Slightly OT: Could the Braves and Indians be next?

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Presumably it's been explained to you why the Chief Wahoo imagery was considered racist and offensive - exaggerated caricature features (giant eyes, giant nose, etc) and red skin that are drawn directly from insulting/offensive stereotypes of Native Americans.

The fact you "don't see color/race" doesn't change really change anything. The design of the mascot and imagery was based on negative racial stereotypes.

Now, given that the mascot was based on offensive/negative stereotypes and, yes, that is undeniable, do you now understand why it needed to be removed?

Actually, I think it does matter that I don't see color/race. Isn't that the whole damn point of all of this? So if you choose to see it, that's on you.

So we have the Notre Dame Fighting Irish, with an aggressively-stanced caricature of an Irish Leprechaun. I'm assuming you're spearheading the movement to change that, too, on behalf of the Irish? What about the Boston Celtics? New England Patriots?

Nobody here put the Native Americans on reservations. However, everyone is asked their race/ethnicity on all sorts of documents. Everyone who applied to college was judged based on their race/ethnicity (hence their diversity quotas). I don't see a single person ever protesting outside of the reservations on behalf of the Native Americans. It's basically a bunch of non-Native Americans telling others non-Native Americans that they're racists for rooting for a team with a cartoon as a logo.

It sounds like you sleep just fine at night because a sports team logo no longer exists to offend you. Congrats. Don't tell me how to think. Let me sleep well at night, too, knowing I have identified the real problem, and changing a sports logo/team name doesn't even touch the solution.

[Aj-hman]

I believe that the braves, indians and redskins have an opportunity to succeed either way they go. I am sure there is a native american nation that would consider adopting one of these sports teams. If a sovereign native american nation adopts the team it would legitimize the sports organization and provide a benefit to both. Changing the narrative from that of caricature to one of respect could uplift the native american community and propel the sports team in a new respectful direction. Also creating new marketing opportunities. Open a dialogue with the leadership of native american community see what they have say about using their likeness and telling their story. There are so many benefits to opening a dialogue.

If keeping affiliation with native american branding is not the way forward then rebranding the team is an amazing opportunity. You get to create a whole new culture for your fans and create a deep well of marketing opportunities. With the social media allowing almost immediate feedback the fan base would practically rebrand themselves.

With adversity comes an opportunity for tremendous growth. Being positive and open minded to the inevitability of change leads to success.

Aaron

[packs]

Personally I think if these franchises wanted to honor Native Americans or their heritage they could make a pretty good show of good faith by hiring a Native American for a senior position with the franchise.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by packs

Personally I think if these franchises wanted to honor Native Americans or their heritage they could make a pretty good show of good faith by actually hiring a Native American for a senior position with the franchise.

Instead of trying to pander to an entire ethnic group, why not just hire people that are THE BEST for the job, period?? Isn't that the whole point of a modern cosmopolitan world, to ignore race and colour??

Trying to placate others by offering employment based SOLELY on skin colour is ALWAYS a losing proposition.
And giving someone a job does NOTHING to "honour" their culture or "heritage"... absolutely nothing.

This should be beyond common sense in 2020.

[samosa4u]

Isn't "Yankee" a derogatory term? Well, let's change it! Oh, and wait, what about the Vikings? That's a little bit racist too, no? Let's change that one as well! Like seriously, when are these people going to stop? Next we'll see animal rights groups going after teams.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Instead of trying to pander to an entire ethnic group, why not just hire people that are THE BEST for the job, period?? Isn't that the whole point of a modern cosmopolitan world, to ignore race and colour??

Trying to placate others by offering employment based SOLELY on skin colour is ALWAYS a losing proposition.
And giving someone a job does NOTHING to "honour" their culture or "heritage"... absolutely nothing.

This should be beyond common sense in 2020.

I guess it would depend on the position, no? A team honoring a particular culture or tradition might benefit from having someone around who is a member of it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Instead of trying to pander to an entire ethnic group, why not just hire people that are THE BEST for the job, period?? Isn't that the whole point of a modern cosmopolitan world, to ignore race and colour??

Trying to placate others by offering employment based SOLELY on skin colour is ALWAYS a losing proposition.
And giving someone a job does NOTHING to "honour" their culture or "heritage"... absolutely nothing.

This should be beyond common sense in 2020.

+1

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Instead of trying to pander to an entire ethnic group, why not just hire people that are THE BEST for the job, period?? Isn't that the whole point of a modern cosmopolitan world, to ignore race and colour??

Trying to placate others by offering employment based SOLELY on skin colour is ALWAYS a losing proposition.
And giving someone a job does NOTHING to "honour" their culture or "heritage"... absolutely nothing.

This should be beyond common sense in 2020.

Shhhhh! You'll be labeled as insensitive!

[david_l]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

I've been called a racist for supporting Chief Wahoo/the Indians, but how is it racist when I don't see skin color/race?

You’ve been called a racist because you are in a unique place of privilege where you have the luxury to ignore race and racism and apparently you choose to do so. You’ve been called a racist because you have an opportunity to assist in helping those who have been oppressed and otherized but you would rather ignore this opportunity. The concept and repercussions of race exist in this country even if you have the luxury of not acknowledging it. Many others don’t have that luxury. Whether you acknowledge it or not you have benefited from the racist legacy of this country. For example, do you know about redlining in Cleveland? (Don’t answer that)

I’m from Ohio and it also took me a long time to see these names for what they are, but that’s no excuse. Wahoo isn’t even arguable anymore though.

I wish I could say this nicer but your post comes off as really ignorant. Maybe try reading some history and sociology books by people of color. It’s 2020 and racism is finally getting (more) called out. I could be wrong but at least I’d be wrong on the side of compassion and empathy. I wish you and your family the best.

Written on Nez Perce land,

David Lu$ti$

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Isn't "Yankee" a derogatory term? Well, let's change it! Oh, and wait, what about the Vikings? That's a little bit racist too, no? Let's change that one as well! Like seriously, when are these people going to stop? Next we'll see animal rights groups going after teams.

One of our enlightened members answered that in post #27.

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[packs]

Poster deleted their comments. I will respect their edits and not quote them.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Actually, I think it does matter that I don't see color/race. Isn't that the whole damn point of all of this? So if you choose to see it, that's on you.

So we have the Notre Dame Fighting Irish, with an aggressively-stanced caricature of an Irish Leprechaun. I'm assuming you're spearheading the movement to change that, too, on behalf of the Irish? What about the Boston Celtics? New England Patriots?

Nobody here put the Native Americans on reservations. However, everyone is asked their race/ethnicity on all sorts of documents. Everyone who applied to college was judged based on their race/ethnicity (hence their diversity quotas). I don't see a single person ever protesting outside of the reservations on behalf of the Native Americans. It's basically a bunch of non-Native Americans telling others non-Native Americans that they're racists for rooting for a team with a cartoon as a logo.

It sounds like you sleep just fine at night because a sports team logo no longer exists to offend you. Congrats. Don't tell me how to think. Let me sleep well at night, too, knowing I have identified the real problem, and changing a sports logo/team name doesn't even touch the solution.

You didn't directly address it - do you not see why the Chief Wahoo logo was changed?

The difference between Redskins and Celtics/Patriots/Fighting Irish and the others is, of course, one is a racial slur and the rest aren't.

I'm not crazy about "Fighting Irish" but Irish people don't seem to care and it's not a racial slur. My main beef is that it's a school with a FRENCH name but called IRISH. WTF. [/snark].

[MooseDog]

If only things actually worked that way. I've both seen an experienced non-white candidates (I'm half-non-white but can pass either way) passed over who were qualified and maybe over-qualified for open positions.

Granted I'm in an industry that is both 99.9% run by white folks and steeped in good-ol-boy nepotism but them's the facts.

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Instead of trying to pander to an entire ethnic group, why not just hire people that are THE BEST for the job, period?? Isn't that the whole point of a modern cosmopolitan world, to ignore race and colour??

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

If only things actually worked that way. I've both seen an experienced non-white candidates (I'm half-non-white but can pass either way) passed over who were qualified and maybe over-qualified for open positions.

Granted I'm in an industry that is both 99.9% run by white folks and steeped in good-ol-boy nepotism but them's the facts.

People can either play victim and be miserable or they can deal with it and be optimistic.

I have lost opportunities because of my age (they figure I'm close to retirement - they're better off investing in training in someone younger who will stay and progress up the ranks.) I don't complain.

When I was a senior in college I was easily the best catcher on our team. But our coach had a lot of younger players and was trying to build up the program, so I spent most of the season on the bench. The freshman who played instead was a big, slow kid, but with some raw potential. Again, I didn't complain.

We have laws against discrimination. When you see it, fight it. But for the most part, like a poster above says, why not just enjoy life and work around the occasional bigoted, biased, jerk. And if you start sniffling out of self-pity, imagine what it's like for people born with severe illness, or dwarfism, or mental retardation.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by david_l

You’ve been called a racist because you are in a unique place of privilege where you have the luxury to ignore race and racism and apparently you choose to do so. You’ve been called a racist because you have an opportunity to assist in helping those who have been oppressed and otherized but you would rather ignore this opportunity. The concept and repercussions of race exist in this country even if you have the luxury of not acknowledging it. Many others don’t have that luxury. Whether you acknowledge it or not you have benefited from the racist legacy of this country. For example, do you know about redlining in Cleveland? (Don’t answer that)

I’m from Ohio and it also took me a long time to see these names for what they are, but that’s no excuse. Wahoo isn’t even arguable anymore though.

I wish I could say this nicer but your post comes off as really ignorant. Maybe try reading some history and sociology books by people of color. It’s 2020 and racism is finally getting (more) called out. I could be wrong but at least I’d be wrong on the side of compassion and empathy. I wish you and your family the best.

Written on Nez Perce land,

David Lu$ti$

I agree that being born a middle class white guy has afforded me some privileges. I didn’t ask for them nor will I apologize for them as well. As a country, we have to be very careful how we address privilege as a subject. It’s only natural that if you tell someone, anyone that they have the deck stacked against them, they are victims from birth and nothing can change that fact, then what motivation is there to look at the world from any other viewpoint? Instead of bemoaning my privilege and groveling, I’m more interested in how can we actually improve the human condition of people in places like Baltimore, Chicago, etc.

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[packs]

Poster deleted comment will respect the edit and not post them.

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[packs]

Poster deleted comment will respect the edit and not post them.

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[packs]

Poster deleted comment will respect the edit and not post them.

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by G1911

If we all have the same rights, then how do I have an advantage? To have an advantage, there would have to be a difference in the rights. So I ask again, can you name a single, just one, solitary right that I have due to my race that is denied others due to their race?

If blacks, for example, had the same access to opportunity, why are there only 4 total running Fortune 500 companies? What are there AmLaw firms with 0 black partners? How even how many blacks have had the chance to manage an MLB team or coach a NFL team, let alone own a franchise? For supposedly having equal access, they sure don't seem to be well represented high up on the food chain. Just because they can drink from the same drinking fountains and don't fear for their lives when they exercise their right to vote, don't fool yourself into thinking that they're on equal ground with whites.

[G1911]

Deleted again

[ElCabron]

Personally, the thing I’m most offended about is someone named “G1911” posting here without disclosing the name behind their garbage opinions. My name is Ryan Christoff. What’s yours? Then, maybe we can all discuss the issue, non-anonymously. Like grown-ups.

[Cliff Bowman]

If packs doesn't have to then G1911 certainly doesn't have to.

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

If packs doesn't have to then G1911 certainly doesn't have to.

Wow, some cowardly crap on this board. And you’re okay with this? They should all have to put their names behind their words. Anyone can send me a private message and I’ll give you my phone number to discuss anything further. I can’t promise you’ll appreciate my words in your ear, but I promise you’ll hear them. Man, how soft have people become???

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Wow, some cowardly crap on this board. And you’re okay with this? They should all have to put their names behind their words. Anyone can send me a private message and I’ll give you my phone number to discuss anything further. I can’t promise you’ll appreciate my words in your ear, but I promise you’ll hear them. Man, how soft have people become???

You are the coward for calling out one person because you disagree with him but condoning someone else doing the same exact thing because you agree with him.

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

You are the coward for calling out one person because you disagree with him but condoning someone else doing the same exact thing because you agree with him.

I thought I said “they should all have to put their names behind their words” but I’ll send you a message with my phone number and we can discuss who is a coward, Cliff Bowman.

[ElCabron]

That’s my real number in the message I sent, Cliff. Will you be calling?

[G1911]

As I am not criticizing any person, company, etc. I thought I was following the rules. As I understand it, one is allowed to have an opinion different from yourself. I'm not even criticizing Packs, I just disagree. As I understand the rules, you can't remain private as you are accusing me of "cowardly crap", etc., but I am allowed to have an opinion contrary to yours.

If I am breaking the rules I apologize and will delete, but then other folks are not allowed to do it either, who do not seem to be so aggressively 'called out'.

I don't see why you feel a need to dox me or argue on the phone? I tend to think of these matters as being about ideas, not about ad hominems and personal attacks (which is why I'm not making them). Perhaps I have a minority view here too.

The reason I prefer to stay private, though none of your business really, is, largely, that we are all posting about valuable collectibles here, it can be read by anyone, and it is very easy to ID members home addresses with their full names.

EDIT: There, they've been removed just for you. That you want to start an altercation over the phone with Cliff, a gentleman I don't know besides our very public chats on some Topps variations and his discovery of 66 Topps high number miscuts as a group sheet-recreation project (thank you for sharing, sir!), about what a "coward" and "garbage" I am because I have an opinion different from yours, is another excellent reason that I don't want you to have my personally identifying information to track me down. This is ridiculous.

[ElCabron]

It’s up to Leon. Normally people too cowardly to put their name behind their words aren’t allowed to post on anything that’s the least bit controversial, but maybe things have changed. No one wants to know your address or whatever else you’re afraid of. But if you’re too afraid to put your name out there because of your amazing collection that is better than all of the other people on this board who post their names, then maybe you should STFU?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

It’s up to Leon. Normally people too cowardly to put their name behind their words aren’t allowed to post on anything that’s the least bit controversial, but maybe things have changed. No one wants to know your address or whatever else you’re afraid of. But if you’re too afraid to put your name out there because of your amazing collection that is better than all of the other people on this board who post their names, then maybe you should STFU?

I'm pretty sure insults like this are also against the rules. I expect this to be enforced with the other posters who agree with you but have committed the same sin. Your hostility, insults, anger and inability to speak in a civil manner over somebody not having your opinion is not "grown up".

[williamcohon]

I think the names need to be changed. Some of the previous posts talked about not seeing racism. Others made the point that any transgressions happened long ago. It dawns on me that that’s probably true. Many states drove all their tribes out a long time ago. Only Indian names remain as a reminder of the sad history. In such circumstances, it would be easy to feel a disconnect, and be impatient with those who want to stir things up by changing team names.

Here where I live, a little north of Seattle, in Washington State, there are numerous reservations. I see Native Americans every day. The tribes hold written agreements and treaties that our federal government has failed to honor. The grievances are not tales from long ago. They are current, and they are raw. Reducing people to a cultural stereotype, and using that stereotype as a team mascot, is demeaning.

Don’t think so? Well how would it be if the name were changed to the Washington Honkies?

As for the Indians and the Braves, yes - they’re next. I suggest the Cleveland Engines. The name hardly changes, yet offends no one.

And the Atlanta Breves also hardly changes anything, but avoids insult. If you visit Starbucks, you probably know that a Breve is a drink with half-and-half. And all you musicians know that a breve is a note that lasts eight beats.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

That’s my real number in the message I sent, Cliff. Will you be calling?

Oh yeah, I am going to call a stark raving mad lunatic self loathing indoctrinated L word and have you scream incoherently at me with obscenities. Ain’t gonna happen.

[Leon]

I hadn't really been interested in this thread until I read it last night. I thien locked it and then reopened it. I don't want this place to be sterile. I prefer not to get involved in anything . The rule at the top is still the rule. But in this world everything isn't black and white. Still if you are calling someone names then your name is going to be out here. But just disagreeing..meh....

What we need, imo, is half of all social program money go to mandatory parenting classes for whomever gets any govt. handouts they didn't work for.

For the record I don't think any names of anything should be changed. And I don't think any monuments should have come down. Just one, well thought out, point of view.

,

[Aj-hman]

I hope you do not delete your posts in the future. Much like the statues of war leaders their symbolic meaning changes with time. I dont believe in sanitizing history the comments you make will stand as a testament of where we are in this moment as a nation painting a more vivid message for our country men that follow.
Kindly,
Aaron Heineman

Originally Posted by G1911

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[wondo]

I cannot believe we as a society have let the vile disgusting name continued to be used in the NFL. This is 2020 and no one should be subject to such public humiliation with a major sports franchise name that offends, degrades and panders to the lowest common denominator in our society. The name should be changed to the Virginia Redskins.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Aj-hman

I hope you do not delete your posts in the future. Much like the statues of war leaders their symbolic meaning changes with time. I dont believe in sanitizing history the comments you make will stand as a testament of where we are in this moment as a nation painting a more vivid message for our country men that follow.
Kindly,
Aaron Heineman

Unfortunately, the guy on the 'tolerant' side escalated things from a conversation and is now harassing other people because I disagree with their political view. This just isn't worth it.

[cannonballsun]

I think just about all the posters on this thread are missing the point. As White Americans, our opinions don't really matter on this issue. As well , the opinions don't really matter of Black Americans, or any other group besides Native Americans. Their opinion on this is what matters.
These names are applied to Native Americans. If they find it offensive, that should be enough for the rest of us. It's a matter of giving a fellow human being respect. If Native Americans want these names removed, that should be enough.
Respect your fellow human beings. Such a concept.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by williamcohon

I think the names need to be changed. Some of the previous posts talked about not seeing racism. Others made the point that any transgressions happened long ago. It dawns on me that that’s probably true. Many states drove all their tribes out a long time ago. Only Indian names remain as a reminder of the sad history. In such circumstances, it would be easy to feel a disconnect, and be impatient with those who want to stir things up by changing team names.

Here where I live, a little north of Seattle, in Washington State, there are numerous reservations. I see Native Americans every day. The tribes hold written agreements and treaties that our federal government has failed to honor. The grievances are not tales from long ago. They are current, and they are raw. Reducing people to a cultural stereotype, and using that stereotype as a team mascot, is demeaning.

Not only are the grievances from "not tales from long ago", they are current. The Supreme Court just rules *last week* that half of the state of Oklahoma is now considered reservation because the federal government failed to honor their treaties.

Last. Week.

[Tabe]

For the record, I have no problem with the removal of Confederate statues. Never understood why you would put up statues to honor traitors that lost while fighting AGAINST the United States. We don't put up statues for Mussolini or King George III...

[david_l]

Originally Posted by Tabe

For the record, I have no problem with the removal of Confederate statues. Never understood why you would put up statues to honor traitors that lost while fighting AGAINST the United States. We don't put up statues for Mussolini or King George III...

Totally agree.

The Confederate statues were put up as a show of white supremacy and to intimidate people of color. Most were put up in the first couple of decades of the 20th Century.

They were a show of intimidation. Not honor. Their message is clear as day. If anyone disagrees with me please do some research before touting your “beliefs.”

-D Lu$ti$

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

If packs doesn't have to then G1911 certainly doesn't have to.

Packs never met a post he didnt edit

[david_l]

This is a very interesting read. Much of the details I did not know.

The Atlantic. July, 2020
Title: Americans Need to Know the Hard Truth About Union Monuments in the West During the Civil War: Union soldiers in the West weren’t fighting to end slavery, but to annihilate and remove Native Americans.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...y-west/613918/

[drcy]

The rule of thumb is, within reason, to let the demographic group say what offends them. If Americans Indians say a name or mascot depicting them offends or doesn't offend them then the name or mascot offends or doesn't offend them.

It is not for others on the left or the right to decide what does or should offend them. Whites on the left and right can be equally condescending, patronizing and "unlistening" to minorities.

But that involves actually finding out (asking) what minority groups find offensive or not-offensive, and not assuming for them.

A standard argument is "Scandanavians in Minnesota don't find the Vikings name and mascott offensive." Okay, they don't find that offensive. That's great, more power to them. That sentiment, however, applies to the white Minnesotans and Vikings, not across-the-board to any and all mascots and any and all peoples. And, of course, it was more than likely that Scandinavians in Minnesota who picked and/or approved the team name.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by wondo

i cannot believe we as a society have let the vile disgusting name continued to be used in the nfl. This is 2020 and no one should be subject to such public humiliation with a major sports franchise name that offends, degrades and panders to the lowest common denominator in our society. The name should be changed to the virginia redskins.

lol!!!!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Packs never met a post he didnt edit

Just for the record, Packs and I just disagreed and it was completely civil. Packs only edited his posts after I deleted mine because I deleted them, which I did because ElCabron flipped out and started harassing Cliff and trying to get my contact info to berate me. Packs did nothing wrong.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by G1911

Just for the record, Packs and I just disagreed and it was completely civil. Packs only edited his posts after I deleted mine because I deleted them, which I did because ElCabron flipped out and started harassing Cliff and trying to get my contact info to berate me. Packs did nothing wrong.

Please dont give yourself much importance. He edits every post in every thread. Nobody cares why you did anything.