DSR below 4.3 and you can't sell?

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Posted By: Chris

So this new rule may be the thing that bothers me the most. If your DSR in any of the 4 categories falls below 4.3 you will be blocked from selling. I am not close to this on any but what about the people who get 10 people a month to fill out DSR's in the feedback and they leave (8) 4's and (2) 5's. That gets you blocked from selling. It seems absurd when you look at how they describe 4's:
How accurate was the item description? 4 is accurate
How satisfied were you with the seller's communication? 4 is satisfied
How quickly did the seller ship the item? 4 is quickly
How reasonable were the shipping and handling charges? 4 is reasonable
How can you suspend a seller for meeting and satisfying buyers expectations?

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Wow! They are shooting themselves in the foot with this one. Your analysis perfectly shows what a ludicrous rule change this is.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

I can sympathize with eBay in regards to the IRS/other international tax agencies, but it's things like this that make me wonder if they don't have a death wish.

Visit www.vintage-autographs.com for the hobby's finest selection of vintage baseball signatures.

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Posted By: Jimmy

I have emailed ebay about this issue, and the problems with the DSR. The issue I am having is that I am getting ratings when feedback is not being left. Example would be I currently have 2425 positive feedback and have a 4.6 for shipping cost; the next day feedback stays the same at 2425. The rating changes to 4.5 that same day. I only average about 30-40 auctions a month and have seen issues with this for the last month. I am concerned that buyers are not leaving proper feedback or there is a problem with the eBay system. With the new DSR standard this places a risk for sellers. In this past year I have limited my use on ebay, but still continue to have auctions.

I have really low shipping costs, so not sure what is going on

Jimmy

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Posted By: Chris

Who do we write to or call to voice our concerns about this? It really does seem absurd! I understand they are trying to rid the site of bad sellers but they will be losing a lot of good honest sellers if they do this.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Do you think it would really help? A letter-writing campaign saved "Cagney & Lacey" , but the good folks at eBay are hardly listening to their sellers if such ridiculous ideas are even being implemented in the first place.

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Posted By: Anonymous

"I have emailed ebay about this issue, and the problems with the DSR. The issue I am having is that I am getting ratings when feedback is not being left. Example would be I currently have 2425 positive feedback and have a 4.6 for shipping cost; the next day feedback stays the same at 2425. The rating changes to 4.5 that same day. I only average about 30-40 auctions a month and have seen issues with this for the last month. I am concerned that buyers are not leaving proper feedback or there is a problem with the eBay system. With the new DSR standard this places a risk for sellers. In this past year I have limited my use on ebay, but still continue to have auctions.

I have really low shipping costs, so not sure what is going on"



Jimmy, The reason you see a change in DSR's from day to day when no feedback is left is because Ebay goes on the DSR ratings that were left for the "last 12 months" So your average will change daily as DSR's get pushed out of the 12 month average each passing day..

If No feedback is left DSR's can't be left as well.

Hope this helps.
David.

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Posted By: Jimmy

David,

If that is the case my 12 month DSR for shipping is 4.8 not 4.5 which it states for the last 30 days. Thanks for the response helps me understand a little better. We will just have to what and see and move on

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I don't sell that much...maybe a few items per month, but one idiot ruined my perfect DSR and for the life of me I don't know why he did it...he gave me positive feedback and I shipped the item the same day I got his payment. Ebay says the star ratings are confidential, but I look at my feedback everytime I notice it going up and after his feedback was left for me I noticed he wrecked my perfect rating.

Also I have two buyers who have not paid me from auctions that ended 8 days ago when my auction states that payment is due within 7 days from the end of the auction....How come I can't "rate" them?

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Posted By: Mark

I wrote Ebay as well (after talking at length with one of their phone representatives...) I finally got the guy to concede that the new policy was severely flawed. He told me the concerns were valid, and that he would pass them on to senior management (yea, right).

The biggest problem for me is the "Shipping Cost" criteria. I am over a 4.9 on all criteria, except for Shipping Cost (where I have recently plummeted from a 4.9 to a 4.5). This is over the last 4 weeks, and is solely due to the recent USPS rate increases (and consumer's lack of understanding).

I have actually lost money on shipping over the last 2 months, and have still seen my rating decrease to a 4.5. At this pace, it is only a matter of weeks before I'm below a 4.3 (and banned from Ebay). It is the BUYER who is not in tune with new postal rates... not the seller. Yet ebay has put all the power in the hands of the buyer.

And even when giving a "4" rating, the buyer thinks that's pretty good (per Ebay's own description). I wonder if buyers even know that all 4's would be cause to have that seller banned? I suggested to Ebay that it be a 4.3 COMPOSITE rating across all 4 criteria (not just on a single unobtainable measure).

Sorry for the rant... but come October, it looks like the auction houses will be getting many more consignments from people like us!

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Posted By: Matt

Dan - how did you have a perfect shipping DSR? Do you pay the buyers instead of charging them shipping?

Mark - I agree with your sentiments in their entirety.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

I am guilty of not ALWAYS giving 5 stars for Shipping..   I certainly am not trying to them from selling on eBay and always thought it was a way of telling them, 'hey your shipping is a bit HIGH'.  Now that I know this could seriously damage their ability to sell on eBay I may rethink my approach.

 

martyOgelvie

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Using Detailed Seller Ratings for seller qualification is certainly problematic, partly because of the ambiguity of the English language and partly because not everyone pays attention to what they are doing when they fill out survey-type information. If you ask 100 random people to rate anything on a 1 to 5 scale, you will probably get at least 10 non-sensical answers -- such as picking a "1" to indicate "best" when you should pick "5". Nevertheless, sellers who are really doing a bad job in terms of service quality or inflated shipping charges will tend to have significantly lower DSR's over the long term, and eBay probably has an idea what ratings the main population of decent sellers are getting. So even if the ratings don't correspond very well to reality, and are occasionally skewed by off-the-wall responses, the system probably works reasonably well for the intended purpose.

Edited to add: as a buyer, if I am basically happy with how a transaction went, I will just click 5 stars for all the DSR's and move on. I will occasionally give less than 5 stars if the shipping was noticeably slow or the shipping charges were clearly above the actual cost. I pretty much ignore the rating descriptions such as 'very reasonable' and so on.

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Posted By: D. Bergin

Ebay continues to pit buyers against sellers. As has been discussed endlessly on forums everywhere since the DSR's came out.

If you go to a movie and are asked to rate it out of 5 stars, if you give it 4 stars it's a damn good movie................if you give it 5 stars, it's a freakin' all time classic.

On Ebay if you give somebody 5 stars, the seller just did what he was supposed to do. If you give somebody a 4 star rating, they may as well have kicked you in the groin while they were in the process of packaging up your item for you.

Why even have 1's, 2's and 3's as options? Hell, somebody hits a 1 by mistake and they can screw up most sellers DSR's for an entire month.

It hasn't been a problem for me, but it makes you wonder if it inevitably will be.

If I was new to Ebay and just started buying............yeah, I would think a 4 is a damn good rating.

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Posted By: Jimmy

Mark,

I think you explained things very well and that is exactly what is happening to me. I already started sending items to Hunt Auctions and others. I will still use eBay, but defiantly will consider other options and will what and see how all these changes will affect my listings.

Jimmy

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Posted By: jdrum

Help me here. I do not sell on ebay but buy fairly ofter. I always leave positive feedback but never bother to complete the DSRs. In the future will thsi negatively impact a seller if I continue doing so? Thanks.

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Posted By: D. Bergin

Help me here. I do not sell on ebay but buy fairly ofter. I always leave positive feedback but never bother to complete the DSRs. In the future will thsi negatively impact a seller if I continue doing so? Thanks.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't. Only way it would negatively effect him is if he needed your numbers to lift his DSR scores. I don't think it's fair to put that burden on the buyers either.

I'm pretty sure most of my customers don't even bother with the DSR's when they list feedback.........especially the repeat ones.

A lot of times I'll notice the Feedback scores go up quite a bit but the DSR's are pretty much static.

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

For me personally as a buyer, I find it very difficult, if not impossible, to mark down a seller on shipping cost. My feeling is that if you bid on that seller's item, then you've agreed to their shipping cost listed in the auction listing. If you don't like the shipping cost that's listed, DON'T BID, or at the very least, do consider the shipping cost when making your bid, and bid accordingly (that's what I always do). Now if the seller doesn't list a shipping cost (very rare in my experience), or they charge a markedly higher fee than what is listed (I've never had this happen), then that is a different thing altogether!

I think I've only marked down a seller on communication and shipping time. Just a couple of months ago, I won an item and paid via Paypal within 24 hours. The seller did not communicate at all, and took around a month to ship. I marked him down to a "2" on communication and "1" on speed. Otherwise, I've always marked everything as a "5".


Steve

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Posted By: Mark

Steve:
Your approach to the feedback ratings is the right one. Wish everyone took that approach....

Trouble is that there are infinite buyers that do not put the time or thought into it that you do. And many either think a "4" is good, or have some misconception of what the shipping should cost (based on the postal rates of years gone by).

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

As a buyer I've never given less than a 5* rating because I am also a seller and I know how difficult ebay is making it on their sellers. I've even given 5*'s to someone who took two weeks to ship an item I payed for with paypal. I'm patient and I'm not vindictive...I didn't even ask why it took that long..maybe the post office was to blame? maybe something came up in his life that took precedence to a trip to the post office? Don't know, don't care...why should I make his life more difficult over an extra week?

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Posted By: Mike Frohme

This one is an eye-opener to me, primarily as I have been exclusively a buyer.

I've given only one all-5* rating in my hundred+ eBay TXNs as buyer. Not because I wasn't happy with the sale, the transaction, communication, or the item - that's what a 4 is to me. A 5 means above and beyond - as a seller, you stand out from the rest for whatever reason in that category for this transaction.

We can't be all 5's all the time, else - as noted many times on this forum - what's the *&^*( point of even having the rating system to begin with. The whole notion of limiting your ability to sell based on this entirely subjective metric seems yet another shot in their foot. By subjective, I mean in the sense of what I posted above... one man's 4 (or even 3) is another man's 5 - its all about local context.

I've bought from many of you, both here and on eBay and always had good transactions. I feel I've always rated the eBay ones very fairly, and - not having had any bad experiences - am shocked that my not giving someone all 5's might impact their ability to sell.

The lowest I've given anyone is a 3 for communication as I never heard a word, and had to ask about a shipping delay. While the delay was resolved and an explanation was given, the initial silence of 10 days and me having to ask about status wasn't changeable after the fact.

--
Mike

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Posted By: Doug

I'm not really a big fan of this either. I ship for free most of the time and usually ship the same day if possible (next morning at the latest) and I don't have a 5 star rating in shipping costs or shipping time. Less than half of the buyers return the positive feedback that I've already left them so I really don't know what ebay expects sellers to do...

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Posted By: Anonymous

Some of your members end up with 4.3s due to logic from people like Frank Wakefield. Frank wrote, as an example....

I won 2 lots, a worn T206 and a worn T212. In the listing it had UPS shipping for $10.12, but the seller would mail for less and would combine shipping. So I bid low and won.


I paid him within 24 hours via Paypal. He shipped via the mail for $5.60.

I get the cards, leave him 2 positives, 4 stars some places, and 3 stars for shipping costs.

His listing says that he expects 5 stars on everything, and if he's not going to get that then something is wrong and to please contact him. I didn't do that.

'sonicadvantage' emails me that his DSRs (the stars) went down and that he's blocking me as a bidder, he leaves one positive feedback for me whining about me giving low DSRs.

******************

Now this is a fine example where a buyer didnt like the shipping cost, asked for a lower rate, the seller accepted the lower price, bought the items, paid for them, got the items in lightning speed, and then proceeded to screw the seller by leaving them 3s and 4s by his own admission. Frank is a 1400 feedback ebay member. He should know better that to not buy something if he doesnt agree with the terms. Not one time did he email the seller to voice his dissatisfaction or complaint.

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Posted By: leon

This post of yours is a very close gray area for being able to remain anonymous. It looks like it's all factual so it can stay (at least for now) but please be very careful and you really need to put your name on posts like that.....but I will make exceptions such as this when something looks to be all facts..........much appreciated.......

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Posted By: Matt

sonicadvantage, welcome to the board.

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Posted By: Eric B

I think the point is that for many folks, a "5" is going the extra mile, being exceptional. Having to negotiate with a seller to lower the rates to a reasonable amount does not get a "5" to many folks. A "5" would be having shipping costs already at a good rate.

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Posted By: Rob D.

If a seller advertises that it will be $15 to ship a card, and I bid knowing that, then how can I in good faith ding him for that after the fact? Is $15 too much? Probably. But doesn't a buyer have to take some responsibility? Shame on me if I don't adjust my bid accordingly to factor in an outrageous shipping charge.

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Posted By: Mike C

I completely agree with Rob D on the shipping. I refuse to bid on outrageous shipping - I won't even adjust my bid. That is my choice but be fair and reasonable with shipping and do not gouge me.

Personally, I haven't sold too many items but it really isn't that expensive. I bought a 30 back of brown envelopes from CVS for $3.29 and a package of bubble wrap for $3.50. I wrap the card in the bubble wrap (going around twice) and it costs about $1.85 to mail. All told, about $2.25 to mail a card first class. I charge $2.99. Plus, I email the buyer when I received payment including when I think I will mail the card (next day as my office is a block from the post office) and then email again when I actually mail it. Insurance is optional.

I have had nothing but 5 feedback across the board - when it is actually left.

All Ebay needs to do to fix the 4.3 rating is to rid itself of the 12 month time frame. Keep it a fixed, lifetime rating based upon the actual feedback and not formula based.

Otherwise, I usually mark everyone a 5 unless it is really bad communication.

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Posted By: Eric B

I agree as well. If shipping is outrageous I won't bid or I will adjust it accordingly. But if I win, and leave positive feedback for the agreement, how do I answer the following specific DSR question?

How reasonable were the shipping and handling fees?

Certainly not a "5". Nor a "4".

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Posted By: Mike Mccullough

The DSR system is definately flawed. The only way to win is to offer free shipping. I think that is what Ebay is trying to steer everyone towards..

Last month my Ebay bill was over 3k so I had to offer free shipping on abunch of cheapies to get my DSR up,,,, just to qualify for 15% off my fees.. (This was no easy chore to get to the 15% level!)
My problem with the DSR system is the honesty /integrity in which buyers use it. If one little thing about the transaction is flawed,, (lets say slow shipping caused by USPS)then the buyer is all ticked off and rates you crappy out of spite in all categories...

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Posted By: Rob D.

Point well taken.

Edited to add that another flaw of the system is that -- I'm guessing -- a good number of buyers don't bother leaving feedback when a transaction is fine, but you can bet they'll leave it when someone isn't to their liking.

Purely anecdotal: I recently shipped a couple items to buyers before I received their checks because I recognized their user IDs and they have really good feedback. I charged $5 shipping, and on both these items that amount didn't cover the postage and insurance. I'm still waiting for feedback. Seriously, if that kind of service doesn't warrant positive ratings, then I just have to shrug my shoulders and move on -- and be thankful I do eBay as a hobby and not as a business.

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Posted By: Eric Pugh

this is a textbook example of a wonderful company that got so big it killed itself. it's almost as if their leadership wants them to fail. out of touch, stock tanking, stupid changes, pissing off their true customers, just insane.

this should be a case study for every business student in America on how not to run a business.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

A few posts back up there was the idea, as I understood it, that if a buyer bid on something he's agreeing to the listed postage, and should not then complain that it is high.


I can't agree with that.


From time to time I bid on something I want that has postage at about twice what makes sense, more than twice what the seller spends on postage. That is unreasonable and high postage in my mind. I've agreed to pay it, but that agreement doesn't make it reasonable.

I think part of what is happening is that eBay was responding to high postage to avoid part of the commission. Imagine a T206 worth about $20, it is listed on eBay with $8 shipping. Maybe folks would bid up to about $15 to $18 or so... not as much as they'd have bid with $2.50 shipping. The sale price is less, eBay gets less, the seller makes up the difference on the shipping.

I do agree that this DSR stuff is a mess as currently constructed. 4 sounds good according to eBay's description, but that isn't so with how they want a 4.3 average. So eBay needs to drop that down to 3.7 or 3.8...

They are killing a good thing....

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Posted By: Eric B

I want to clarify that I am not advocating some of the evil things Ebay has done. I just wanted to point out that some of us older folks don't automatically follow grade inflation. A "4" is very good in my beliefs. The fault lies with how Ebay explains the grades and is too low if you sell to certain folks.

Also, while I believe "4 out of 5" is very good, I almost always leave "5's" since I understand the consequences. Getting kicked off for 4.3 is too low.

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Posted By: Robert Klevens

If you have less than DSRs in a 30 day period you get no final fee discount.

I had $3000 in sales last month selling 16 items to a total of 6 winners. At the beginning of the month I had a 20% discount off the final fees. When the Ebay invoice came I had no discount because I didn't have a total of 10 DSRs in the past 30 days. Am I supposed to limit each winner to one item so I have enough winners to get my DSRs? What about the winners that don't leave feedback or respond to the DSR, it is not fair. Ebay is crazy.

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Posted By: Mark

Great point by Rob D... If a buyer is content he/she is much less likely to leave feedback than a buyer who needs to vent. So the good seller is inadvertantly punished, as his DSR rating will unfairly suffer.

Postage and shipping cost is the biggest issue here, IMO. This thread exists on the "Card" side, where shipping costs are pretty standard, uniform and well understood. But I can assure you that shipping odd-shaped things like pennants, bats, trophies and the like take on new challenges with the severe postal rate hikes.

Most buyers are not in tune with the new shipping costs, and to punish a good seller for buyers' naivety is ludicrous. Ebay needs to relax its 4.3 threshold on shipping, or eliminate shipping cost as one of their measured criteria. I would replace it with "quality of packaging" which I have always thought should be measured, anyway.

If Ebay is stuck on the seemingly random 4.3 number, another alternative would be to require a 4.3 on all four measures COMBINED. A composiote rating would be a much more equitable solution than the nonsense they're proposing for October.

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Posted By: martindl

As a seller I think theres a fairly simple way to address the cost of postage and packing. If you buy from me you pay exact postage plus a minimal charge for packaging, usually a dollar or less (because thats all it costs).
In the listing I charge what I think it will cost, say $4, and then if the total is less than that I refund the difference. I send the buyer an email stating what the exact postage charge was and itemize the packaging fees. I don't charge for things like tape and if I use materials that I already have (i.e. I don't buy new) then I don't charge anything.
I state that upfront in all my auctions. People seem to appreciate that they're being treated fairly. I'm surprised more people don't do it.

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Posted By: Matt

Martin - I do exactly that, and while all my other DSRs are 4.9+, my S&H DSR is about 4.5. People just don't like to pay shipping.

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Posted By: Mark

My situation is identical to Matt's. Well over a 4.9 on the first three criteria; barely clinging to a 4.5 on shipping (which has dropped from a 4.9, in conjunction with the most recent postal rate hike).

If/when it gets down below 4.3 (which I expect will be soon), ebay will have banned a seller with 100% positive feedback for 7 years running (who never received one neutral or a negative). Hard to believe that's what they really want.

I would think stockholders would be concerned as well... I would be selling if I owned their stock.