in common. He did know his cards though...

[JohnP0621]

First let me start by saying that I have also been a long time collector and I am not happy with the current situation and fraud . I mostly collect Prewar T205-T206, Goudey etc and some 50s-60s stars Mantle , Mays , Aaron etc
95 % of my cards are graded Psa - SGC grades 3-5 . I like my cards graded and protected .I have approx 400-450 cards and My guess wound be that none of them are altered or trimmed. A lot of them I bought raw and sent in myself for grading and the rest I bought from reputable dealers at shows , EBay and right here on Net 54. I enjoy this hobby and am not going to let a few dishonest A-Holes ruin my enjoyment. I do not have high end cards or need the best example or highest graded. The OP and many others are suggesting that the whole Hobby is a criminal enterprise and I totally disagree . There are many , many more descent hobbyists and sellers then crooks. You just need to know who your dealing with.

John P

[Jim65]

I hope the scandal chases all the douchebags away. The people who smoked cigars, drank expensive wine, drank all the weird coffee because it was hip, then moved on to the next fad.

A lot of the morons who have to have the #1 rated set in the registry but couldn't tell you what team the players played for. The guys who spend $20,000 for a 1/1 of the biggest prospect, just to brag on YouTube but couldn't pick that player out of a lineup or even pronounce his name correctly.

I wouldn't miss any of those assholes.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Assuming by now OP has backed down from the ledge of his original request that we all simply ditch the hobby or refrain from purchasing en masse until card values become dramatically deflated, or all of the bad guys go to jail. One, you know personal freedoms and all, and two - completely unrealistic even for a few seconds.

I’m probably not going to say anything new here, but I’m a collector and not an investor, and while it would not hurt my feelings for a minute to suddenly see PSA have to shutter their doors, at the end of the day I’m still going to be a baseball fan and a hobbyist. I have nowhere near 100k tied up in cards, and if I find myself in that situation one day I’m probably also going to be in divorce court.

Question - what did adult hobbyists find to talk about back in the 1980’s and 90’s when there were no TPG’s and no internet message boards? (I was only a kid hobbyist then, whose mother occasionally indulged his obsession with cards from the 1950’s and 60’s.) And with such substantial less risk of being caught at doing something so outrageous as altering old baseball cards to make them look better - how do we not know or even assume that the level of alteration going on back then was WAY more prevalent than what we are seeing with PWCC today? This is after all ostensibly why PSA was even founded. The point is it did not stop the memorabilia explosion that we thought was happening back then, which is even more ridiculously explosive and overall healthy as evidenced by the dollars which continue to flow today. I would agree with some of the other posts here which point out that yes the economy and other situations will go up and down, but I would have to imagine another Hooverville-esqe situation on the world stage before the day comes that I’m actually able to afford a decent ‘52 #311 for less than the value of my car.


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Didn't really change my position. I think everyone should step back and take a deep breathe for about 3 years. It's getting to be re-god damned ridiculous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuBHak_S7bE

that people would continue to feed an KNOWN fraud. It's really just a symptom of the human condition that people are so very stupid and trusting.

Where is Bernie Madoff? I'd like to invest in his fine high paying fund.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

I choose to not do business with PSA, and I am enjoying the hobby just fine.

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[whitehse]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

I choose to not do business with PSA, and I am enjoying the hobby just fine.

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I cannot agree with this more. I had thought about taking part of the current group submission to PSA but in the end I felt I would be hypocritical for me to do such a thing as I just don't like PSA's business practices. THey are going to continue take our money without addressing any of our concerns so I will just choose to take my business elsewhere.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by whitehse

I cannot agree with this more. I had thought about taking part of the current group submission to PSA but in the end I felt I would be hypocritical for me to do such a thing as I just don't like PSA's business practices. THey are going to continue take our money without addressing any of our concerns so I will just choose to take my business elsewhere.

Thanks. And for that matter, I am less than enamored with any TPGer and not just because of recent events. Yes, I do have a few graded cards...but fewer than I previously did. I have collected for at least 30 years (wow that sounds strange to say), and I don't need their "help." I understand some really like cards in TPG holders. To each their own. Everyone is different. Bottom line is that this hobby is a source of fun and escape for me, always has been and always will be. Entities like PSA or whomever else won't ruin it for me.

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