1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's

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Posted By: Chad

Are we not talking about the Josh Gibson Toleteros? In explaining why I value the card, I think I'm adding to the discussion of why the card goes for thousands and thousands of dollars despite the fact it's a tribute card. ALL cards ONLY have value for sentimental reasons and so I think my post is pretty much right on topic. But I guess I shouldn't post anymore since I now have been told not to. I'll go stand in the corner. And, yes, there's beer in the corner. And I value the beer a 3 dollars a pint even tho it's an Irish issued beer.

--Chad

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Peter:

Maybe the 1949 Leaf set really ISN'T "skip numbered"??

Maybe we just haven't found all the Josh Gibson and Mickey Mantle cards yet!!

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Posted By: andy becker

i think any collector can have his own top ten list without having to answer to others.
we all have our own opinions.....why try to project your beliefs on someone else?

as always, i think a beer is a good call.

edited to respond to hal's last post.
hal, you are a classic!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Mark, that's correct. And the dropoff in value of this card is astonishing in such a short period of time (2 months?).

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Posted By: Joe P.

I hear through the grapevine that Ultra Upper/Lower Deck is putting out a set in 2006 with a touch of history.

The set will be made up of the current players in baseball except for the first two.

The set will be called, "Let's Play Two".

Player #1 will be ANSON, followed by player #2 Josh Gibson.

Anson #1 sp. (short print)

Josh Gibson #2 sp - sp. (even shorter) --- just an inside tip.

Be the first kids on the block to get them before they disappear.

BTW:
My favorite Toletero is that of Jose Enrique Montalvo - catcher.
Back in the '40's and early '50's, I knew him and his family very well.
One day in Central Park he said to me, "OK Joe, let's see what you've got?"
Never got to San Juan to try out for the team - Korean War.

I LUV this thread.

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Posted By: Cat

The argument for why you would want to own the Gibson Toleteros card is an extremely easy argument. IT IS THE ONLY CARD OF A TRULY GREAT BASEBALL PLAYER. This hobby to me is ultimately about baseball...not about special cardboard, errors in printing, etc. SURE, I like having rare back T206s, but only of HOF baseball players. I have no interest in collecting cards of poor or even marginal players (it's OK to me that other people do...I just have no interest in that). I want to have cards of great players. Some think Gibson was the greatest. I am not sure I agree, but I do agree that he was great. If you are going to collect cards of great players, then I somewhat see this card as a must...your personal finances permitting.

Edited to correct typos unless otherwise noted.

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Posted By: Mark

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=114&auctionid=603

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Posted By: Josh Evans

For the record I found 4 or 5 in my initial trips to Puerto Rico last year
Since then, nada
This is the last one in the current Lelands auction
Not to say I won’t find another tomorrow but this is the end of the original “find”
Josh Evans

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Posted By: James Feagin

For those who have the funds and the desire to own this card, that's OK. However, I would never pay that much for an "all time great tribute" card. Josh Gibson may have been great, but we really will never know. As we will never really know how great players like Sadaharu Oh or Victor Starffin were. For those reasons, I wouldn't have so much enthusiasm in bidding on it. However, if that's your cup of tea, then go for it!

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Posted By: fkw

If you collect a card from every Hall of Famer, you need this card. Thats why its so pricy. HOF collectors need it. How many vintage Gibson cards are out there, and how many collectors are HOF collectors. Its all supply and demand. Look at the prices of other high demand Negro leaguers cards. And there are only a handful of each known.

1909 Cabanas Pete Hill 15,000+
1910 Punch Mendez $15,000++
1923 Billiken Pop Lloyd $13,000
1923 Billiken Oscar Charleston $15,000
1923 Billiken Torriente $6,000
1949 Tolleteros Hilton Smith $19,000
1949 Tolleteros Leon Day $12,000
1950 Tolleteros Josh Gibson $25,000+
etc.

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Posted By: identify7

A postcard with a baseball theme becomes a baseball card at the point that the original purchaser makes their choice (rather than "Sunning in Miami, wish you were here)" based on the theme portrayed.

As another example, in the early '50s topps produced non-sport cards depicting cars (Wheels), airplanes (Wings), trains (Rails) and sailing boats (Sails); but no warships. I cut out the side of a plastic, glue together warship model box cover which showed a warship, and the resultant cutout was about the size of the Topps cards. This cutout survived with some of the Topps, and other cards of my youth.

The point being: the identification of a baseball (or other similar) card, as such, is made on a gut level by the original owner of the item. This identification, although irrefutable, can be difficult to ascertain. imho.

To me, my cutout warship is a legitimate card, eventhough that was not its manufacturer's intent. I may have some difficulty selling it, but why would I want to do that anyway.

Sorry for the rambling, all. I guess this doesn't really clear up Hal's inquiry.

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Posted By: Paul

I will gladly pay $15,000 for a Cabanas Pete Hill or a Punch Jose Mendez. Please let me know where I can find one.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Interesting read. Gibson's greatness seems to be growing by the hour...almost as fast as the number of these cards turning up. [REA has one also].

Frank

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Posted By: Marc S.

<<For the record I found 4 or 5 in my initial trips to Puerto Rico last year>>

Josh: Just curious, how many unique/different examples have you handled altogether? How many others did you handle before your initial trips to Puerto Rico? From my understand - there are actually three of these going to be on the auction block in the next few months - Leland's (yours), Lifson and perhaps another one in Ryan's.... To me that leads to some obvious conclusions.

~ms