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  #21  
Old 08-11-2018, 05:31 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
It states here that Hassans are printed in green ink. Almost all the Hassans I've owned plus the ones I see online are black ink. I saw a green ink yesterday for the first time and decided to look into it further. Imagine my surprise when I find this thread claiming they're all green.

Any new information on this?
They are all green, there are no black Hassanís in this issue. Cards printed early after refilling the ink are dark green that can look black, but on careful consideration are not. The ink got lighter through a print run, thereís no true variation
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  #22  
Old 08-11-2018, 06:20 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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But this doesn't address the break down between green Hassan and Black Hassan. I've found all of this information elsewhere. Thanks for trying to help but the question still needs answering, what is the difference in green and black Hassans. Is one more populous than the other, are the differences attached to certain cards are series of cards? Anything to clarify the two color situation would be appreciated!

EDIT: This was in response to your first post sorry.

In response to your second post, man I have owned these and never questioned that they were black. Have a decent eye, but I'll have to grab a couple "black" Hassan's and really check them out.
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Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 08-11-2018 at 06:21 PM.
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  #23  
Old 08-11-2018, 07:09 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
But this doesn't address the break down between green Hassan and Black Hassan. I've found all of this information elsewhere. Thanks for trying to help but the question still needs answering, what is the difference in green and black Hassans. Is one more populous than the other, are the differences attached to certain cards are series of cards? Anything to clarify the two color situation would be appreciated!

EDIT: This was in response to your first post sorry.

In response to your second post, man I have owned these and never questioned that they were black. Have a decent eye, but I'll have to grab a couple "black" Hassan's and really check them out.

I thought the same thing for awhile. The inks have aged and itís sometimes hard to separate dark green from black or brown from black in other issues. Some other issues do have Hassan backs printed in both colors, like the T30/T118 set, but no T218 Hassanís are actually black. Iíve owned and traded thousands, have never seen a true black
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  #24  
Old 08-12-2018, 01:34 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
the full checklist is known. Series confusion stems from the Hassan 30 reverse found on all 2nd series cards

Series 1 cards have Mecca 30 and 649 backs and Hassan 30/649 backs. HJ Handy does not exist with either Hassan. He was pulled for the Jack Johnson green card mid way through, it appears. The Johnson green violates some rules all other cards follow. There are 3 name errors that were corrected.

Series 2 cards have Mecca 30/649 and Hassan 30/649 with series 2 51-100 notations. They have Tolstoi backs without a series notation as well (Johnson green has no tolstoi). They also ALL come with a Hassan 30 back missing the second series notation. This is true for every card, and that all 2nd series cards have this series 1 back is why the misinformation and confusion over the series has occurred for many years.

3rd series cards have Mecca 30 and 649 backs only with different series name. The 12 track cards have variations in the caption.

The only questions remaining in the checklist are whether the S P Gillis error exists with a Mecca 30 (some say yes, but nobody can produce a scan) and the cloughan error. I have this card, but it is missing on every other checklist and nobody else has reported one.

Thanks for that info! It really reduces the number of cards I thought I needed. I had columns on the spreadsheet for all second series with no series number, and Tolstoi for all three series.


I'm not familiar with the errors and variations, is there a place to see that list?
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  #25  
Old 08-12-2018, 05:13 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Thanks for that info! It really reduces the number of cards I thought I needed. I had columns on the spreadsheet for all second series with no series number, and Tolstoi for all three series.


I'm not familiar with the errors and variations, is there a place to see that list?

Hey Steve,

Unfortunately, most of the information out there on the forums is incorrect or misleading when it comes to T218. This article, by a Mr. George Vrechek, is mostly accurate: http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.co...-of-the-t218s/ but is missing the Cloughan and some small details. On your master set checklist, Jack Johnson (Green) also does not exist with a Mecca Factory 30, no series notation back.

The only variations (besides brand/factory/series numbers) come in the first series.

C.D. Trubenbach has his name misspelled on the front only as "Trudenbach"

The card of S.P. Gilles spells it "Gillis" throughout the text on the variation reverse, before it was corrected. To make it more complicated, his name was properly spelled "Gillis", so American Lithography accidentally corrected the back, when they should have corrected the front.

These two cards have been rarely talked about but long known, for at least 15 years or so by some collectors.

The third variation comes on the card of Robert Cloughen. His name can be found missepelled throughout the text on the back, just like Gillis, as "Cloughan". I have owned a copy of this card for many years and have never seen another. I have never heard anyone else mention it, or report one. If anyone else knew about this card, they sure kept quiet about it!

The cards were clearly not printed in equal numbers and corrected together at once. "Trudenbach" is the most common error. It's tough, a very small minority of his cards that were printed (if I had to guess, based on what I've seen the last 15 years or so, I would say around 2% of Trubenbach's), but you can find one if you look carefully for awhile. Gillis is tougher, his card will appear for sale very, very rarely and stretches of years have gone by without a single one being publicly offered. Trudenbach has a Mecca 649 and Mecca 30 reverse (I have only seen one with a Fact. 30 back myself, I own it). Gillis is confirmed with a Factory 649 back. Some other collectors have told me they have seen it with a Factory 30 back, but I cannot find anyone who says they own one or has a scan, so it may or may not exist. The single known Cloughan has a Mecca 649 back. I am positive there are other Cloughan errors out there, but it seems the most difficult of the 3 and I would be quite surprised if this card was ever found with a Mecca 30 back. If anyone has these errors, I would love to know which ones you have, especially if you have a Cloughan!

For their great scarcity, the variations carry essentially no increased $ value, as people either don't care or don't know, and master set collectors seem to be almost non-existent for this issue (I'm over 2/3 there, maybe one day!).

In total, there are 637 confirmed cards in a T218 Master Set. This number grows to 638 or 639 if Gillis and/or Cloughan are ever confirmed with a Factory 30 back. These are the only two cards not presently confirmed that I think could possibly exist out there somewhere. I would be shocked if the master set ever grew beyond 639.

If Recurring Print Defects are your thing, McGrath has a variation on his Mecca 30 card with a brightly clear smudge in the lower left border (post 23 here: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=251642&page=3). The hobby seems inconsistent on whether recurring defects are "variations" or not, but it is recurring. 2 Blank backs are known (Rector and Handy, I own the Handy), but in my mind scrap isn't needed for a master set.

The Cloughan is attached; error is bottom middle:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Cloughan.JPG (63.5 KB, 125 views)
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  #26  
Old 08-14-2018, 12:56 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
Hey Steve,

Unfortunately, most of the information out there on the forums is incorrect or misleading when it comes to T218. This article, by a Mr. George Vrechek, is mostly accurate: http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.co...-of-the-t218s/ but is missing the Cloughan and some small details. On your master set checklist, Jack Johnson (Green) also does not exist with a Mecca Factory 30, no series notation back.

The only variations (besides brand/factory/series numbers) come in the first series.

C.D. Trubenbach has his name misspelled on the front only as "Trudenbach"

The card of S.P. Gilles spells it "Gillis" throughout the text on the variation reverse, before it was corrected. To make it more complicated, his name was properly spelled "Gillis", so American Lithography accidentally corrected the back, when they should have corrected the front.

These two cards have been rarely talked about but long known, for at least 15 years or so by some collectors.

The third variation comes on the card of Robert Cloughen. His name can be found missepelled throughout the text on the back, just like Gillis, as "Cloughan". I have owned a copy of this card for many years and have never seen another. I have never heard anyone else mention it, or report one. If anyone else knew about this card, they sure kept quiet about it!

The cards were clearly not printed in equal numbers and corrected together at once. "Trudenbach" is the most common error. It's tough, a very small minority of his cards that were printed (if I had to guess, based on what I've seen the last 15 years or so, I would say around 2% of Trubenbach's), but you can find one if you look carefully for awhile. Gillis is tougher, his card will appear for sale very, very rarely and stretches of years have gone by without a single one being publicly offered. Trudenbach has a Mecca 649 and Mecca 30 reverse (I have only seen one with a Fact. 30 back myself, I own it). Gillis is confirmed with a Factory 649 back. Some other collectors have told me they have seen it with a Factory 30 back, but I cannot find anyone who says they own one or has a scan, so it may or may not exist. The single known Cloughan has a Mecca 649 back. I am positive there are other Cloughan errors out there, but it seems the most difficult of the 3 and I would be quite surprised if this card was ever found with a Mecca 30 back. If anyone has these errors, I would love to know which ones you have, especially if you have a Cloughan!

For their great scarcity, the variations carry essentially no increased $ value, as people either don't care or don't know, and master set collectors seem to be almost non-existent for this issue (I'm over 2/3 there, maybe one day!).

In total, there are 637 confirmed cards in a T218 Master Set. This number grows to 638 or 639 if Gillis and/or Cloughan are ever confirmed with a Factory 30 back. These are the only two cards not presently confirmed that I think could possibly exist out there somewhere. I would be shocked if the master set ever grew beyond 639.

If Recurring Print Defects are your thing, McGrath has a variation on his Mecca 30 card with a brightly clear smudge in the lower left border (post 23 here: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=251642&page=3). The hobby seems inconsistent on whether recurring defects are "variations" or not, but it is recurring. 2 Blank backs are known (Rector and Handy, I own the Handy), but in my mind scrap isn't needed for a master set.

The Cloughan is attached; error is bottom middle:
Thanks! I hadn't heard of them at all.

I've made "some" corrections to my spreadsheet that I use as a checklist.
I'll have to check if I have any of the good ones.
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  #27  
Old 08-23-2018, 02:48 PM
DaveW DaveW is offline
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I finally had time to go through all my T218/C52cards. Of interest to you:

I have:
- Gilles/Gillis with Mecca back, Factory 30
- Trudenbach/Trubenbach with Mecca back in both Factory 30 and 649
- Ruddy with a cool wet sheet transfer on the back

I have never heard of the Cloughen/Cloughan card until you showed it.

- Dave
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  #28  
Old 08-23-2018, 06:19 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW View Post
I finally had time to go through all my T218/C52cards. Of interest to you:

I have:
- Gilles/Gillis with Mecca back, Factory 30
- Trudenbach/Trubenbach with Mecca back in both Factory 30 and 649
- Ruddy with a cool wet sheet transfer on the back

I have never heard of the Cloughen/Cloughan card until you showed it.

- Dave
Thank you for the confirmation on Gillis M30 beyond any doubt! This is the last one I need for my variations subset now, unless someone finds a Cloughan with a factory 30 reverse. I have had the fact. 649 Cloughan for ~15 years or so and have had no luck in locating another. I'm sure there are more copies buried in collections out there somewhere though
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  #29  
Old 08-24-2018, 04:45 AM
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scooter729 scooter729 is offline
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I'm looking at my Cloughan right now - it's also a Mecca 649 back
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  #30  
Old 08-25-2018, 12:51 AM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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I'm looking at my Cloughan right now - it's also a Mecca 649 back
That makes at least two of them out there!
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