Beckett Grading - This Does NOT Look Good

[Rhotchkiss]

Posting this thread from Blowout. This is why I value a Beckett slab same as PRO or GAI. I wonder if given this information, Beckett still stands behind its confirmation letter.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1#post15871104

[swarmee]

For those that don't know, this card trades around $500K and there are 99 copies of it. So Beckett confirming a BGS 9 for a card that can be proven to be altered is mind-blowing. But this is actually the second time they've done it on this same card. #25 was also "reviewed" by Beckett and they again deemed it unaltered despite photographic and language from the original owner that it was damaged. It originally graded a BGS 8 twice, then trimmed, then graded a 9.5 and "confirmed" 9.5 despite proof of alterations.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...ight=exquisite
Scroll all the way to the end of this very long thread to read that story. It's like PSA with the NM-MT hand cut T206 Wagner.

[swarmee]

PWCC's lawyer is looking into it now; was not apprised of this one or #25/99 before PWCC and Beckett re-confirmed both "grades." I wish some companies actually feared the ongoing FBI investigation...

[irv]

Originally Posted by swarmee

PWCC's lawyer is looking into it now; was not apprised of this one or #25/99 before PWCC and Beckett re-confirmed both "grades." I wish some companies actually feared the ongoing FBI investigation...

That's what I don't get at all?

Maybe they know something I don't, but I can tell you if I was under a known investigation, I think I'd go far out of my way to ensure things were on the up and up.

With some of these, even with the FBI breathing down their necks so to speak, it seems like it is business as usual to them??

[Leon]

Originally Posted by irv

That's what I don't get at all?

Maybe they know something I don't, but I can tell you if I was under a known investigation, I think I'd go far out of my way to ensure things were on the up and up.

With some of these, even with the FBI breathing down their necks so to speak, it seems like it is business as usual to them??

It's not what you know it's who you know.

[Rhotchkiss]

I found this article. Looks like Beckett is already defending one suit. Let’s hope it’s soon multiple suits.

http://www.sportscardradio.com/card-...brady-rc-card/

[swarmee]

And there is also the class action lawsuit that PSA had moved up to Federal District Court. Since BGS doesn't (and to my knowledge has never had) a guarantee that it's grades are true and complete, I'm not sure what a lawsuit against Beckett will actually provide. One against PSA where PSA does not pay out, as well as against SGC on a card graded when SGC had a Guarantee would be easier to challenge. But that's just me talking it out.

[chalupacollects]

Must follow the money....

[swarmee]

From the legal team:

Sun May 10, 2020 11:04 pm

User avatarCalvindog
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:11 pm
Posts: 221
Contact: Contact Calvindog
Re: PWCC - Do You See a Difference?
The card has been pulled from the vault.

There has to be more info provided to buyers than just a letter from Beckett which, as Peter pointed out, is akin to the (crooked) fox guarding the henhouse. As Ryan noted, I have no idea if Beckett was provided the pictures which were contained in the Blowout thread.

One thing I have learned in the past few years is sometimes before and after pics can be misleading. What sometimes appears as a "built up" corner is often times just a cleaned and pressed down corner -- which is acceptable in many parts of the hobby. On the LBJ card, I have no first-hand info as to what occurred to make that left edge issue disappear, but it sure looks bad. Regardless, anyone looking to buy that card should be given more info than just a Beckett letter. This isn't a $59 card.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Posting this thread from Blowout. This is why I value a Beckett slab same as PRO or GAI. I wonder if given this information, Beckett still stands behind its confirmation letter.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1#post15871104

I agree with vintage cards that they are on the same level as PRO and GAI. The modern guys sure do like their slabs though.

Originally Posted by Leon

It's not what you know it's who you know.

Unfortunately knowing the right person has let some really bad people get away with a lot of slimy stuff.

[bmcnutt]

None of these grading companies are good for the hobby. They've all participated in corrupting the industry & hobby. I wish there were only companies that authenticated cards and do away with the numerical grading system. It has destroyed the hobby. Cards with a $25.00 Book Value being sold for $500.00 because someone's opinion says its a perfect 10? C'mon!

[PowderedH2O]

And even if it came to just authentication, the witch hunters would still have their pitchforks out to catch every mistake, because all of the board posters are perfect in grading.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

And even if it came to just authentication, the witch hunters would still have their pitchforks out to catch every mistake, because all of the board posters are perfect in grading.

You do realize PSA charges up to $5,000 per card to authenticate and grade items? If you're going to be spending coin like that, don't you think you deserve an honest and reliable company? PSA doesn't even measure cards to see if they're 2.5x3.5; it's obvious from the trimmed ones they've let through. Use a black light to detect alterations? Notice pinholes in cards? Writing on cards going unnoticed? There's a huge laundry list of alterations and damage that they don't catch.
But just keep white knighting.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

And even if it came to just authentication, the witch hunters would still have their pitchforks out to catch every mistake, because all of the board posters are perfect in grading.

No, you are right. We should all just be quite and pretend that the "experts" are not charging thousands of dollars to (purportedly) grade and authenticate and making claims to "Never Get Cheated". Never get Cheated.... that is EXACTLY what happened (See other thread): PSA Authenticated a REPRINT and PWCC called it exceptional for the grade and slabbed a sticker on it!! But, us witch hunters should let that go and move back to Salem.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=283015

[Republicaninmass]

People will pay for an opinion, akin to paying for therapy!

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I found this article. Looks like Beckett is already defending one suit. Let’s hope it’s soon multiple suits.

http://www.sportscardradio.com/card-...brady-rc-card/

This gentleman actually has 2 suits against Beckett. One is where he is calling them incompetent and the other where he is defending their grade on a card...

Can't make this stuff up....

[packs]

I know there are issues with TPGs but does anyone really think these issues would ever get caught if it weren't for TPGs? The only comparison you have for some of these cards is how they looked in their prior slab (excluding numbered cards).What would be your basis for comparison otherwise?

Also, would you really want to go back to trusting some guy's definition of near mint again? I know I don't.

[phikappapsi]

I really wish they simply did not "grade" cards. There should be two classifications of cards

"Authentic, Unaltered"

"Authentic, Altered"

The first of which asserts the card is genuine, and has not been manipulated. The second of which states the card is also genuine but has been manipulated (dyed, soaked, bleached, pressed, trimmed etc.)

Beyond that, the human eye, and good scans can determine condition. If a company came out that simply offered those two attributes, I'd use them.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

And even if it came to just authentication, the witch hunters would still have their pitchforks out to catch every mistake, because all of the board posters are perfect in grading.

such a dopey comment.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by packs

I know there are issues with TPGs but does anyone really think these issues would ever get caught if it weren't for TPGs? The only comparison you have for some of these cards is how they looked in their prior slab (excluding numbered cards).What would be your basis for comparison otherwise?

Also, would you really want to go back to trusting some guy's definition of near mint again? I know I don't.

They dropped the ball on so many cards it's hard to believe they weren't in on it somehow. They're too expensive, but I would like to see some of the better trims in person to see if I can tell.

Yes, there were a few outliers. and outliars, but the bigger dealers were mostly good by the standards at the time. (Mainly meaning someone organized enough to have a store or constant presence at shows - the flea market guys were a very mixed group)
there were really only 5 grades then, maybe BCCG will come out of this as the best grading service...

Right now I'd trust myself more than a grading company.

[Bamacollection]

IMO, Grading is completely subjective. I think it will be hard to prove fault by a grader, unless you can prove participation in upgrading a piece. We, the collectors, have given the grading companies all their value. PSA, SGC, Beckett, GAI, PRO... they all have said "Our opinion is more valuable than yours" and we have validated the statement. The one thing that baffles me the most is why an expensive card is more to grade than a common card? Do they spend more time with these cards? Are they giving my commons less attention? Or, are we paying to get our expensive cards in the "right" holder with a more costly submission?

Just my thoughts... And, btw, I do like to submit cards.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Bamacollection

IMO, Grading is completely subjective. I think it will be hard to prove fault by a grader, unless you can prove participation in upgrading a piece. We, the collectors, have given the grading companies all their value. PSA, SGC, Beckett, GAI, PRO... they all have said "Our opinion is more valuable than yours" and we have validated the statement. The one thing that baffles me the most is why an expensive card is more to grade than a common card? Do they spend more time with these cards? Are they giving my commons less attention? Or, are we paying to get our expensive cards in the "right" holder with a more costly submission?

Just my thoughts... And, btw, I do like to submit cards.

Regarding the part in bold... Just ask PT Barnum... he will set you straight on this question.

Of course the PSA and TPG apologists will conjure up an answer to justify this virtual theft, as collectors gladly fork over extra cash to have some poor overworked kid take the obligatory 30 seconds to deem their Star Card worthy of a random number.

All of this makes The Emperors New Clothes look like an Armani Suit. But people are making money right now, so it's all good!

Editing to correct myself... The obscene premium tacked on is an Insurance issue. Yeah, riiiiight

[steve B]

Almost everyone in other hobbies does the same thing with fees.
I think it's probably partly an insurance thing. The less time something is in the building, the less potential for something to go wrong.
It could also be seen as being a portion of value added.

I could probably do certs on some stamps, or cards, but getting that expertise recognized is difficult. The stamp expertizers (In the US) generally have some training under another expert, and work within a somewhat narrow range of stuff, and usually for a larger organization. (It's different in Europe, but the knowledge level is the same, and they also work in narrow fields. )
Think along the lines of someone just doing T206s, or just 52-56 Topps.

Naturally the opinion of someone like that is "worth" more than mine, simply because nobody would know if I was any good at it until a few years in.
One of the big stamp dealers started doing his own certs that were very basic, sort of a triage cert. No picture, no fancy certificate, just a small green paper with the ID of the stamp and his opinion of it - what it was and any noted flaws. (pretty much what the big outfits do) He had something like 50 years in the business, maybe more. And he only charged $5.