Altered high grade E93s in Mile High?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scott, on every thread involving controversy, it seems, there will be at least one person who fancies himself above the fray and too cool for school, and who will look down on the participants with a mixture of boredom and condescension.

In real life gatherings such people wouldn't be invited to the gathering, or would at least not get a second invite. This is part of the price we pay for the right to be bombarded quickly with more information than we could ever possibly need.

As far as expecting more outrage over trimmed cards, many of us gave up long ago on holdered NM pre-war cards. I now assume they are all trimmed.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

In real life gatherings such people wouldn't be invited to the gathering, or would at least not get a second invite. This is part of the price we pay for the right to be bombarded quickly with more information than we could ever possibly need.

As far as expecting more outrage over trimmed cards, many of us gave up long ago on holdered NM pre-war cards. I now assume they are all trimmed.

In real life gatherings, people that try to impose their values on someone else usually get put in their place. I find nothing wrong with soaking a card to remove a stain to increase its value and, I think if you conducted a fair poll, many others feel the same way. If that violates your morals, so be it - don't participate in that activity - but don't come on here and tell others that they shouldn't do it.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

In real life gatherings, people that try to impose their values on someone else usually get put in their place. I find nothing wrong with soaking a card to remove a stain to increase its value and, I think if you conducted a fair poll, many others feel the same way. If that violates your morals, so be it - don't participate in that activity - but don't come on here and tell others that they shouldn't do it.

You and I are in agreement about soaking cards, but I don't see a problem with someone adamantly disagreeing with me about it. The issue to me is the difference in the way people express themselves in real life vs the internet. Flaming and trolling are out in real life, as is word manipulation and parsing. I am still amazed that people use those last two techniques in discussion forums - anyone with half a brain can see through them.

Also, in a discussion forum, the only way to be guaranteed a civil 'real life'-type conversation, is to do it via PM. Any public discussion is subject to almost any type of behavior imaginable. But I guess having a public discussion on the internet, trying to solicit good conversationalists would be akin to standing up in a coffee shop and yelling "excuse me - anyone here want to talk about card soaking? No assholes please."

You get the bad with the good.

[calvindog]

It's fruitless to have any real discussion on Net 54 about these issues because half the people have engaged in the very fraud being discussed. And while some will keep their mouths shut in order to not risk being outed, many others will do all that they can to obfuscate the issue, misdirect, or argue in favor of the fraud ("it's no big deal") in a useless attempt to get the heat off their area of fraud. Very tough to find genuinely objective people out here with no ulterior motives on these issues. The sad truth is the majority of hobbyists who have been buying and selling cards for decades have engaged in either shill bidding or card alteration, tax fraud, etc. relating to the hobby.

[Robert_Lifson]

Originally Posted by calvindog

It's fruitless to have any real discussion on Net 54 about these issues because half the people have engaged in the very fraud being discussed. And while some will keep their mouths shut in order to not risk being outed, many others will do all that they can to obfuscate the issue, misdirect, or argue in favor of the fraud ("it's no big deal") in a useless attempt to get the heat off their area of fraud. Very tough to find genuinely objective people out here with no ulterior motives on these issues. The sad truth is the majority of hobbyists who have been buying and selling cards for decades have engaged in either shill bidding or card alteration, tax fraud, etc. relating to the hobby.

I just wanted to add another type of fraud to the laundry list: consignors working with the auction house as co-conspirators to “pretend sell” items when no sale of any kind has occurred or in any way could even be interpreted as occurring, no invoice is even generated, no commissions are paid, nothing; the sale is just reported, and the item is secretly funneled back to the consignor at no transaction cost, but now with a reported historical auction sale price to reference, potentially making it easier for the consignor to sell his card at a later date (note: in this type of scheme, if the auction house/consignor shill bids were high enough, and had been sufficiently topped by a real bidder, then a sale would have occurred, though the winning bidder would have been cheated).

[4815162342]

Man, this is depressing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Man, this is depressing.

If you think cards are bad try memorabilia.