Baby Got "Backs" T206

[tedzan]

The lighter shade of green SOVEREIGN backs is well defined with respect to the fronts. Whereas in the PIEDMONT 460/42 case the lighter vs the darker
blue backs appears to be random.

There are 66 subjects that were printed with the lighter shade of green in the SOVEREIGN situation. These 66 will not be found with the normal (darker)
green that all the other SOVEREIGN cards were printed with. As it happens to be, 61 of these subjects are the ones that American Litho. extended into
what we have identified as the 350/460 series.

Some of the HOFer's in this series..................................



......350 Series common............................\/........................................Some more HOFer's in this series........................................\/





Of the 66 subjects with the lighter green backs....Joe Doyle, Simon Nicholls, and Bob Rhoades were not extended into the 350/460 series. Apparently,
since their Major League careers had ended prior to the printing of the 460 series.
Red Kleinow (NY) and Frank Smith (Chicago) were printed in the 350/460 series, reflecting their trades to Boston (AL).





List of the lighter green backs in the SOVEREIGN set........66 cards

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Joe Doyle (arms over head)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (NY-catching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rucker (bat)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago-white cap)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


Art Martineau and Jim Rivera first pointed out this color phenomena to me. Having a completed an all-SOVEREIGN set (and having many duplicates),
I was able to specifically identify these 66 cards with this color difference.


TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Ted, are you sure that Sovereign set you always talk about is complete? I’m not so sure.

Also perhaps while you relive your accomplishments on this set you can update your lists that you constantly bump up to be correct for others.

“Regarding my Consolidated T206 lists”
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=136704

Here are two quick and easy found mistakes.

I see you still have Doc White Port. listed as a Sov350 no print?

You were notified that Doc White existed in Sov350 and sold on eBay in 2009 (Post #52) on 10-19-2010 within this thread below.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...light=insights

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...icago-79662085

Ted you acknowledge on 10-20-2010 Doc White and claim to own the card and have added an example to your set (Post #55), yet Ted you have yet to update the list from 7-3-2010 to reflect this FYI.

Ted you have reposted the same list on 5-10-2011 and have still yet to remove Doc White from the Sov350 No-Print list FYI.

Now the next card, in 2007 a Rube Waddell Port Sov350 SGC 40 sold.

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...vereign-sgc-40

You still have Waddell Port. listed along with Doc White Port. listed as No-Prints in Sovereign list (Post #9) to date FYI.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125041

John

[Leon]

Hey John and Ted,
I am quite sure ya'll and the rest of us all want the same thing. We all want accurate lists. Even Jefferson Burdick made many mentions to verifying cards before adding to known lists. I say that we 100% verify what we are doing, by more than 1 board member (or known hobbyist), and then come out with updated lists so every one can be on the same page. If it's not verified, 100%, by at least 2 well known board members or hobbyists (who can be publicly known), then it probably shouldn't be added to lists. I don't think that is too much to ask, is it? And John, please don't start twirling into a whirlwind...I am not making any assumptions or accusations whatsoever. I am only trying to get lists put together that are 100% verified for the betterment of the hobby. If it's not been verified as stated above, or already agreed to by everyone, then the card in question should be removed until positive, multiple verifications have occurred. I know that Bob Lemke is in that process with several cards in the Big Book too. For the record anything I have ever verified I am more than willing to prove 100%. If anyone disagrees with the previous request please help us with what would be a better solution. take care

[wonkaticket]

Leon,

Not sure I’m twirling into any kind of whirlwind not sure what you are implying by that?

Pretty simple I want what most all collectors want accurate information.

I want whoever is posting such information to be as accurate as possible especially when it comes to lists which foundations spawn from many many years of collector’s efforts.

I don’t want false claims of ownership made to embellish lists and I want confirmed information not emails and stories to be the base of any information we put out to the collecting community.

Also I pointed out to Ted issues with his current list of Sovereign if he takes the info great if he throws a fit and claims he’s right and I’m a jerk well not much I can do.

However it should be of concern to anyone using his lists regardless of sides.

More importantly it shouldn’t be an issue that I pointed out these mistakes.

As the moderator of this board I know you want inaccuracies detailed as to protect the collectors who depend on this board for resources.

"I am only trying to get lists put together that are 100% verified for the betterment of the hobby."

Then we are on the same team.

No whirlwind here just sharing some images and having a nice thread on T206’s and a discussion on backs and brands in fact one I started.

Cheers,

John

[tedzan]

Leon and John M.

The list of SOVEREIGN 350 No-Prints of the 150/350 series cards on Post #9 in the SOVEREIGN link is still a "work in progress". The Doc White (portrait) and
the Waddell (portrait) have been confirmed with the SOVEREIGN 350 back. I noted this on a post on another thread back in Oct 1910.

Why I didn't update the list on the above stated Post #9 is an oversight by me. As I have said elsewhere, I have listed 4074 front/back T206 permutations
in that "Consolidated.......list"; and, there may be as many as a dozen inadvertent data errors. Even if this is so, that translates to 99.7% accuracy.

Hey guys, I'm not infallible. And, I have numerous times bumped that Thread, looking for additional inputs or any corrections. However, until now there have
not been any new inputs or corrections.


Thank you, John, for catching that oversight.

John, regarding this question of yours........

" Ted, are you sure that Sovereign set you always talk about is complete? "

My SOVEREIGN set of the 402 different subjects is complete. If you recall when you and Scott Mosely and I went to the Levy's (a few years back) I had the
set with me and we all went thru it. It also included the 6 "super-prints" with their scarce SOVEREIGN 460 backs.

Since then, I have been trying for a Master Set which would include all the SOVEREIGN 350 counterparts of the 150 series cards. And, I am approx. 1/2 the
way complete with these additional 90+ cards.


TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Ted, gotcha was more wondering since you had Waddell on the no-print list of SOV350 for sometime was wondering if you even knew you needed him etc. also to make sure you updated the list as you missed them.

I did enjoy looking at the set at the Levy's very cool, good luck on the master Sov set.

Cheers,

John

P.S."I noted this on a post on another thread back in Oct 1910." I hope the board hasn't been around that long nor you Ted or you should have a lot more T206's

[Leon]

John- I probably did the opposite of what I wanted/intended with the way I phrased my last comment. What I would like is for everyone to get along and lets try to get this thing back on track. If something is on a list that has not been verified, as per my thoughts in the previous post, then we should take it off of a list until there can be at least 2 people to positively identify it. Hopefully we can all agree to that and move forward. And I thank you, as well as the other board members participating, for continuing to help make sure the lists are verified and correct.

[tedzan]

Freudian slip, or perhaps wishful thinking....that I could be at least 110 years old

boy, don't we just wish we were 10 years old in 1910 when these T-cards were available


And, thanks for the good luck wish on completing a SOVEREIGN master set.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Note the quotation marks surrounding both the TY COBB and the COUPON brands. This is indicates that these two brands were brand new
American Tobacco Co. products in the Spring of 1910 and that their Trademark's were pending.

TED Z

The following article shows a relationship between Coupon cigarettes and The American Tobacco company before the spring of 1910 as well as the use of quotation marks surrounding the word Coupon.

August 6, 1908 Times Picayune New Orleans



The same contest was run again by ATC in August 1909 giving away either Coupon or Picayune cigarettes.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

The following article shows a relationship between Coupon cigarettes and The American Tobacco company before the spring of 1910 as well as the use of quotation marks surrounding the word Coupon.

August 6, 1908 Times Picayune New Orleans



The same contest was run again by ATC in August 1909 giving away either Coupon or Picayune cigarettes.

Tim,

If you're going to continue to contribute solid facts instead of opinions represented as facts, well, you'd better just leave.

Seriously, interesting info for anyone who's paying attention.

[wonkaticket]

Wow Tim, great item that does put some light on the subject huh?

[tedzan]

The W. R Irby Branch (New Orleans, LA) introduced their COUPON tobacco brand in 1908. However, it's my understanding that this brand was not
an American Tobacco Company (ATC) Trademark till sometime after the T213-1 cards (circa Spring 1910) were issued.


........................... 1910 .................................................. .......... 1914 .................................................. ............ 1919




The F. R. Penn Tobacco Co. was located in Reidsville, North Carolina (Factory #33). The F. R. Penn Tobacco Co. was purchased by ATC in 1911.



........... Factory 33 - 4th Dist. of N.C. ............................................... Feb/Mar 1910




The "PIRATE" brand cigarettes were produced in Bristol & London, England and the T215 type cards were inserted in them (circa 1912).





For more info on this "PIRATE" issue, check-out this thread.......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...5+pirate+cards



TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The F. R. Penn Tobacco Co. was purchased by ATC in 1911.

TED Z

ATC purchased F.R. Penn in 1903.

If I'm understanding the timeline correctly the former F.R. Penn Tobacco Company was replaced by the newly incorporated F.R. Penn Tobacco Company in September 1903. The purpose of this reincorporation was to partner with The American Tobacco Company and have them be the majority shareholder. The F.R. Penn Tobacco Company continued to be run as a separate company from the trust and ATC attempted to keep their controlling interest a secret. In 1911 when the trust was broken into several companies F.R. Penn was taken over by the new smaller American Tobacco Company.

There are board members that know a lot more about this subject than I do and maybe they'll have something to add or correct anything I missed.