T206 Doyle missing Dot after the Y in N.Y

[danmckee]

Check this out friends..... I find a "No Dot" after the Y in N.Y on ebay PSA graded in horrible shape. I buy it, it arrives and you can clearly see the dot on the card that is NOT visable in the seller's scan. Now he didn't advertise it as missing the Dot so I am guessing he didn't doctor the scan but how else could this have happened? You can clearly see the Dot after the N.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/125986758788 Click on this link to see the scan with no Dot

[midmo]

Could be a scanner issue. If there are any dust removal settings it can remove them. I've accidentally scanned and seen it remove the dots on PSA labels like a PSA 1.5 would become a 1 5

[effe]

delete

[danmckee]

I don't know about the scanner issue.... The Dot after the N is plain as day and after the Y is Missing plain as day.

[midmo]

Yeah results can be inconsistent. Scanner settings can obviously be adjusted. I've seen it remove one here or there (seemingly random), then remove more as you increase the setting.

If not a scanner issue then it had to be an intentional edit to deceive right? Curious did you ask the seller?

Originally Posted by danmckee

I don't know about the scanner issue.... The Dot after the N is plain as day and after the Y is Missing plain as day.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by midmo

Yeah results can be inconsistent. Scanner settings can obviously be adjusted. I've seen it remove one here or there (seemingly random), then remove more as you increase the setting.

If not a scanner issue then it had to be an intentional edit to deceive right? Curious did you ask the seller?

Yes I asked him, no reply yet but if he was going to intentionally do it, then why not advertise it in the title?

Idk I am just mind boggled here.... Not with Ebay though, they shit on me immediately closing the return even after saying they see the no dot and then the dot. in other words ebay allows sellers to doctor scans if they want. That is basically what they told me.

[jp1216]

My vote is a scanner setting to remove dust etc. I see a white dot on the glove too? Maybe a couple other 'marks' removed? The stain looks better on the eBay pic too.

[midmo]

I would hope it wasn't intentional, but if so maybe they're playing dumb and were hoping a couple people would notice the missing dot and bid it up w/o putting it in the description. I don't know.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by jp1216

My vote is a scanner setting to remove dust etc. I see a white dot on the glove too? Maybe a couple other 'marks' removed? The stain looks better on the eBay pic too.

Why didn't that scanner setting remove the dot behind the N then?

[danmckee]

Well at least I have proved the buyer isn't always right even when the buyer was right! Ebay took a healthy DEUCE on me making me keep it.

[jp1216]

I'd be surprised if the seller wouldn't simply accept the return - regardless of eBay's opinion. Good Luck Dan!

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by jp1216

I'd be surprised if the seller wouldn't simply accept the return - regardless of eBay's opinion. Good Luck Dan!

Yea I hear you, I would but we will see. It is only $215 but it is the principle with me. Funny ebay's letter suggested me reselling it on their site and I said sure, I will get about $45 for it as I will list it with correct pictures.....

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by midmo

I would hope it wasn't intentional, but if so maybe they're playing dumb and were hoping a couple people would notice the missing dot and bid it up w/o putting it in the description. I don't know.

I am with you Justin, I would hope it wasn't intentional either and maybe it wasn't but I just don't see how a scanner setting can completely wipe out the 1 dot and keep the other.

[danmckee]

I do truly appreciate all of the opinions here guys, TY Kindly!

[danmckee]

Update: No answer at all from the seller so far and I have been contacted by 1 very honest hobby friend who also had an issue with him.

So not looking good but I am more pissed at ebay. I have clear proof that the displayed item was portrayed different than I received it and they still smoked me.

[x2drich2000]

Almost certainly a scanner issue and I doubt it was intentional. Sometimes scanners will remove lines/dots depending on settings. Here is an example where my scanner removed the 1 in "1909" on the label and I never noticed it for a few years.



Dan, I'll also send you an email with some additional info on the seller.

[Leon]

Possibly a scanner issue, but that doesn't really change the issue of not being described correctly. If the scan shows something different than what is being bought, then it wasn't advertised correctly.

DJ- Can you PM me info you might have on that seller too?
I know someone that knows someone LOL.....

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

Almost certainly a scanner issue and I doubt it was intentional. Sometimes scanners will remove lines/dots depending on settings. Here is an example where my scanner removed the 1 in "1909" on the label and I never noticed it for a few years.



Dan, I'll also send you an email with some additional info on the seller.

[ricktmd]

Ebay has no interest in a dot missing. While is plausible that a scanner has something stuck to it as I used to have that happen back when I would scan documents with liquid paper on it. The next scan might have a line through it or pieces missing. This does not look like that to me. This looks like an alteration of the scan in photoshop or other program that has tools to erase or add stuff to pictures. Typical of Ebay to say it doesn't matter because they too offer tools to change or improve images on listing. I will use ebays tools to make the card online match the naked eye. If the seller doesn't respond he is at least a jerk and at worst a cheat. He is a t206 seller and even if it was an accident, he knows the values and should respond immediately if it was just a mistake. You could have asked before you purchased but I have done that before and then the seller posts the secret I found in their listing which is not great either. Regardless of why its a clear misrepresentation. The seller got much more than fair value due to either a bad scan or photo edit. I would try ebay again and demand a better outcome and supervisor. They could force the seller to take it back. I had sold an item that was a skimpy bathing suit. No returns. A girl got it an said it doesnt fit and ebay gave her the money back and pressured the hell out of me first to accept a return .

[packs]

Never mind.

[Leon]

Edited

[gunboat82]

To each his own, but my rule of thumb for selling is that the picture, title, and description all have to line up. If there's any doubt, I'd offer the buyer a refund, no questions asked, and eat the shipping.

My stance on that doesn't change just because the buyer is placing more stock in the picture than the write-up, or because of an inadvertent scanner error. If the discrepancy might've induced the buyer to make a purchase he otherwise wouldn't have made, then he should be allowed to back out.

[tedzan]

Sixteen years have transpired since I first started this Joe Doyle survey regarding this "Printer's Mark"......https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87066

My data indicates indicates that 5.96 % of Doyle's are found with this printer's mark.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -^ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Printer's Mark - - - -^ (remnant of "N" in Nat'L)


418 unique samples


T-brand.............Mark.....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........15..........173

Sweet Cap 350.......5...........151

Polar Bear..............4............35

Old Mill..................1.............7

Sovereign 350.........0...........19

Tolstoi....................0.............6

EPDG.....................0.............2
____________________________

Totals.................. 25 ........ 393

25 - Joe Doyle cards with this Printer's Mark...... 25/418 = 5.96 %


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[JollyElm]

Nothing personal against anyone here, but can we stop with the herd mentality, please??? I'm sure there are plenty of people NOT commenting about how obvious this is, because they know the herd will then turn on them.

I even wrote a 'Collectorism' about this very issue:

383. Scantortionist
When a seller has obviously and deceptively photoshopped an image to make a card appear to be in much better shape than it really is, but an apologist jumps in to argue, “No, it’s just because of the scanner settings used.”


Let's do a little common sense Occam's Razoring on it.

What do you think is more likely?

1. A scanner setting just happened to accidentally remove the one specific thing that turns the card into a hugely valuable one.

2. A seller purposefully removed the one specific thing to turn the card into a hugely valuable one.


Since he didn't mention it being the 'missing dot' variation in the listing, he ensures he has plausible deniability. And, as for Photoshop, there is something called the 'clone tool' that would literally take a total of 2 seconds to remove the dot and match the now-empty space flawlessly to the background. Simplest thing in the world.


Edited to add:

As such...

doylenodotfake.jpg

(Literally took closer to one second than two to disappear the dot.)

[wazoo]

One time I purchased a George Browne t206 with a Piedmont “50” subjects instead of “150.” Thought I was on to something. Turns out the “1” didn’t show up on the scan. It happens.

[danmckee]

Very interesting read folks! I appreciate all of the insights. Bottom line is the seller NEVER responded to my question through ebay and ebay has finalized their decision by telling me I could relist it on their site. Problem with that is I would relist it showing both dots and would maybe get $45 of my $215 back.

Sadly no response from seller so I do not recommend him and will be leaving him bad feedback which I am sure he will be able to have removed for no good reason.

Thanks again everyone......

Dan Mckee

[Kidnapped18]

Scanners often remove dots from cards. Can't say whether this was intentional or not. Since it was not advertised as missing the dot it looks like you made a miscalculation and will just have to keep the card as is or eat whatever loss you may have upon reselling it if it sells for lower than what you paid. As Leon tells us Caveat Emptor.

[RCFire82]

If it was purposefully done, that just reinforces my skepticism of partaking in "vintage breaks." (Imho)
Here's my print anomaly to fill in for the Nat'l version.

[Wildfireschulte]

The seller currently has a Marquard portrait listed - scan shows no dot after the Y

[RCFire82]

The plot thickens...

[jayshum]

I'm a little confused. Dan, you say it cost you $215 but the link you provided in the original post takes me to a listing with a price of $367.99 and has the authentication guarantee indicated.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I'm a little confused. Dan, you say it cost you $215 but the link you provided in the original post takes me to a listing with a price of $367.99 and has the authentication guarantee indicated.

He accepted "Best Offer"

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Wildfireschulte

The seller currently has a Marquard portrait listed - scan shows no dot after the Y

The RARE Marquard! I am buying!

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

Scanners often remove dots from cards. Can't say whether this was intentional or not. Since it was not advertised as missing the dot it looks like you made a miscalculation and will just have to keep the card as is or eat whatever loss you may have upon reselling it if it sells for lower than what you paid. As Leon tells us Caveat Emptor.

How did I make a "Miscalculation" ?

I clearly bought a card that is missing the dot after the "Y"

Not seeing any miscalculation there at all.......

[Leon]

He didn't make a miscalculation. He bought something that was significantly not as advertised (SNAD). Sort of the opposite of what you said, but carry on.

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

Scanners often remove dots from cards. Can't say whether this was intentional or not. Since it was not advertised as missing the dot it looks like you made a miscalculation and will just have to keep the card as is or eat whatever loss you may have upon reselling it if it sells for lower than what you paid. As Leon tells us Caveat Emptor.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by danmckee

He accepted "Best Offer"

Thanks for clarifying. I guess eBay changed how they show sold listings that had accepted offers. I am used to seeing them with the listed price crossed out and something like "Best offer accepted" shown even if the offer price wasn't.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Leon

He didn't make a miscalculation. He bought something that was significantly not as advertised (SNAD). Sort of the opposite of what you said, but carry on.

TY Leon! I appreciate the clarification.

WOW! Less than 15 minutes my Neutral Feedback was removed so that seller is on top of this situation and at this point, I don't think he is being very honest.

NOT COOL by him.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Leon

He didn't make a miscalculation. He bought something that was significantly not as advertised (SNAD). Sort of the opposite of what you said, but carry on.

A little while back I miscalculated my SNAD and ended up in the hospital for almost a week.

Brian (I personally think a little dot stealing T206 gremlin mischieviously snatched it from the scan. No matter what the case, sorry Dan)

[Kidnapped18]

This is what Dan posted:
"Now he didn't advertise it as missing the Dot so I am guessing he didn't doctor the scan but how else could this have happened? You can clearly see the Dot after the N."

It was clearly a miscalculation since there was no dot...If there was any doubt then a question to the seller about whether dot or no dot was present and asking for additional scans before purchase would have made more sense.

I agree that if the seller was on the up and up he would have accepted a return since the item was not what you thought it was.

Originally Posted by danmckee

TY Leon! I appreciate the clarification.

WOW! Less than 15 minutes my Neutral Feedback was removed so that seller is on top of this situation and at this point, I don't think he is being very honest.

NOT COOL by him.

[Leon]

Once again, to make clear, I am not saying the seller did anything or not. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. This isn't about why, or how, it happened. It is only not as advertised, accidentally or not.
A simple return from the seller would be appropriate, imo (but my opinion doesn't count).

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

This is what Dan posted:
"Now he didn't advertise it as missing the Dot so I am guessing he didn't doctor the scan but how else could this have happened? You can clearly see the Dot after the N."

It was clearly a miscalculation since there was no dot...If there was any doubt then a question to the seller about whether dot or no dot was present and asking for additional scans before purchase would have made more sense.

I agree that if the seller was on the up and up he would have accepted a return since the item was not what you thought it was.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I would argue the seller knew exactly what he was doing, even before we found out about the refusal on a return and the expunging of the feedback.

Why else would you list it with the exorbitant "buy-it-now" price he had on it unless you were trying to rope in someone who knew the card's APPARENT value. It's a $30 - $40 card otherwise at best.