Gone with the stain. Dick Towle

[barrysloate]

I know Dan. And I don't think collectors want to know what is really going on. They would much prefer to simply protect their investment, and sweep all the bad news under the carpet.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I know Dan. And I don't think collectors want to know what is really going on. They would much prefer to simply protect their investment, and sweep all the bad news under the carpet.

It's not that some collectors don't want to know, it's what can you do if you (or anybody else) can't detect it?

Maybe it's just me, but I have way more important things to worry about in life than an undetectable stain removal process in a card.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It's not that some collectors don't want to know, it's what can you do if you (or anybody else) can't detect it?

Maybe it's just me, but I have way more important things to worry about in life than an undetectable stain removal process in a card.

I understand David, and other people have better things to do also. And keeping the status quo is one of them. The hobby is humming along like a well oiled machine, people are making money, so why rock the boat?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Looking at the Gone With The Stain website, it appears that cards with stains or glue removed were later graded by SGC and PSA:

http://www.gonewiththestain.com/mickey-mantle.html

http://www.gonewiththestain.com/samp...-our-work.html

[steve B]

I don't see a problem with cleaning.

It's very common with museums. The LOC has some excellent articles on specific conservation projects they've done.
http://www.loc.gov/preservation/conservators/

They go much farther than most collectors would. But that's not unusual. In some fields it's almost required. Many old posters are preserved by backing them with linen attached with a rice paste. They're simply too fragile otherwise. LOC also does deacidification to slow the degradation of stuff on acidic papers. (They even tried building a machine to do books in bulk since their collection will take so long to do some of it will be lost)

I'm not sure about alterations that go beyond cleaning and preservation when it comes to cards.
Many of the strip cards probably should get some treatment, deacidification for sure for the ones that aren't already brittle and coming apart.

Removing creases and trimming- isn't ok for cards, especially in a collecting context.
Rebuilding and repainting- I don't see it as appropriate, although in extreme cases it might be. The Wagner that was reconstructed the un done was a maybe. And large display pieces perhaps should be restored.

Disclosure is always an issue. Most museums etc now keep careful records of what was done and how. But that wasn't always true. I believe most very old paintings on display have been cleaned. There's been some debate whether it should be done for some. One side wants the painting shown as it was when new, the other prefers leaving it in a preserved state that keeps the original colors muted as we've come to expect to see them under 300+years of dirt/dust from the air.

A straightforward light cleaning will pass SGC and probably PSA.
Here's the before and after of the one I did. Water only, Q-tip and a soft cloth to dry with. probably close to 100 years of dust and soot. The fine cracks in the papers coating wouldn't come clean without more extensive efforts.

Before



After



Slab aside, which card would you rather own? Who would leave the card dirty, knowing that the dirt would probably cause further damage with time?

Steve Birmingham

[sam majors]

After reading this I am sure that there are three shysters now forming a limited liability corporation. They will specialize in determining if a graded card has been altered, restored or cleaned. Company name will be ARC. They will charge a small fee at first, knowing the lemmings will follow.
Business plan is to hire their children or the kid next door at less than minimum wages to paste labels on the backs of graded cards. To save money and the work load on their sons and the kid next door, they will have only one label printed. All labels will say NOT ALTERED, RESTORED OR CLEANED. The lemmings will follow!
Eighteen months later at "THE NATIONAL" father and son stop at one booth. Son says to Daddy, "Daddy look, here is a PSA 9 Mickey Mantle rookie card!" Daddy grabs the card, turns it over and says, "Son we can't buy this. It has no ARC label."
After hearing this, the dealer immediately rushes over to the ARC booth. Less than 35 seconds later, with a smile on his face, the dealer places the card with the NOT ALTERED, RESTORED OR CLEANED label in the center of his show case.
Next customer says to the dealer, "Can I see that Mantle rookie card? Dealer hands it to him. Customer immediately turns it over, sees the NOT RESTORED, ALTERED OR CLEANED label and says, "I'll take it!"
Another new gimmick!!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Looking at the Gone With The Stain website, it appears that cards with stains or glue removed were later graded by SGC and PSA:

http://www.gonewiththestain.com/mickey-mantle.html

http://www.gonewiththestain.com/samp...-our-work.html

That's what I've been saying. If they can remove a stain leaving no detectable evidence (nothing you can see, smell or feel), then how would the grading companies know? Why wouldn't they (or shouldn't they) grade numerically if no evidence is left behind from the process?

[wonkaticket]

BTW this thread is so funny. I would love to hear the comments if the title of this thread said.

FBI uncovers evidence of card cleaning by major auction house to increase card values by using chemicals to enhance cards value before they went to auction. The result of which has cost collectors countless amounts of money for chemically treated cards and items.

I’m 100% sure the response would be well I couldn’t tell, how could I tell, TPG's couldn't tell so no big deal, lighten up FBI.

Furthermore let’s be honest this isn’t about flicking a piece of tobacco off with your fingernail or wiping a card with a q-tip. Dick isn’t using a wet towel to remove stains and tape residue from cards he’s using chemicals and solvents, and I'm not naïve enough to think that his clients all have noble intentions for enlisting his services.

Nothing is wrong with some mild conservation work as long as it’s disclosed and everyone here knows it will never be disclosed.

Cheers,

John

[steve B]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

BTW this thread is so funny. I would love to hear the comments if the title of this thread said.

FBI uncovers evidence of card cleaning by major auction house to increase card values by using chemicals to enhance cards value before they went to auction. The result of which has cost collectors countless amounts of money for chemically treated cards and items.

I’m 100% sure the response would be well I couldn’t tell, how could I tell, TPG's couldn't tell so no big deal, lighten up FBI.

Furthermore let’s be honest this isn’t about flicking a piece of tobacco off with your fingernail or wiping a card with a q-tip. Dick isn’t using a wet towel to remove stains and tape residue from cards he’s using chemicals and solvents, and I'm not naïve enough to think that his clients all have noble intentions for enlisting his services.

Nothing is wrong with some mild conservation work as long as it’s disclosed and everyone here knows it will never be disclosed.

Cheers,

John

I agree that more aggressive efforts should be disclosed.
And that many of them won't be.

My one attempt at removing scotch tape with solvents went poorly. Fortunately it was a F-G 59 common that I simply wanted to keep it from sticking to the card in front of it. someone had covered the entire front with tape. The tape hade peeled off, leaving a gummy mess of adhesive. The solvent was a bit too solventy (Yeah, not a real word ....Yet) And took only some adhesive along with "some" ink. Totally wrecked.

I guess my ambivalence comes from having a wide range of hobbies and having some restoration being either totally ok or accepted as routine in most of them.

Old bicycles - Original is King, but replacing tires and brake pads is fine for most and full restoration including rechroming and repainting is common. Some team stuff is not what the decals say, and "restorers" have probably wrecked a number of real race bikes fixing "fakes" - Not that there aren't fakes. For most bikes changing parts to suit the person using it is totally ok. It's altering, but can be fixed by changing back if the owner saved the original parts. (Some of my bikes have parts I had to make since they're not available anywhere - My work while it looks ok from a few feet away wouldn't be mistaken for original unless someone had no clue at all, and I've marked the pieces I did a better job of. )

Cars - I'm not active anymore, but restoration is obviously common. As is cobbling things together to make something into something it wasn't. Or if there's enough money involved making one good one out of a bunch of wrecks. ----same issues with disclosure.

Coins - Original is best, and cleaning is frowned on. But nearly all bright silver coins have been cleaned to some degree.

Stamps - Probably the closes to cards. Altering is very bad, repairs as well unless they're disclosed. most are so amateur they don't need much disclosure. A missing corner "repaired" by gluing a corner from a similar stamp onto the back is pretty obvious. But removing old hinges is ok, and especially valuable stuff that's fragile can be stabilized. Lots of fakes, and their version of TPG takes its time rather than rushing the most expensive stuff. (And gets it right nearly all the time)

Antiques - undisclosed repairs aren't ok. different stuff has different standards. most of the stuff is functional or for display, so while originality is massively important nobody looks down on a properly done restoration of something that was basically ruined somewhere along the line.
So the tall chest of drawers on Antiques roadshow that was refinished because the owner didn't like the original finish - not so good. For the one where you find it covered in "antique" paint and toleware decals from the early 1970's refinishing is ok.
A lot of furniture at lower level antique auctions and shops is repaired. Sometimes with old wood and old screws. It's pretty much accepted. Nobody gets too excited if the $500 sideboard has had the drawer that came apart reglued and the missing screw from one leg replaced.

Most older mechanical stuff like clocks and science equipment needs maintainance to prevent needing major repairs. Replacing something like a mainspring isn't a bad thing if it's needed.



I get that if someone is paying a LOT of money for originality then the item should be original.

But some damage that's easily undone probably should be.


Steve B

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

BTW this thread is so funny. I would love to hear the comments if the title of this thread said.

FBI uncovers evidence of card cleaning by major auction house to increase card values by using chemicals to enhance cards value before they went to auction. The result of which has cost collectors countless amounts of money for chemically treated cards and items.

I’m 100% sure the response would be well I couldn’t tell, how could I tell, TPG's couldn't tell so no big deal, lighten up FBI.

Furthermore let’s be honest this isn’t about flicking a piece of tobacco off with your fingernail or wiping a card with a q-tip. Dick isn’t using a wet towel to remove stains and tape residue from cards he’s using chemicals and solvents, and I'm not naïve enough to think that his clients all have noble intentions for enlisting his services.

Nothing is wrong with some mild conservation work as long as it’s disclosed and everyone here knows it will never be disclosed.

Cheers,

John

More likely, the FBI will say if collectors don't seem to care, why should we?

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

BTW this thread is so funny. I would love to hear the comments if the title of this thread said.

FBI uncovers evidence of card cleaning by major auction house to increase card values by using chemicals to enhance cards value before they went to auction. The result of which has cost collectors countless amounts of money for chemically treated cards and items.

I’m 100% sure the response would be well I couldn’t tell, how could I tell, TPG's couldn't tell so no big deal, lighten up FBI.

Furthermore let’s be honest this isn’t about flicking a piece of tobacco off with your fingernail or wiping a card with a q-tip. Dick isn’t using a wet towel to remove stains and tape residue from cards he’s using chemicals and solvents, and I'm not naïve enough to think that his clients all have noble intentions for enlisting his services.

Nothing is wrong with some mild conservation work as long as it’s disclosed and everyone here knows it will never be disclosed.

Cheers,

John

I get what you're saying John, but that's just not the case. We can't just play "what if's" and if we did, this site would be frustrating as hell. The standing point from the other side has been that this sort of cleaning is not leaving any evidence of altering or defects...so why are we calling it unethical? If cleaning a card alters it in any way, I would be against it...so I guess time may be the determining factor here for me. But to just say it's wrong without having something to fully back it up just seems like a weak rebuttal to the original statement.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

BTW this thread is so funny. I would love to hear the comments if the title of this thread said.

FBI uncovers evidence of card cleaning by major auction house to increase card values by using chemicals to enhance cards value before they went to auction. The result of which has cost collectors countless amounts of money for chemically treated cards and items.

I’m 100% sure the response would be well I couldn’t tell, how could I tell, TPG's couldn't tell so no big deal, lighten up FBI.

....

John

This is intriguing - would the FBI consider chemical treatment the same as they considered trimming? If neither was disclosed, both cards ended up slabbed, and the 'work' was done to enhance value without disclosure, other than the fact that the 'stuff removed wasn't actually 'card', it sure seems like the same thing.

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That's what I've been saying. If they can remove a stain leaving no detectable evidence (nothing you can see, smell or feel), then how would the grading companies know? Why wouldn't they (or shouldn't they) grade numerically if no evidence is left behind from the process?

Every museum in the word cleans restores pieces of art. It amazes me that tobacco cards could or should be held to higher standards than those applied by art museums dealing with "one of a kind" treasures of art, many older than the cardboard discussed here.
If you found out your favorite card had been treated and cleaned would you obsess over it? sell it ,or love it less or just find something else to fret over?
FYI I never heard of this service before.
Paul C

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Maybe it's just me, but I have way more important things to worry about in life than an undetectable stain removal process in a card.

+1. (It's not just you.).