Interesting trivia about 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards...show us some of these rare gems

[RCMcKenzie]

Hi, Pat, I'm not understanding. Wasn't Byrne on St. Louis circa 1910? I have only casually followed the debate. Am I wrong to characterize Ted's position as "they look like T206, therefore they are T206." I know Leon and others say, "Burdick said T213, therefore they are T213." Do you think T213-1 Coupons are a type of Broder, an unlicensed knock-off of a T206, released at a later time, say 1912? Here's a Bridwell from 1919...

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Hi, Pat, I'm not understanding. Wasn't Byrne on St. Louis circa 1910? I have only casually followed the debate. Am I wrong to characterize Ted's position as "they look like T206, therefore they are T206." I know Leon and others say, "Burdick said T213, therefore they are T213." Do you think T213-1 Coupons are a type of Broder, an unlicensed knock-off of a T206, released at a later time, say 1912? Here's a Bridwell from 1919...

Rob, Ted's stance is the type 1's were printed in 1910 and I feel there is
sufficient evidence that they weren't printed during the t206 printings.

I don't think it matters in either opinion but Byrne was with Pittsburgh
in 1910 he was traded from St. Louis to Pittsburgh on August 19th 1909.

[jggames]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Hi, Pat, I'm not understanding. Wasn't Byrne on St. Louis circa 1910? I have only casually followed the debate. Am I wrong to characterize Ted's position as "they look like T206, therefore they are T206." I know Leon and others say, "Burdick said T213, therefore they are T213." Do you think T213-1 Coupons are a type of Broder, an unlicensed knock-off of a T206, released at a later time, say 1912? Here's a Bridwell from 1919...

Might be a good guess actually. It’s pretty easy to find newspaper articles and advertisements from 1909 to 1912 that include most of the American Tobacco and Liggett & Myers brands - American Beauty, Drummond (Drum), Carolina Brights, Old Mill, Piedmont. It’s pretty hard to find anything before 1912 that mentions “Coupon” brand.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by jggames

Might be a good guess actually. It’s pretty easy to find newspaper articles and advertisements from 1909 to 1912 that include most of the American Tobacco and Liggett & Myers brands - American Beauty, Drummond (Drum), Carolina Brights, Old Mill, Piedmont. It’s pretty hard to find anything before 1912 that mentions “Coupon” brand.

I wonder where T214 goes in the discussion. Liggett & Myers is on the backs of them with the factory 8 designation, like some T213-3.

Also, thanks for clarifying, Pat. I guess I need to check to see which backs Byrne was included in, and see when they were released.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by jggames

Might be a good guess actually. It’s pretty easy to find newspaper articles and advertisements from 1909 to 1912 that include most of the American Tobacco and Liggett & Myers brands - American Beauty, Drummond (Drum), Carolina Brights, Old Mill, Piedmont. It’s pretty hard to find anything before 1912 that mentions “Coupon” brand.

Jason

In 1909, the New Orleans Times-Picayune published an announcement that the American Tobacco Co. was introducing a new brand named COUPON to be produced in New Orleans.

Do some some research and you'll find the newspaper clippings of this fact.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jason

In 1909, the New Orleans Times-Picayune published an announcement that the American Tobacco Co. was introducing a new brand named COUPON to be produced in New Orleans.

Do some some research and you'll find the newspaper clippings of this fact.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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It was 1908 Ted

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

The following article shows a relationship between Coupon cigarettes and The American Tobacco company before the spring of 1910 as well as the use of quotation marks surrounding the word Coupon.

August 6, 1908 Times Picayune New Orleans



The same contest was run again by ATC in August 1909 giving away either Coupon or Picayune cigarettes.

[tedzan]

Thanks, that is one of the the newspaper clippings I was referring to. There is also another one which followed that one, published in 1909.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[jggames]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jason

In 1909, the New Orleans Times-Picayune published an announcement that the American Tobacco Co. was introducing a new brand named COUPON to be produced in New Orleans.

Do some some research and you'll find the newspaper clippings of this fact.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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My only point was it was easy to find the others and difficult to find Coupon...and it may lead to a conclusion that Coupon was playing catch up later in the game.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by jggames

My only point was it was easy to find the others and difficult to find Coupon...and it may lead to a conclusion that Coupon was playing catch up later in the game.

Jason

I'm not sure I understand your comment here.

The labelling on the 1910 COUPON cards with the QUOTES ...."COUPON" is because this was American Tobacco Company's new brand in 1910
when these cards were printed, and this brand was not yet an officially Registered TRADEMARK.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[RCMcKenzie]

One of the first topics I encountered in college was the Locke-Leibniz debate. I wrote a paper siding with Locke, as I thought he had a cleaner, simpler argument. Most of my classmates had chosen Leibniz.

I still think the best evidence are the back designs. To me, these three cards are from the same series, or 3 different series, but not 2 in one series, and 1 in another.

[jggames]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jason

I'm not sure I understand your comment here.

The labelling on the 1910 COUPON cards with the QUOTES ...."COUPON" is because this was American Tobacco Company's new brand in 1910
when these cards were printed, and this brand was not yet an officially Registered TRADEMARK.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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Hi Ted
My comment wasn’t referring to any trademark issues. When one looks up information about ATC’s breakup into ATC, Liggett & Meyers, and P. Lorillard in 1911 there are tons of articles about which brands go with which new company. All of the brands, including Polar Bear and Sweet Cap that I left off my original list are mentioned in various newspapers. I didn’t see any (not that it doesn’t exist) that mention Coupon. Just a point of reference. I actually do think Coupon Type-1 belongs with the T206s for the stylistic details you mention. When they were printed just seems to be harder to nail down.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by jggames

Hi Ted
My comment wasn’t referring to any trademark issues. When one looks up information about ATC’s breakup into ATC, Liggett & Meyers, and P. Lorillard in 1911 there are tons of articles about which brands go with which new company. All of the brands, including Polar Bear and Sweet Cap that I left off my original list are mentioned in various newspapers. I didn’t see any (not that it doesn’t exist) that mention Coupon. Just a point of reference. I actually do think Coupon Type-1 belongs with the T206s for the stylistic details you mention. When they were printed just seems to be harder to nail down.

Hi Jason

When the ATC Monopoly was broken up, here's how it went. Please note that the COUPON brand is included in this decision.
Now, tell me that COUPON was not already a marketed brand by 1910 ?

American Tobacco Co. Divesture (May 1911)....proceedings started circa 1910.

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
Coupon
King Bee
Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend

P. Lorillard received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

American Tobacco retained 37 per cent of the market:

Pall Mall
Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[tedzan]

Can't we cease this nit-picking, meaning-less crap. And try to have a more meaningful exchange. Damn it, once again a "hi-jacked" thread by the usual suspects ! !


Continuing......my Mickey Doolan brings us to 26 different 1910 COUPON cards on display so far in this thread. This number represents 38 % of this set.

So, there are many more to show. So, let's see some more of these rare gems.


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Note the hint of cardboard residue from the cigarette carton this card was pasted on.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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