The Value of the 8.5 Grade--One of My Largest Trades Ever

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Exactly. There would be a zero upside and a horrendous downside incentive-wise for any grading company to proactively buy back doctored cards and acknowledge they messed up - especially in times like this when a company president recently writes an article acknowledging we are in a "market slowdown" but assures his readers we are not in a "market paralysis".

It's hard to imagine PSA could afford to buy back all doctored cards in its holders. That combined with their lack of incentive to do so even it was affordable leads me to believe that most of those cards will remain in PSA holders, but in time will require a cross-over certification to retain their value. Yes, I understand that there are a number of registry owners who care only what's on the slab (as opposed to what's in the slab). And for a time they will continue to largely prop up the high-grade slabbed market. But what about the next generation of collectors, collectors who at present have little invested in such slabbed cards and who have little economic incentive to keep their heads in the sand about the risk that a substantial number of these cards are doctored.

There have been a number of threads on this board over the years about the numbers of slabbed high-grade prewar cards that are doctored. My opinion, at least for certain issues (e.g., T206s) is that a substantial percentage, quite possibly the majority, of 8s and higher have been doctored in some way. My collecting days go back to the 1960s and never in those times do a recall such a quantity of nrmt/mt and mt cards, and such a dearth of oversized cards. If I am anything close to correct about this, then I simply don't see how that day of reckoning can be put off forever. Think about it. All it would take is for one collector with a significant number of such high grade slabbed prewar cards to be willing (or feel the need) to have them examined by an IMPARTIAL third party authenticator. And if that was done and a significant number come back doctored, in effect the market value for slabbed cards of those issues that either lack provenance or "impartial third party" re certification will be decimated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In many aspects of life wishful thinking often trumps reason. So too with some collectors.

[Davalillo]

The above commets by Benjulmag are some of the most ridiculous I have seen in my life.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

The above commets by Benjulmag are some of the most ridiculous I have seen in my life.

I am sure that eventually folks will remember to put their names by their posts or just put it in your signature and never worry about it. Jim- would you like me to do that for you, since I know your techy skills aren't that of an IT guy? You are welcome to say almost anything you want to, your name just needs to be by it...lmk and I will put it there for you....or you would need to edit out your comments. Corey has his name out there as I do....and many others..nothing personal......regards

[Davalillo]

Sorry did not know-you can use my name..

[Peter_Spaeth]

A PSA 8 from the Harris Collection, auctioned by REA with Rob expressing his opinion that the card was trimmed.

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2009/248.html

[shimozukawa]

.

[bbeck]

Jim-I am curious, who sets the market value? If you own a PSA 8 or PSA 9 T206 (common) that is a 1/1 and another 1/1 sells for $10,000 in a major auction, is that considered the market value if yours is deemed trimmed on a bump atttempt, or an aberration? When my 1966 Rose came back trimmed the first thought that crossed my mind was how many trimmed cards reside in my own collection and I have many sets on the registry. I am a pro PSA guy although I own SGC cards also. I was point blank told by a PSA rep after the Rose episode, "when you crack out a card it is a big risk". The risk should be pertaining to the grade, not card doctoring. The holder is supposed to remove the doctoring risk, we are paying for peace of mind. I have to believe that cards in your collection as well as mine have been tampered with. I keep tab on many ebay sellers who I stay away from because I have a gut feeling regarding their cards. The pre-war cards I really cherish are the ones I purchased during my infancy of collecting back in the mid to late 70's when I was a kid. They are clean and untampered, some I have graded and some I do not have the heart to entomb. I am a realist regarding my collection, I have to have trimmed cards that reside in holders. I am still pro PSA but I would be fooling myself to believe otherwise, even if every card I own was submitted for a bump review. -Bob Beck

[shimozukawa]

.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by bbeck

Jim-I am curious, who sets the market value? If you own a PSA 8 or PSA 9 T206 (common) that is a 1/1 and another 1/1 sells for $10,000 in a major auction, is that considered the market value if yours is deemed trimmed on a bump atttempt, or an aberration? When my 1966 Rose came back trimmed the first thought that crossed my mind was how many trimmed cards reside in my own collection and I have many sets on the registry. I am a pro PSA guy although I own SGC cards also. I was point blank told by a PSA rep after the Rose episode, "when you crack out a card it is a big risk". The risk should be pertaining to the grade, not card doctoring. The holder is supposed to remove the doctoring risk, we are paying for peace of mind. I have to believe that cards in your collection as well as mine have been tampered with. I keep tab on many ebay sellers who I stay away from because I have a gut feeling regarding their cards. The pre-war cards I really cherish are the ones I purchased during my infancy of collecting back in the mid to late 70's when I was a kid. They are clean and untampered, some I have graded and some I do not have the heart to entomb. I am a realist regarding my collection, I have to have trimmed cards that reside in holders. I am still pro PSA but I would be fooling myself to believe otherwise, even if every card I own was submitted for a bump review. -Bob Beck

This is a great post !!

Sincerely, Clayton

[Leon]

Originally Posted by shimozukawa

Leon, I think Jim has his name on his ID tag. At least, it's there now. I am pretty sure it was there on his older posts, too.

It wasn't there. I put it there for him. Had it been there I wouldn't have asked, though infrequently I could miss a name....I guess....

[shimozukawa]

.

[botn]

I know this board is very supportive of SGC but as someone who breaks out thousands of SGC and PSA graded cards each year I can tell you the percentages of cards which do not grade again is pretty close to equal. Even if you have a great eye for detecting alterations sometimes you do not know a card is really altered until it gets rejected upon resubmission.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

The above commets by Benjulmag are some of the most ridiculous I have seen in my life.

Maybe so. But at least it can be said I'm making them with no economic stake in whether I am right or wrong. The only high grade PSA's I own are N28's and they have an impeccable provenance. By your own admission you have 20,000 high-grade slabbed PSA cards. In addition, I have the perspective of knowing first hand what existed many years ago before there was an economic incentive to doctor. I believe there is a sound basis to believe a significant percentage of high-grade PSA's of certain issues are doctored. And if in fact that is the case, I believe the wishful thinking is believing that some day the s@@@ will not hit the fan.

As to the insightful comments by shimozukawa, I can forsee a day when there will come into being a company whose sole purpose will be to re-certify grades by PSA and SGC. Market forces will compel the creation of such a company because its certifcation will be the best way for a slabbed card to retain its value, especially a card that did not receive the half-grade bump up (signaling that PSA was not willing to reconfirm that the card was not doctored). After all, if you're considering buying one of two PSA 8's of the same card, wouldn't you be willing be to pay more for the card (all other things being equal in regard to centering, registration, etc.) that comes with additional credible certification that the card has not been doctored. Not being a grading company in the sense of providing any other service other than opining whether PSA or SGC got it right in regard to doctoring, such a company will have considerably less economic incentive than PSA or SGC to be anything but impartial. And that is the key -- getting an opinion from someone who derives no economic benefit from what he is opining. That stands in contrast to the grading companies. PSA will have an economic incentive to confirm a card in its holder has not been doctored because that way they will not have to buy back the card. Likewise, one can credibly argue that SGC will have an economic incentive when reviewing PSA slabbed cards to want to find doctoring.

[Davalillo]

That a majority or even a substantial minority of psa or sgc graded cards that have been altered is a figment of your imagination and perhaps a few more people with active imaginations here. Apparently it is based solely on that you didn't see many high grade vintage cards when you were younger. Well there aren't many--that's why they are worth so much. I also find it near impossible to believe that someone would pay extra to have an independent review of a psa or sgc graded card.

As to whether if you break out a card to resubmit and it come back altered, you might have a tough time convincing psa that it is the same card. If a grading company reviews a slabbed card in the slab and considers it altered, I think its a negotiation. I had a T206 Evers Portrait that upon review by the grading company was deemed as trimmed and the company gave me back my full value. Of course I am a pretty good customer.

[shimozukawa]

.

[barrysloate]

Jim- I know you are one of the biggest PSA collectors in the hobby, and I do have a lot of respect for you, but I'm not sure the statements by Corey and others are such a figment. I never dealt in as many high grade cards as some of the bigger dealers, but in the years I conducted auctions I handled my share. And I have to say what I saw all too often was quite alarming. I think the quality control of the grading companies could be a lot better. And I'll leave it at that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am not smart enough to follow shimozukowa's math, but I think it may not take into account that people will resubmt doctored cards of high value again and again until they get slabbed. Does anyone have a copy of REA's email, I think it may have been 2006, concerning auction house practices of "working on" cards before submitting, that might be interesting to re-read in this context.

[benjulmag]

When you have the largest third party grading company turning a blind eye on re submissions to bump downs, the entire concept of third party grading has failed, and IMO in time the market will reflect that. I will not consider buying a high-grade slabbed card without either knowing the provenance or seeking another opinion the card has been recently re examined and confirmed not to be doctored. I do this not to give myself extra work, but rather because I believe it is prudent to do so. If I had a stack of PSA 8 T206's known to have been slabbed in the early days of grading that I was looking to sell, and I knew I could get a letter from an individual/entity respected in the hobby opining that the cards, upon re examination, have not been doctored, I believe that stack of cards would fetch a higher price with such a letter than without. IF that is correct, then the market forces are in play for the creation of such a service.

EDITED to add that I'm talking here not about a bump down from an 8 to a 7.5, where the loss of value would not necessarily be significant. I'm referring instead to a bump down from an 8 to an A, where the value of the A would be a small fraction of the 8. Unless a prospective purchaser truly felt the chances of the 8 being altered is very small, the weighted value of the card after the perceived risk of alteration is taken into account would be materially less than the card valued as an 8. Under such a scenario, it would be prudent for the prospective purchaser to demand some new corroboration the card is unaltered. And if the seller refused to obtain it, he would be at a competitive disadvantage to another seller of the same card who was willing to provide such a corroboration.

[Leon]

Well, so far no one has been maimed or harmed physically so I think we are off to a good start in this debate. On the high grade card / trimming debate, I too think a lot are tainted, and I won't try to quantify except to say maybe more than 10%, of highly graded (8s and up) cards probably have issues. That is just a seat of the pants feel and a low estimate on my part. Again, just from my bit of experience in the hobby. As for the govt. shutting down a company that would potentially grade the graders....nah, as long as they don't break a law they could do it. It's been done for years in the coin hobby already...CAC-

http://www.caccoin.com/

KNOWING THE GRADE ISN’T ALWAYS ENOUGH.

SETTING THE STANDARD FOR QUALITY.

A LITTLE STICKER MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE.

Due to today’s selective collector/dealer, an ever increasing number of certified coins on the market are considered low end for their grade. CAC holds coins to a higher standard so you can be confident in the value of yours. We verify previously graded coins and award our sticker only to those coins that meet the standard for today’s sophisticated buyer

WHAT THE CAC STICKER MEANS:

• Verified. Your coin has been verified as meeting the standard for strict quality within its grade.

• Guaranteed. CAC stands behind our verification by making markets in most actively traded coins.

THE CAC STICKER IS BACKED BY EXPERIENCE.

CAC was founded by leading members of the numismatic community, including John Albanese, a respected authority on coin grading and the rare coin market.

[barrysloate]

In theory, third party grading and authenticating is a wonderful thing. If it works right it provides a tremendous level of confidence to buyers and sellers alike. But in the real world it desperately needs an overhaul.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

As to whether if you break out a card to resubmit and it come back altered, you might have a tough time convincing psa that it is the same card.

That is the Catch 22. In the holder both SGC and PSA will almost always stand behind the grade. The more expensive the card the less likely they are to consider a buy back. Ultimately a buy back is going to be determined by one's stature in the hobby or likelihood to file suit. And I doubt anyone is filing suit.

If one breaks out the card, which in most cases is really the only way to prove a card is altered, they void the guaranty and most certainly the TPG would have to disclaim any liability in having initially assigned a grade. That is why they can offer that fabulous guaranty--they rarely have to use it.

It is a good thing that most collectors do not want to know if their SGC and PSA graded cards are unaltered. It would change the landscape of the hobby if collectors actually considered it.

[bbeck]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

That a majority or even a substantial minority of psa or sgc graded cards that have been altered is a figment of your imagination and perhaps a few more people with active imaginations here. Apparently it is based solely on that you didn't see many high grade vintage cards when you were younger. Well there aren't many--that's why they are worth so much. I also find it near impossible to believe that someone would pay extra to have an independent review of a psa or sgc graded card.

As to whether if you break out a card to resubmit and it come back altered, you might have a tough time convincing psa that it is the same card. If a grading company reviews a slabbed card in the slab and considers it altered, I think its a negotiation. I had a T206 Evers Portrait that upon review by the grading company was deemed as trimmed and the company gave me back my full value. Of course I am a pretty good customer.

I agree 100% that PSA would have major difficulties believing customers stating their resubmitted cards were once in high grade holders and are now doctored (Although they did believe me). Besides yourself, I may be one of the most pro PSA supporters on this board. I have had many positive experiences with PSA and think the company has one of the most accessible Presidents you will ever find. He does a good job in a very difficult business. I also believe their are many shady characters in this business who are very good at what they do. I think I have a handle on some but do not know them all. I have collected since 1975 and owned my own store since 1991. The Rose card opened my eyes and I knew who I purchased it from. It was a small monetary hit but nevertheless a hit and a disappointment. I have followed the buying patterns of a few ebay dealers who deal in low pop or consistently high end cards. I will not buy from them on gut feeling. Others, I feel comfortable with. The problem is, who knows how many times these cards have changed hands or what auction houses have them in their current offering. I do not think I have an active imagination, just a realist. I am fortunate that I have submitted a fair amount of my own material. The rest I put my faith in the grading company. I think Barry's comments are right on the nose.

[E93]

We seem to be re-hashing old conversations here, which is fine. It is probably healthy to discuss them periodically.

One issue that has not come up yet in this round is that it is not ONLY high grade cards that are altered. It is any card that the doctor finds it worth his/her time to doctor. In other words, if there is financial incentive to work a PSA 3 card like a T206 Cobb into a PSA 4, doctors will do it. If one only looks carefully at PSA 8s, people are going to miss a big part of the altered card community. It is about financial incentive and nothing else. If a doctor can take a light wrinkle out of a '33 Goudey Ruth and it becomes a 5 rather than a 3, there is a big payoff.

Some people enjoy singling out high-grade cards in this discussion, but the truth is that it happens on all levels.
JimB

[Peter_Spaeth]

What JimB says is undoubtedly true, but in my opinion trimming -- which probably most of us consider the most offensive type of alteration -- probably affects higher grade cards more than low to medium.

[barrysloate]

Jim is right that mid-grade cards are altered too, but it probably entails removing a crease or something like that. If a card is trimmed, it surely will end up with square corners, hence a high grade.

Wherever there is easy money to be made there will be someone out there figuring out the best way to do it. If spooning a crease can turn a 3 into a 4, there's plenty of incentive to do it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What JimB says is undoubtedly true, but in my opinion trimming -- which probably most of us consider the most offensive type of alteration -- probably affects higher grade cards more than low to medium.

I absolutely agree with this....no doubt some lesser graded cards are altered but not the extent of the more highly graded ones. I worry very little about my 1's-3's.....though understand they could have had one of their many creases removed or one of their super rounded corners trimmed at one time....I am very comfortable the way I collect just as I hope everyone else is too. I think Corey made a good point about provenance too.

How many of the people defending high grade cards would be comfortable owning a mini-T206 from the Harris collection, in a high grade holder?

[calvindog]

Fact: there are a ton of graded cards which have been trimmed, the majority in high grades.

And hearing that Jim seems to get special treatment from PSA I shudder to ask: does anyone think it possible that PSA grader/graders have ever taken a bribe?

[Davalillo]

I would reiterate my opinion that the view that a substantial percentage of pre-war cards graded psa 8 or sgc 88 have been altered is a view that is limited to a few people on this board and buy in large they don't buy high end graded cards. So for the sake of argument who cares what they think when it comes to the market. Furthermore, the idea that that an independent third party grader needs to come in and authenticate the graded cards is crazy because the people who are buying the high end graded cards don't see it as a problem.

I would not pay more for a card that is authenticated by a third party and I doubt if anyone else who is truly buying cards would either. I really don't want to know how many of my 30,000 cards are altered in some way. I believe not many. I remember sending an e-mail a couple of years ago to a huge buyer of vintage 8s and 9s and asking him if he was concerned. He relied that he did not care if the cards that were 8s or 9s were altered or not and that PSA gets it right the vast majority of the time and if there were some altered cards in psa 8 or 9 holders big deal.

I also am of the belief that if one includes all types of alteration, that low-to-mid grade cards have a higher percentage altered than high grade. Although as I remember in the past Greg told me I was wrong here so if he says I am perhaps I am?

Lastly, and forgive me Leon if I am misrepresenting a private conversation, but at the National Leon asked me why don't you come back to net 54--the board needs a little life and you could provide it. I replied that I was sick of the arguments. Leon said it was a whole different board and everybody got along. So I'm back and this is fine. I know I bring a different point of view than most people on this board who have hated graded cards from day one but thats the way I collect and I love it. And I agree with Leon who says in effect "its all good".

[Davalillo]

JUeff,

I think you're wrong but you are right about so many things on your radio show I will let this slide.

What I can't let slide is your comment I get special treatment from PSA--as you know they give different rates to all submitters depending on volume and to resubmitters as well. If you are referring to the Evers card that was with SGC not PSA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Uh, Jim, a couple of years back weren't you leading the charge against altered cards, calling on auction houses to state their policies, demanding that grading companies improve their quality control, stating that you would not buy an expensive card without Kevin Saucier's independent assessment, and so forth? I am sure I can find some of your old posts in that regard. Why the change of mind?

E.g.:

07-23-2007, 08:02 PM
Archive
Administrator Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,918

If you could improve the hobby, what would you do

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted By: JimCrandell
1)Force the large grading companies to improve their standards.
2)For those caught restoring or trimming cards mandatory jail time.
3)Force the auction houses to disclose whether they have altered a card before it is up for auction.
4)If dealers knowingly sell altered cards, they are banned from the hobby.

[Davalillo]

Peter,

Absolutely and I believe all those things today:

1)Auction houses should state their policies--still firmly believe this.
2)Grading cos should improve their quality control--always room for improvement and I believe that psa and sgc have become more consistent over this period
3)Would not buy expensive card without Kevin Saucier seeing it first--yes--this still applies--there are altered cards in holders just nowhere near as many as some believe.

Also I still believe the four other points you list--don't you?

Thank you for bringing these up.

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

I would reiterate my opinion that the view that a substantial percentage of pre-war cards graded psa 8 or sgc 88 have been altered is a view that is limited to a few people on this board and buy in large they don't buy high end graded cards. So for the sake of argument who cares what they think when it comes to the market.

This would make a great poll question. My guess would be that far more than a few people on this board think a substantial percentage of pre-war psa 8 and sgc 88's have been altered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jim, I think the difference between us is I believe trimming and other alterations are significantly more widespread than you do, particularly at the higher grades in prewar and in low pop commons. I state this based on personal observation of many cards, limited crossover/crackout experience as well as the experience of others which I assume was accurately reported to me, common sense, and conversations with many knowledgeable people that I might be inclined to discredit singly but that corroborate each other as to who the culprits in the hobby are and the extent of what they have done. What is the basis for your belief?

[Davalillo]

Anthony,

Maybe so--I was not following the board for 18 months. I guess a better point would be is that since net54 is generally an anti-PSA message board, that the percentage of high end psa graded cards that are bought from posters here is very few. So from the standpoint of the market it doesn't really matter what people here think as they don't buy the cards anyway.

Jim

[calvindog]

Jim, I didn't mean to suggest that you have any inappropriate relationship with a grading company, I just was responding to what I thought was your implication about special treatment due to you being a great customer. As to my claim that there is a flood of high-grade trimmed cards in the market, this is based on first-hand knowledge, not speculation. Of course, when I speculate sometimes I'm even right such as the time i claimed years ago that Mastro Auctions was engaging in massive shill bidding and I was shouted down here by every high and mighty idiot on the board.

And yes, you missed my damn show yesterday--and I even talked sports for a couple segments! Every Saturday now from 10 to noon.

[barrysloate]

Jim- did you get a chance to read the book "Mint Condition" by Dave Jamieson? There's a chapter in there where Jamieson and Kevin Saucier spend a day together. The whole book is good, but if you read only a part of it read that chapter. It's quite interesting.

And you made a point worth merit when you related a conversation with a top collector of 8's and 9's. You said he knows some of his cards are altered, but he doesn't care. That says a lot to me about the phenomenon: some collectors just don't care. If the label reads "9" all is well in the world.

[vintagecpa]

Welcome back to the board Jim, lol. Unfortunately, you collect in a universe few of us lower-budget collectors can even comprehend. I know I've only ever owned a handful of psa 7-8 cards, so it would be difficult for me to have an informed conversation with someone that owns 20,000+. It would be interesting to know how many of these cards have been altered in the past, or even how many of them were produced years later (fro joy plate rumor). Perhaps one day, there will be a need for a professional forensic service if the collecting public demands to know the truth. But at the end of the day, it still is just an expensive hobby where people are simply trying to keep a keep a part of their childhood alive.

[Davalillo]

Peter,

Pretty much same as yours. I probably talk to more major dealers and probably smaller to midsize graded dealers than you do--however I know that for a period of time you were on a private chat board that I am not on and they do have some smart people there. However I do talk to many of them privately.

Jim

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jim, for the most part, do you expect dealers who sell you cards to tell you alteration is a huge problem? Edit to add my opinons are not based on anything I learned from that chatboard.

[Davalillo]

Jeff,

Damn!

I will listen in and I will call in for a question. Sounds like I have a better chance of getting through with a politics question than a sportscard question?

You're a smart guy about a lot of things so maybe I'm wrong?? Sometime when you have a few minutes if your busy life permits it we could have a chat.

Barry,

I think my name was used several times in that book so yes I did read it. I think Kevin Saucier walks on water. Am I mistaken that before Kevin was insulted off this board that he said he felt that 5% or maybe 5-10% of vintage high end cards were alterred.....or maybe it was of the total? Exactly--on your other point--it is a nonevent and has had no effect to date on the prices of vintage cards.

Vintagecpa,

You're right its supposed to be a fun hobby and I have gotten tons of enjoyment out of it since I began collecting in 1957 at the age of 4. Its still fun. To me the fun is getting everyu card in a set at at least a psa 8 grade. I also love the players and every cardI look at brings memories.

Jim

[Davalillo]

Peter,

Perhaps--but I was just saying I talk to the same sort of people you do but perhaps more dealers--if that makes my universe of contacts less informed than so be it.

Jim

[botn]

Jim,

In terms of quantity there very well could be more mid grade altered cards than high grade altered cards because of the volume of mid grade cards in population. However I think the percentage of high grade altered cards is much larger than the percentage of mid grade cards. The payoff is much greater, in most instances, in the high grade market. I feel this is not a problem just at PSA but plagues SGC as much. I turn over a lot of material each year so I get to see more than most.

As I stated earlier, the hobby would change materially if collectors really wanted to know if their cards were messed with but as you point out, and has been my experience too, collectors don't really want to know. And that extends to mid grade collectors as well. See no evil...

Therein lies the problem. None of the grading companies need to be accountable. When they slab a bad card nobody is asking them to make it right. Cards are not fiat money and only have value because the next collector believes the same. If PSA or SGC were to go under I think most in the hobby would approach buying in a different manner. In many instances there is too much faith placed on the flip.

Greg

[Davalillo]

Greg,

I trust you are right on your observations about high grade vs mid grade.

I gree with you on your point that collectors don't want to know. I remember when a coLlector who i know by name but have not met King Yao had
Kevin Saucier look at all his most important cards to tell him which were tampered with and which weren't. I don't think he could understand why I did not want to do the same.
I just don't want to know.

Jim

[barrysloate]

Hey Jim- sorry I forgot you were mentioned in the book. I read it last year and I guess I just didn't remember.

[bbeck]

In reality, there may be more high end pre-war PSA/SGC collectors on this board then one might think. Some may choose anonymity. Tough to make blanket assumptions regarding pocketbooks and collections. The longer the thread continues, my statement of being a realist seems to hold water, even with Jim Crandell.-Bob Beck

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

... to tell him which were tampered with and which weren't. I don't think he could understand why I did not want to do the same.
I just don't want to know.

Jim

Jim, if a few of your slabbed cards were found to be tampered with in some way, would PSA pay you "market value" for them? If so, would this encourage you to allow Kevin to look at them?

Rob

[glynparson]

are not the problem. If it were simply a case of trimming the card to make it an 8 they wouldn't be low pop. Often its something more sinister like painitng to remove print, erasing things. then retouching the erasures, rebuilding tears. the problems are vast and far more than just trimming which is a real problem in all cards raw and graded. mid grade through high. lowergrade cards ofen have ink or pen removed or sometimes even glue, there is no grade of card immune to doctoring it just matters more on the high end so that's where the best guys go because thats where the most $ is.

[Davalillo]

Rob,

I assume so but you get back to the point that Greg makes about tyhe willingness to take cards out of the holder......

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glynparson

are not the problem. If it were simply a case of trimming the card to make it an 8 they wouldn't be low pop.

It is not necessarily an easy thing to trim a card and get it past a grading service, so I am not sure this assumption is correct. Certainly there is similar incentive to get a low pop common into an 8 holder as to get a HOF card into one, given the prices they can command.