1907-1910 Weiser Wonder - Walter Johnson PC, new to the hobby

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Love it!

Don't encourage me - along with a sharp wit sometimes comes a sharp tongue. Disentangling the two has been a life-long battle

[barrysloate]

I hear you Scott.

And based on this discussion, I will agree with Rhys, that athough the window is 1907-1910, it would almost certainly be closer to the back end of it, when Johnson had already gained some national prominence.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

And based on this discussion, I will agree with Rhys, that athough the window is 1907-1910, it would almost certainly be closer to the back end of it, when Johnson had already gained some national prominence.

Johnson's national prominence actually dates from the start of his career, practically from his first game with Washington. Some of the early coverage in the national sporting publications is surprising, with many quotes like this one from Wild Bill Donovan following Johnson's debut against the Tigers on August 2, 1907: "If nothing happens to that fellow, he will be a greater pitcher in two years than Mathewson ever dared to be. Mark that prediction." And here's Addie Joss after Johnson's second big league game, a 7-2 win at Cleveland: "That fellow is another Cy Young. I never saw a kid with more than he displayed." Certainly by the time Johnson had thrown three shutouts in four days in his first full year of 1908, anybody following baseball at all would have known all about him. As for the town of Weiser and their local boosters, I believe it would have been more than enough for one of their own to have ascended directly to the major leagues, together with the fulsome praise showered upon him immediately thereupon, to have provided reason enough to create the postcard.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

The only two examples I'm aware of--Leon's and the one from Walter's scrapbooks, came from Weiser. There is another style of this postcard, by the way, sepia with cursive writing at the bottom, that I've seen auctioned recently, perhaps a couple of different examples. I wonder what the postmarks showed on those?

Hank,

The WaJo you pictured in your post appears to be from the White Border Era (1915 - 1930.) It was quite common during the earlier part of this range of dates for postcards to be released which were reprints of earlier Divided Back Era cards, easily distinguished by the white border around the image, and typically of inferior quality.

I would likely be able to dig up a bit more info regarding postmarks if I had an idea of what auction it was featured in. If you would please let me know, I would greatly appreciate it.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Jlighter]

Mr. Perry

Here's one

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=84539

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

Mr. Perry

Here's one

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=84539

Jake,

Many thanks.

At first blush, this makes perfect sense to me:

White Border Era Postcard (1915-1930)
Postmark of 1918





Definitely a different card than the one Leon posted, which I firmly believe was issued between 1907-1910.

The one pictured here in my post (not my card...from the auction link provided by Jake) was issued between 1915-1918, in my humble opinion.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Jake,

Many thanks.

At first blush, this makes perfect sense to me:

White Border Era Postcard (1915-1930)
Postmark of 1918





Definitely a different card than the one Leon posted, which I firmly believe was issued between 1907-1910.

The one pictured here in my post (not my card...from the auction link provided by Jake) was issued between 1915-1918, in my humble opinion.

Best Regards,

Eric

Since the outer limits of your guesses are the dates of the postmarks I would say you have solved half the equation.

[Baseball Rarities]

My understanding is that postcards began to be produced with white borders during the WW1 years in order to cut down on the consumption of ink.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Leon

Since the outer limits of your guesses are the dates of the postmarks I would say you have solved half the equation.

Leon,

If I may be so bold, please allow me to disregard (for a moment) the white bordered postcard and focus solely on the one you originally posted. As it pertains to that example, I believe the outer limits of my guesses to both be reasonably solid dates.

The postmark of November 30, 1910 is clearly the latest date the card could be issued. Additionally, in my estimation, March 1, 1907 is the earliest it could have been issued. The U.S. Postal Service did not relax their regulations regarding the inclusion of correspondence on the back of a postcard until that date...nor were divided back postcards able to be used in the U.S. until then.

So, with the utmost respect for you and everyone here, I propose the following:

I believe that the Walter Johnson postcard you posted was issued between March 1, 1907 and November 30, 1910.

Should I happen to have erred somewhere in my line of thinking thus far, please let me know. I do believe that I have come to a reasonable conclusion; however, do welcome feedback on this.

Additionally, I plan to research the WaJo further, in an effort to narrow this range as much as possible. Along the way, I will be more than happy to share my findings with this board.

Sincerely and Respectfully,

Eric

[martindl]

I have nothing to add re Leons postcard other than it's awesome. Great pick up.

Yes, 1907 was the 'legal' date for divided postcards, but there are documented examples from 1906, so technically 1907 is not a start date.

Re the 'white bordered' postcard, that pc is a real photo postcard and has nothing to do with white bordered pc's, their history, or dating. There are many examples of real photo postcards with borders that pre-date the 'white border' postcard era.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by martindl

I have nothing to add re Leons postcard other than it's awesome. Great pick up.

Yes, 1907 was the 'legal' date for divided postcards, but there are documented examples from 1906, so technically 1907 is not a start date.

Re the 'white bordered' postcard, that pc is a real photo postcard and has nothing to do with white bordered pc's, their history, or dating. There are many examples of real photo postcards with borders that pre-date the 'white border' postcard era.

It's not a real photo postcard, it's a printed one.

[Baseball Rarities]

It is very blurry. Is it a photo of a photo?

Originally Posted by martindl

Re the 'white bordered' postcard, that pc is a real photo postcard and has nothing to do with white bordered pc's, their history, or dating. There are many examples of real photo postcards with borders that pre-date the 'white border' postcard era.

[slidekellyslide]

Fantastic postcard Leon! And no you can NOT start collecting postcards!

I agree with Hank, I think this card was made in 1910 for distribution from Weiser...probably made in a larger city like Boise. Doubtful that a postcard could keep a guy around..this was made as a source of pride in their hometown boy who had made it big in the Bigs.

[teetwoohsix]

Love that postcard Leon, thanks for posting that.

This has been a great read. The 1910 postmark shows it was made 1910 or prior. Now, I don't have much to add but I do have a postcard that has a copyright date of 1910 by one company in New York, and right across from that has a different publishing company name. The postal stamp on the back of the card is dated August 5th, 1911. It is baseball themed, but more of a novelty item. So, I'm wondering if the date of 1908 would make sense? Maybe one year after the copyright date? Just an uneducated guess.

Great thread and awesome postcard, regardless !!

Sincerely, Clayton

[Hankphenom]

Here's a Net54 thread with a link to a photo of a third purple one owned by Dan McKee (of course). So that's at least three of the purple ones. And Mile High had a sepia example at one of the Reading shows some years back, although that could be the same one in the Legendary auction.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=78805

[Leon]

Originally Posted by benchod

So has your opinion changed on the Reccius Wagner?

Nice pickup and great postcard. Congrats

I don't remember my opinion on the Reccius, but unless I missed it, there was never a definitive date put onto the card. Without that it's hard to say. The dating of it is the key, obviously.

Thanks for the kind words on the pick up. Question for those more knowledgeable than myself. Where do you think this would end up price-wise, in a public auction?

[Bicem]

It's a great postcard regardless on the production date. I'd put the over/under at $4k at auction.

[Hankphenom]

5 K, more or less. Would be #1 on the Weiser Wonder registry. Wait a minute: possible rookie card, make that 5-10 K.

[Eric72]

For starters, I agree completely with those who think this is a great card. From what I have been able to determine thus far, it is most likely an extremely scarce issue. I have seen mention of no more than three known examples here, and would not dispute that number at this point in time.

I also thank those who weighed in with comments regarding my opinions on it (along with its newer, white-bordered counterpart) and hope that I am making a positive contribution to this conversation.

I fully understand that pinpointing exactly when it was issued has the potential to be quite important and, as a result, have been doing a bit more research on the topic. Along the way, I have found two things which piqued my interest. If anyone can shed more light on these, I would be most grateful.

First, according to an older listing by Sotheby’s, this card was produced in June of 1907. I am unsure as to how they deduced this and would like to know the board’s opinion here. Granted, this appears to be the same signed version which was later offered in Goodwin's 2010 auction; however, a link to the Sotheby's info appears below.

http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogue...08385.html/98/

Also, I was looking through some old Net54 threads and found this:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=120189&page=2

I have reached out to the person who left post #20 and I am trying to gather more information on the photo posted there. If anyone else might be able to provide insight as to where it came from, it would be greatly appreciate it.

Thanks to all for reading through a long post. I sincerely hope I am not bothering anybody by trying to discover more about this tremendous postcard and attempting to ascertain, with greater certainty, when it was issued.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Bicem]

Wouldn't surprise me if Sotheby's just made up that date based on the copyright date.

Here's the auction link to the cabinet photo Eric...

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=65860

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Wouldn't surprise me if Sotheby's just made up that date based on the copyright date.

Here's the auction link to the cabinet photo Eric...

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=65860

Jeff,

Thanks for the link. I have yet to look into it thoroughly; however, shall enjoy learning more about the cabinet card. Hopefully, along the way, I will be able to glean a bit of info regarding Leon's Postcard. They certainly appear to have been created from the same photograph.

I also appreciate hearing your take on Sotheby's. Unfortunately, given some of the Auction House inaccuracies I have seen discussed here recently, it does seem possible that the date was nothing more than a guess on their part. It is strange that they zeroed in on a particular month without supporting evidence, though. Perhaps I am naive; however, that seems a touch reckless on their part.

In any event, I sincerely thank you and truly appreciate your help.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Wouldn't surprise me if Sotheby's just made up that date based on the copyright date.

Here's the auction link to the cabinet photo Eric...

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=65860

I agree. You can't use an auction house as a base for factual information. Sometimes they do their research and their information is based on fact but often it is just a claim made to make the best possible sale.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

I agree. You can't use an auction house as a base for factual information. Sometimes they do their research and their information is based on fact but often it is just a claim made to make the best possible sale.

Jason,

I understand and completely agree. This seems like a variation of, "buy the card and not the holder." In this case, though, I guess it would be, "buy the item and not the auction house."

Having said that, it did pique my interest to see that they specifically noted the card was produced in June of 1907.

My sincerest thanks and appreciation.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Hankphenom]

Sotheby's DID make up that date of June 1907. That was my consignment, and I certainly didn't give them that date, which I would have known to be almost certainly erroneous. But at least Sotheby's did better than PSA, whose "expert" pegged it as 1901 when 30 seconds of research would have revealed Johnson to have been 13 years old!

[Abravefan11]

As Hank and Scott both said earlier in the thread, Johnson was given the nickname the "Weiser Wonder" after he left Weiser. The image below is from an article in the Idaho Statesman August 11, 1907.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Sotheby's DID make up that date of June 1907. That was my consignment, and I certainly didn't give them that date, which I would have known to be almost certainly erroneous. But at least Sotheby's did better than PSA, whose "expert" pegged it as 1901 when 30 seconds of research would have revealed Johnson to have been 13 years old!

Hank,

Thank you very much for filling in this piece of the Sotheby's/June 1907 puzzle for me...I am certainly convinced they should have done their homework better before making such a claim.

And as for PSA, I am speechless as to why they noted this as being a 1901 issue...I still can't wrap my mind around that one.

In any event, I wholeheartedly thank you, for everything.

I will see what else I am able to discover regarding the postcard in the OP.

Best Regards,

Eric

[martindl]

Originally Posted by Bicem

It's not a real photo postcard, it's a printed one.

The "white bordered" one, correct, not Leon's card? It was the former I referenced with my comment.

Based on the back, that card is almost certainly an AZO card, which is why I said it was a real photo.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by martindl

The "white bordered" one, correct, not Leon's card? It was the former I referenced with my comment.

Based on the back, that card is almost certainly an AZO card, which is why I said it was a real photo.

Pretty sure they are BOTH printed-photo postcards and not real-photos ones, unless the sepia one was made from a grainy photo of the original cabinet or the blue printed postcard.

[slidekellyslide]

I also believe the back on that 1918 Weiser Wonder postcard is an AZO back...whoever made those took a photo of a photo.

[Bicem]

Very possible, maybe it was a one-off by somebody just using a photo of a photo. That would also help explain the much later date.

Wish we could see a close-up of the sepia one to be sure.

[Baseball Rarities]

Can you tell that it is an AZO postcard without being able to see the stamp box?

[slidekellyslide]

Yes...I'm 100% certain it's AZO

Here is a random AZO from my collection.

[Baseball Rarities]

Thanks Dan - really appreciate it.

[Hankphenom]

What about the fact that the sepia postcard, although postmarked 1918, has an undivided back? Does that say anything about its vintage? Or were those still being made long after the advent of the divided backs in 1907?

[Baseball Rarities]

That is actually a divided back - it just does not have a line to separate the two areas. Whenever you see a section labled "correspondence" you can be sure that it is a divided back. Before 1907, the only thing that could be on that side of the postcard was the recipient's address.

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

What about the fact that the sepia postcard, although postmarked 1918, has an undivided back? Does that say anything about its vintage? Or were those still being made long after the advent of the divided backs in 1907?

[Bicem]

Good catch on the AZO back, the front really threw me off as that's one of the poorest photo quality rppc's that I have ever seen.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

What about the fact that the sepia postcard, although postmarked 1918, has an undivided back? Does that say anything about its vintage? Or were those still being made long after the advent of the divided backs in 1907?

You can find AZO's with and without a dividing line...most have the line, but it's not uncommon to find it without...and really lots of the different real photo postcard types have no dividing line at all.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Good catch on the AZO back, the front really threw me off as that's one of the poorest photo quality rppc's that I have ever seen.

Jeff,

I completely agree. This card simply does not present as crisply as any of the RPPC's I have seen, either.

Best Regards,

Eric

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Good catch on the AZO back, the front really threw me off as that's one of the poorest photo quality rppc's that I have ever seen.

Yep..that's why I think someone took a photo of a photo to make the card. I would say with certainty it is not a commercially made postcard.

[Eric72]

As it pertains to the sepia toned version of the WaJo, I am willing to admit the evidence seems overwhelming that it is printed on Azo paper.

I would still like to see a sharper image of that card; however, tip my hat to those who know more than I and applaud their findings.

The, "photograph of a photograph" theory currently makes more sense to me than any other idea floated here thus far, especially considering the truncated wording along the bottom of the image. If this is indeed the case, it brings up an interesting question. Would that issue simply be a reprint? Granted, quite an old reprint, but a reprint nonetheless...interesting to ponder.

One last thought...does anyone know of Azo paper being used for non photo postcards? I do not; however, I am only a collector and not an expert.

I offer my sincere thanks to everyone here for the discussion. I truly appreciate hearing everyone's point of view and learning along the way.

Respectfully,

Eric

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Eric72

One last thought...does anyone know of Azo paper being used for non photo postcards? I do not; however, I am only a collector and not an expert.

This is a good point, I guess it would be possible for someone to ink print on photo paper, maybe to help give the illusion of a photograph. I really wish a board member owned the Sepia card so we could know for sure. I mean, it REALLY looks printed to me.

I once owned a RPPC that was a photo of a photo and it didn't look grainy like the Wajo does. More blur, but no grain.

[Bicem]

from metropostcard.com...

Some publishers printed cards with ink to closely resemble real photo postcards. They usually have a glossy surface that reflects light off the darkly printed areas in a similar manner to the silver deposits on a photograph. Other cards were sometimes printed matte but on a textured paper to look similar to salted photos. A rough paper surface can hide tell tale characteristics of printing ink. These cards were not created to deceive the buyer, for on close examination the differences were often easy to see, but meant to entice those interested in photo cards to find these appealing as well.

H.H. Stratton - These cards were produced with a real photo back but the image is printed with an obvious halftone screen.

[slidekellyslide]

I buy and sell thousands of postcards per year (not baseball)...there are commercially produced real photo postcards..mostly European. I have never once seen a printed postcard with an AZO back. There are photos of photos, photos of paintings, and just about any other thing you can think of printed on real photo paper.

Here is a recent example of a Titanic real photo postcard I sold that was just a photo of a painting...I got 5 of these in a recent estate auction so they were most likely made for commercial purposes, but almost surely were made by a photographer to make a few bucks on the disaster.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/370715700734...84.m1559.l2649

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I buy and sell thousands of postcards per year (not baseball)...there are commercially produced real photo postcards..mostly European. I have never once seen a printed postcard with an AZO back. There are photos of photos, photos of paintings, and just about any other thing you can think of printed on real photo paper.

Here is a recent example of a Titanic real photo postcard I sold that was just a photo of a painting...I got 5 of these in a recent estate auction so they were most likely made for commercial purposes, but almost surely were made by a photographer to make a few bucks on the disaster.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/370715700734...84.m1559.l2649

Dan,

Thank you very much for providing this information and sharing your expertise...both are greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,

Eric

[martindl]

I don't have anything to add really other than to say I too have been dealing with postcards for years and have never seen AZO back non-photo postcards either.

[Bicem]

Me neither, but that doesn't mean it's not possible. I'm not saying it is printed (can't tell for sure w/o seeing a close up of it), it's just that I've never seen a rppc with so much grain.

[slidekellyslide]

Well, it looks like a very touched up photo or an artist's rendition of the "Weiser Wonder", that's why it looks grainy, but I'd bet it's for sure a real photo postcard.

[h2oya311]

So, who won the "white border" Weiser variation postcard on eBay yesterday?? I was hoping to sneak in w/ a $1,250 bid, but I got creamed!

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewi...id=80753014833

[Leon]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

So, who won the "white border" Weiser variation postcard on eBay yesterday?? I was hoping to sneak in w/ a $1,250 bid, but I got creamed!

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewi...id=80753014833

Not me but I was about the 3rd underbidder at $1800ish.....It wasn't a steal. Neat postcard.

[WillowGrove]

I didn't think it was a steal either. For the record, the card has no postmark but it Was sold by a seller who was selling other postcards from Idaho; including some scenes from Weiser.