Old Judge Poster

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Now that it has ended and can be discussed what do y'all think of this poster?

http://tinyurl.com/5xtwpq

-Did it sell cheap? Seems to me it did.
-Has it been seen before?

Looks like Olbermann bought it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt

It personally doesn't look authentic to me. Colors don't seem crisp enough. If it is legit, it was a steal!!.

Matt

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Beautiful. (not) Legit. I was the underbidder

guess ya learn something new every day....

[Archive]

Posted By: MW

The cards are definitely reprints. The poster might be too.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Looks like Olbermann trusts his snipe program enough to go with a one second to go option.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I was safe either way, legit or not. I emailed the seller and they guaranteed it to be legit. It was a no brainer as they are a perfect feedback seller too.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeremy Wagoner

To me, the cards were certainly reprints so I assumed the poster was as well. I could be wrong though.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

The poster wasn't real. How much did it go for? I can't seem to bring up the final price.

I see it now, it went for $1125. I would say an original would be worth 50K-75K easily. Why would this sell for so much?

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark

I had emailed the seller, who had it on consignment. She said that her consignor refused to open up the frame for inspection. I had questions about the cards, and whether the cards/poster were permanently adheared to the matting.

She tried to coax him into opening the frame, but he would not allow it. My feeling was that the poster was a reprint as well as the cards. And even though the seller "guaranteed" it, I did not want to go through the headache of a return.

Does anyone here believe this Poster was real?

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeremy Wagoner

Leon, did the seller also guarantee the cards as authentic?

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

It isn't even the right size. An original would measure around 22" x 16". Phony as a three dollar bill (and I knew of this offering during the week).

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

I guess here's the problem with not "outing" an auction like this...many seem to have seen this and some deemed it fake, but it still ran without comment here.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Folks, there are three known examples of the Burke Ale poster that features Anson and Ewing, and an example went last year in REA for $188,000.

There are roughly the same number of Round Album posters known, and the subject matter is at least half as good (subjective, I know). As such, this poster goes for less than 1% of the REA.

Absolutely impossible...Fake, Fake, Fake, Fake.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I just pulled at the April 9, 1994 Sotheby's catalog, where lot #344 was the same poster. Theirs measured 27 1/2" x 19" in the frame, so if you allow for a couple of inches matting on each side we get the 22" x 16" measurement I conjectured.

This I guess is the even rarer mini-Round Album poster....not a chance in the world. Why did a reprint sell for over $1000?

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Should this have been outed before it ended?

I'm going to guess that Olbermann at least lurks here...might have saved him a few bucks. But I guess the seller says they will guarantee it so....

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

There was no reason to think anyone would imagine it was real. I spoke with a board member about it several days ago and we both concluded it was fake on a glance.

If anybody owned what they thought was a real Round Album poster, would they feel that by cutting out reproduction baseball cards and gluing them onto the piece it would enhance the presentation? Those phony cards cinched it without even looking at the poster.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

It looked real to me and I thought it was just a poster I hadn't seen before. Since I had the guarantee I wasn't too worried though I agree it's always a hassle to do a return. I didn't get the guarantee on the cards as I didn't ask. I sort of thought they weren't good as they don't look right.

I think Keith O probably does lurk on the board. He's a smart guy and will be ok.....again, the seller seemed to be very honest. regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

So how does one of the most experienced 19th century baseball collectors not know this at a glance?

[Archive]

Posted By: Anthony S.

Looks like that consignor just locked up a spot on Countdown's "Worst Persons in the World."

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff S.

For some reason reprinters always screw up the borders. You'll notice in the real Anson, how the various colors seep in and out of alignment, especially with the title box on the bottom - there's no definitive straight border edge in the printing. The repro Anson has a straight crop all around, with an additional hefty border, muted colors, lack of detail etc.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

As I said I don't collect posters and just thought it was one I hadn't seen. As for the cards, as I said, I didn't care that much. I have emailed the winner as a courtesy heads up....best regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Keith O'Leary

I'd bet money its no good. I've seen similar put together items recently turning up at flea markets as well as other venues. You better be familiar with what you're buying today.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

An original poster is one of the great advertising displays in the hobby. An original would have rich deep colors, not the washed out ones that this one exhibits.

[Archive]

Posted By: David Smith

As I was going to post before (but didn't) Keith O has the financial where withal to take a hit on this if it is not real. He also has name recognition and the legal backing to get things straightened out if the deal goes bad.

Me? I don't have the cash to spend on something like this to even take a chance that it is real. If it is fake, I don't have the ability to take a hit on it if the seller does NOT take it back and refund my money and finally, I do not have the name recognition in the hobby or the legal backing to get into a protracted fight.

Keith O might be gambling that it is real and can fight back if it is not. Then again, he might have just seen it and liked it even knowing it was fake.

Maybe it is easier for him to buy a fake that is already framed then it is to go out and look for a less expensive fake. Maybe he wants to redecorate his office and NOT have to worry about something REAL getting damaged or stolen.

Who knows.

David

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

wow...an obvious fake...atleast to me. good thing there's a money back warranty. barry's analysis is spot on...just look at the colors...and the borders. another ebay lesson sponsored by net54.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anthony S.

That's a good point, David. Joe Scarborough does have access to Olbermann's office.

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

George Harris & Sons Litho. Co. (Philadelphia) did not print wide borders on their Subjects on any of their posters,
or their Goodwin Champions album. To illustrate this, here are two pages from my N162 album.

This poster is fake....and, the buyer is an idiot to pay that much for it.









TED Z collection

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Ted- I could have easily won this. I would have gotten my money back as Keith will, if it proves to be fake. I have done far more idiotic stuff....

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Ole buddy....if I knew you were bidding on this item....I would have instantly called you and warned you.

But, that was in the good old days when Ebay didn't conceal the bidder's ID's.


So, KO got KO'd on this fake.

But, it is not the 1st time. A few years back he was "duped" on a fake T206 Joe Doyle error card.....just
because it was in a rectangular plastic prison with a # on it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

It has become an absolutely ridiculous taboo of not "outing" ebay lots on this board, that you deem
suspicious, or a darn outright fakes. This Old Judge poster lot exemplifies the absurdity of this rule.

In the days when Ebay did not conceal the bidder's ID's, this outing "rule" had some merit. As you
would be able to contact known bidder(s) and warn them of a fake lot such as this one.

There is an powerful amount of vintage sportscards (and related items) expertise on this forum, and
to discourage members from identifying such fakes, is downright stupidity.

We should have the freedom to "out", when our expertise tells us we are looking at a phony piece on
ebay.
And, the usual suspects on this board that cry "foul".....be darned.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

I talked to Rob Lifson (and Barry) about the poster when the lot was first listed. He said 100% fake--no question.

[Archive]

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Whenever I see a poster or print I might have an interest in and am concerned whether it is genuine, the first thing I will do is compare its dimensions against those of a known original. If they vary, the item is a fake, period. It's fast and easy to do and it can save a lot of time and trouble down the road.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

So what you are saying is that you have never seen something for the first time, that didn't quite meet what you expected to see, and every single time that item has been a fake? wow......

[Archive]

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Leon,

What I thought I said, and if I didn't I'm saying it now, is that if you see a poster or print you are interested in but aren't sure it is real, you should compare its dimensions to those taken from a KNOWN original of the piece. If they vary, then what you're looking at is a fake.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Corey, how can you say that with any certainty? New discoveries are made all the time.

[Archive]

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Dan,

Maybe then I will learn something I have never before known to be true, but I am not aware of single instance of a vintage poster or lithographic print issued a particular year that came in varying dimensions (at least in regard to the 19th and early 20th century).

I remember some years ago being offered the Currier and Ives print "The American National Game of Baseball". I called a nationally known print expert I knew for advice whether the print was original. The first question he asked me was its dimensions. When I told them to him, he said they are different that those of known originals so I shouldn't waste my time further.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

Dan--Usually not in a "period" frame with four obviously fake N162s

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason L

sorry, I thought this thread was going to be about Frank...

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jay, I wasn't speaking towards this particular item, just Corey's generalization that a print or poster if it doesn't measure up to known examples automatically makes it a fake.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Dan- Corey's assertion that the measurement is among the most important things to look at for determining authenticity would probably be true 99% of the time.

If for example we found the first known N162 poster (no such thing exists) it would be fair to say that maybe it would be larger or smaller than an N28 poster. Therefore, its measurements might not be a good test.

However, N28 posters do exist and they measure 22" x 16". The chance of a variant N28 poster being found with different dimensions would be extremely unlikely. Not impossible, just very unlikely.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Well, sure Barry, but words mean things and Corey was talking in absolutes. I don't think there's room for absolutes in this hobby. New stuff is discovered on a fairly regular basis.

[Archive]

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

"However, N28 posters do exist and they measure 22" x 16". The chance of a variant N28 poster being found with different dimensions would be extremely unlikely. Not impossible, just very unlikely."

Not trying to beat a dead horse here but can you point to single instance of a 19th or early 20th century poster or lithographic print coming in different sizes? Yes, in theory, multiple plates of varying dimensions from which to strike the print could be manufactured. But doing so would be very cost ineffective, and I'm struggling to understand under what practical scenario it could be expected to happen.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

The chance of two identical designs in different sizes existing would be close to zero, for the exact reason you cited. However, a smaller poster with a somewhat different design (say a counter card) could exist.

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank B

This cost me $21 delivered. It's a nice frame job too.

[Archive]

Posted By: joe

It's a fake because I own the same poster.
Bought it on eBay last year for about $14.
Mine has the same print lines behind the text, the same aging around the edges, and is the same size - about 14 x 16, or so.
Mine was sold under the old "found it at an estate sale" BS.
At least he'll get his $ back - hopefully.

[Archive]

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Leon,

Morale of the story -- next time you see in some easy-to-overlook auction setting some spectacular 19th century advertising poster that would fit perfectly in my collection, please be sure to run it by me first so I can help you determine if it is original.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I will be sure to do that...... You ole shark.....

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Hey Leon- he spelled "moral" wrong. What penalty should we assess him?

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I saw that but wasn't going there......I make too many mistakes to throw rocks....

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

That's a very diplomatic response.