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  #1  
Old 10-05-2007, 12:16 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: leon

Not wanting to hijack the other thread I was thinking about the really tough E cards. The normal E cards are fun and compared to T cards fairly scarce...but there are some in this group that are really rare. How would you put these in order of scarcity? I will give my thoughts later. This one is a bit tougher to put in order than the ones in the other thread...

E120.. American Caramel
E121..American Caramel
E122.. American Caramel
E123.. Curtis Ireland (where the heck did this # come from)
E125.. American Caramel
E126.. American
E135..Collins McCarthy
E136.. Home Run Kisses
E145.. var. Cracker Jacks
E210.. York Caramels
E220..National Caramel
E222.. A. W. H.
E222.. A. W. A.
E223.. G & B Chewing Gum
E224.. Texas Tommy (-1 & -2)
E253.. Oxford Confectionery
E254/270.. var.Colgan's Chips (3 sets)
E271.. Darby Chocolates
E285.. Rittenhouse Candy
E286.. Ju Ju Drums
E300..Plows


edited out E136/E137 Zeenuts as there are different difficulty levels between the years and that is a disucssion in, and of, itself...

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  #2  
Old 10-05-2007, 12:21 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: Richard

I am not familiar enough with a lot of these issues to rank them, but if you or anyone could merge the two lists for an overall ranking I think a lot would find it interesting.

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  #3  
Old 10-05-2007, 12:23 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: Bob

No card is tougher than the 1911 Zeenut Bohen IMHO. I believe the only one known in existence is a "die cut looking" one which was offered for sale a few years ago. The set is considered complete without it.

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  #4  
Old 10-05-2007, 12:26 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: Richard

Bob - I think there are dozens of cards found in some of the above sets which are unique.

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  #5  
Old 10-05-2007, 12:38 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: leon

I would agree as that particular card from the set is possibly the toughest from an E set...However, this is a lesson on the sets' toughness, not players....Though this AWA could be considered a variation they just don't get more tough than uniquely known....(again, I have an idea on the sets but wanted to see if anyone else would try first)...I will post my thoughts on the sets later...and it will be debatable..that's for sure. The only known AWA card...



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  #6  
Old 10-05-2007, 01:46 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: boxingcardman

Not including the variations. Bob is right in the sense that in Zeenuts there is wide variability between the years. Some years are akin to 1 of 1 cards, while others are commonly found. I think you have to break down the Zeenuts by years to arrive at a result that makes any sense, and perhaps again within some years to account for certain very rare individual cards (Bohen, Claxton, Arbuckle, Crawford come to mind readily). Fortunately, I'm not the guy to do it. Maybe Mark M if he's reading?

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  #7  
Old 10-05-2007, 01:54 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: leon

For this discussion lets take out Zeenuts except for the Home Run Kisses...since they are a different design I say lets leave them.....I will amend my first post to make the correction...

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  #8  
Old 10-05-2007, 02:14 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: Glen V

Here's my view...

Toughest

E222 AWA
E221 Team Cards
E222 AWH
E271 Darby
E223 G&B

Tough

E224 Texas Tommy
E125 American Caramel
E300 Plows
E286 Ju Ju Drums
E123 Curtis Ireland

Then, everything else

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  #9  
Old 10-05-2007, 02:20 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: leon

I knew I could count on you . Now where is Dan M. and Dan S...?? The only thing I would possibly think different is the E286's. I have seen more of most of the others on your "tough" list than those....You pretty much nailed it on the toughest ones...but I will give my full thoughts later...

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  #10  
Old 10-05-2007, 03:13 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: Glen V

I've heard that Fritsch has a large group of E286s. Also, a few years ago a major auction house had a lot of 18(?) Ju-Ju Drums. (I was the under-bidder, and still kick myself for not bidding more - they went for under $200 each.) Between those and others that must be out there, I figured they weren't quite rare enough for the toughest catagory. Then again, without a true count, who knows?

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  #11  
Old 10-05-2007, 03:27 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: JimB

Isn't Mastro supposed to be auctioning off Fritsch's collection? I know there has been a lot of unopened material and vending lots sold in the past few auctions, but I am wondering when the tough vintage stuff is coming.. How about those Doyle (NY Natl's)
JimB

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  #12  
Old 10-05-2007, 03:29 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: Richard

What is the number of known examples for each card in these two catagories?

Toughest: maybe 1 or 2 of each player known?
Tough: maybe 2-5 of each player known?


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  #13  
Old 10-05-2007, 07:00 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: Wesley

These seem to be the toughest:


E223 G & B
E271 Darby
E222 AWH
E221 Bishop
E300 Plows
E125 Die Cuts
E224 Texas Tommy



I see these quite often on ebay:

E145 Cracker Jack
E254 Colgan
E121 American Caramel
E210 York

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  #14  
Old 10-05-2007, 07:46 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

My take...

Toughest

E221
E222
E271
E223
E286
E224
E254 (208 back)
E125
E123
E300
E270 Tin Tops
E210 Type 2
E270 Red Borders
E136 Home Run Kisses
E285
E126
E121 (80-ends eighty)
E122
E220
E210 Type 1
E135
E145-1 (1914)
E254
E121 (80-ends eighty of the)
E121 (120)
E120
E145-2 (1915)

Easiest

Again, just my experience
-Rhett

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  #15  
Old 10-05-2007, 08:15 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: leon

and my guess is:

most common to most scarce (just one person's opinion)

E121..American Caramel
E120.. American Caramel
E145.. var. Cracker Jacks
E254 Colgans
E210.. York Caramels
E122.. American Caramel
E135..Collins McCarthy
E220..National Caramel
E253.. Oxford Confectionery
E285.. Rittenhouse Candy
E126.. American Caramel
E270.. Red borders
E136.. Home Run Kisses
E123.. Curtis Ireland (where the heck did this # come from)
E125.. American Caramel
E270.. Tin tops
E286.. Ju Ju Drums
E224.. Texas Tommy type 1
E300..Plows Candy
E224.. Texas Tommy type 2
E223.. G & B Chewing Gum
E271.. Darby Chocolates
E222..A.W.H. Caramel
E221..Bishops Team card
E222.. A. W. A. Caramel


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  #16  
Old 10-05-2007, 10:06 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: dstudeba

I am loathe to get into these conversations, however I would argue that the G & B gum issue is the toughest. There are 60+ examples of it and I only recall 1 or 2 offered in the past 2-3 years from the major auction houses. I sold one on eBay that was trimmed, other than that there have been none on eBay recently. e222 and e221s are tough also, but have been on eBay (as you and I both know ) and in major auctions about as much as the G&Bs. But there are only 12 cards in the e222 set and 5 in the e221 set.

Therefore my advice if it wasn't clear is to dump your e221 and e222s....

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  #17  
Old 10-06-2007, 06:38 AM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: leon

Yes, both of my E221's came from ebay but other than those I have probably seen 3-4 for sale in my 10-11 yrs of addiction. I have probably seen about 10 AWH's for sale, including 4 in one lot on ebay, that David L. picked up...as you know. So I have seen more of the G and B's (maybe 15-20) than those other 2 series. Are you trying for a smoke screen here ? A lot of the PCL issues are really tough...Unfortunately I don't see me dumping any of these soon.

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  #18  
Old 10-06-2007, 08:51 AM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: George

How about the Orange Borders? For some reason, they do not have an "E number," but they are of the same ilk. They were cut from candy boxes, and include the Tigers and Pirates teams from 1909. I continuously look for them on EBay, but have never found one there. I rarely see one in an auction catalog.

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  #19  
Old 10-06-2007, 09:22 AM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: leon

Orange borders are tough but I was only doing ACC/SCB catalogued cards with numbers....I think a seperate thread is in order for a lot of the other ones ie... Orange Border, J=K Candy, Allstar Candy, Big Eater etc.....A lot of them are really tough too. I will try to do a 2nd thread, later, pertaining to them....or if someone else wants to that would be fine. I would start out by using the list from our friends at OldCardboard in their Candy/Caramel card section (unc.)...and add to if it need be.....Good question though....best regards

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Old 10-06-2007, 09:46 AM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: Richard

Leon - care to take a shot at merging the two lists?

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  #21  
Old 10-06-2007, 09:50 AM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: leon

That will really make it interesting (merge the two) and I will do it later when I have a little more time. I will also try to give you my "guesstimates" on the population of the scarce cards. I don't think I want to try to give a population estimate of the more common ones ie....E120, E121, E145 etc.....there would be many thousands I would think....regards

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  #22  
Old 10-06-2007, 10:04 AM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: Rob

Leon, how about splitting up E145 between 1914s and 1915s? Or do you think they'd fall right after each other anyway?

Rob

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  #23  
Old 10-06-2007, 10:08 AM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: leon

1914 Cracker Jacks are seen less often than 1915, from my experience....plus, as we know they (1914) almost always came in the boxes as opposed to being able to send in for the 1915's through the mail....I will break them out on the next guess....I see Rhys broke out his sets a little more than I did....I would politely disagree that the 1915 Cracker Jacks are more common than E121...but both are relatively easy compared to many of the other sets.

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  #24  
Old 10-06-2007, 10:16 AM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: Wesley

I like the way the Old Cardboard website distinguishes between traditional tobacco size caramels E90-107 and the cards discussed in this thread:

E90-E107 are characterized as E1

E120-E300, etc are characterized as E2

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  #25  
Old 10-06-2007, 10:33 AM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: dstudeba

Leon -

I don't disagree with your stements, I think the difference is between set collecting and type collecting. I would probably agree that more G&Bs have been up for sale over the last 5 years than e222 or e221s. However I couldn't imagine trying to complete the G&B set. I think there is a board member who is close which is just astonishing to me.

Dan McKee could speak about the Orange Borders, but in my experience they can be found on eBay with some regularity.

Baseball Bats and W555s should also be added to the list.

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Old 10-06-2007, 12:55 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Leon, it was Rhett not Rhys (but you aren't the first to make the mistake). I don't disagree that E121's as a whole are more common than 1915 Cracker Jacks, but if you break them up into the "Series of 80" and "Series of 120" from my experience the 1915's are slightly more common to equal than either one of those taken individually. But to be honest, on the "more common" side of the list, many of those sets are all seen frequently and it is tough to really determine which is the easiest.
-Rhett

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  #27  
Old 10-06-2007, 01:03 PM
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Default The really tough candy cards

Posted By: leon

Sorry about that. Have you ever made a mistake so often it becomes almost the norm? I do the same thing with Tony Andrea and Tony Arnold. I always get them mixed up too...for no apparent reason except the name. Breaking out the E121 by series I would agree with you...but like you said too, these are all fairly common relative to the other issues we are speaking of. My first list was cut and pasted from the OldCardboard site and I decided to leave the easier ones in here....

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